LNER Stevenage Pickup/Setdown

[Hadders]

Making short distance passengers between London and Stevenage (sub 30 minute journey) use Thameslink trains to free up seats on LNER for long distance passengers and take their higher fares, is exactly how you'd increase revenue to recover from the long term effects of Covid.

LNER for years encouraged people to travel on their services between Stevenage and Kings Cross by selling dedicated LNER only tickets.

The LNER trains I see at Stevenage typically have empty seats.

 

[redreni]

Given that, at least at my TOC, the conditions of free travel are that you have to give up your seat for a paying customer I don't see it being the same as regular traveller. The reason the pick up/set down rules are in place is to stop people taking up seats for a minor part of the journey when other options are available (especially, I expect, wheelchair or bike spaces) and leaving those berths empty for most of the service as a result.

Which could be solved more proportionately by not issuing seat reservations - or at the very least not forcing people to have seat reservations - if they are only travelling between London and Stevenage.

The most practical and easiest way to do this, as @yorkie has mentioned, is to have the pick-up/set-down only restriction but not enforce it. That way, nobody travelling between London and Stevenage will have a seat reservation.

If on the way out of London they take an unreserved seat from a longer-distance traveller who also doesn't have a seat reservation for that particular service, the worst case scenario is the seat will become available for the longer distance travellers when the Stevenage passenger alights.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which could be solved more proportionately by not issuing seat reservations - or at the very least not forcing people to have seat reservations - if they are only travelling between London and Stevenage.

The most practical and easiest way to do this, as @yorkie has mentioned, is to have the pick-up/set-down only restriction but not enforce it. That way, nobody travelling between London and Stevenage will have a seat reservation.

I'm fairly sure (correct me if I'm wrong) you can apply counted places for one pair of stations and actual seat reservations for another pair of stations on the same train? That would achieve what is suggested.

I'm not a fan of having restrictions or rules in any context that are not enforced. See also "compulsory" reservations. If the rule is worth having enforce it, if the rule is not worth having don't have it. One could even argue that having rules that are sometimes optional is disability discriminatory, because it can be quite a big issue to e.g. autistic people.

 

[35B]

LNER for years encouraged people to travel on their services between Stevenage and Kings Cross by selling dedicated LNER only tickets.

The LNER trains I see at Stevenage typically have empty seats.

Yet my experience on the trains I use is very different, with a Stevenage exodus making space really hard to manage.

 

[Hadders]

Yet my experience on the trains I use is very different, with a Stevenage exodus making space really hard to manage.

Also, anyone boarding LNER at Stevenage to go north or alighting coming south means an empty seat between Kings Cross and Stevenage.

Pick-up and set down means that capacity is wasted.

 

[35B]

Also, anyone boarding LNER at Stevenage to go north or alighting coming south means an empty seat between Kings Cross and Stevenage.

Pick-up and set down means that capacity is wasted.

Definitions of "wasted" vary; as a longer distance traveller, I have found the Stevenage stops and associated mass exoduses (my morning trains didn't call there and I've not yet travelled on the new timetable) deeply irritating.

 

[WeGoAgain]

Definitions of "wasted" vary; as a longer distance traveller, I have found the Stevenage stops and associated mass exoduses (my morning trains didn't call there and I've not yet travelled on the new timetable) deeply irritating.

Yet, had you needed to board at Stevenage, I'd imagine you'd find it rather convenient. - It's all about perspective/selfishness. Not aimed at you specifically.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Yet my experience on the trains I use is very different, with a Stevenage exodus making space really hard to manage.

The only way I would see it as an issue would be if the Stevenage passengers make the train so full that longer-distance passengers cannot physically board it at Kings Cross.

Otherwise, anyone without a reservation who ends up standing would only be standing for 15 minutes or so and would then be able to swoop into the seats vacated by the Stevenage exodus.

Southbound, anyone boarding at Stevenage would only get a seat if not being used by a long-distance passenger anyway.

 

[redreni]

Definitions of "wasted" vary; as a longer distance traveller, I have found the Stevenage stops and associated mass exoduses (my morning trains didn't call there and I've not yet travelled on the new timetable) deeply irritating.

There may not be a way to fix this without irritating anybody, then, because it is certainly deeply irritating when you buy an ostensibly flexible ticket and are then told you have to wait while perfectly good trains come and go, because of some goofy rule.

On the list of life's irritations that may need remedial action, being on a train that stops at a place you don't want to go, and having to wait while other people get off or on, comes approximately nowhere in my book.

If they want to make these trains pick up or set down only in the data so that journey planners don't steer people to use them between London and Stevenage, fine.

Trying to stop people boarding or alighting contrary to the restriction, however, would be entirely at odds with the stated objective of only having a 45s dwell time at Stevenage, so I hope that won't happen.

Interested to hear from anybody who has (or whose 'friend' has) tried to board at Kings Cross with a Stevenage ticket, or tried to board at Stevanage, since the 14th? Were you barked at? Ignored? Was the train held while staff attempted to prevent you travelling?

 

[35B]

The only way I would see it as an issue would be if the Stevenage passengers make the train so full that longer-distance passengers cannot physically board it at Kings Cross.

Otherwise, anyone without a reservation who ends up standing would only be standing for 15 minutes or so and would then be able to swoop into the seats vacated by the Stevenage exodus.

Southbound, anyone boarding at Stevenage would only get a seat if not being used by a long-distance passenger anyway.

The issue was northbound at King's Cross, and because of the mixing up of two very different flows. Something can be an issue before you get to so full that no one can board - passenger comfort and environment are also considerations, even on Azumas.

 

[redreni]

The issue was northbound at King's Cross, and because of the mixing up of two very different flows. Something can be an issue before you get to so full that no one can board - passenger comfort and environment are also considerations, even on Azumas.

Honestly, anyone upset by rubbing shoulders with the wrong sort of people should consider travelling by chauffeur driven limousine. I really am unconvinced that anything ought to be done about this perceived problem.

 

[35B]

Honestly, anyone upset by rubbing shoulders with the wrong sort of people should consider travelling by chauffeur driven limousine. I really am unconvinced that anything ought to be done about this perceived problem.

Nothing to do with who the people are, everything to do with the churn and erosion of the benefit of a longer journey as working time.

 

[KNN]

Nothing to do with who the people are, everything to do with the churn and erosion of the benefit of a longer journey as working time.

I agree, it doesn't seem unreasonable to want to avoid being cramped in an intercity train when half the people are only going one stop and could have taken a different one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree, it doesn't seem unreasonable to want to avoid being cramped in an intercity train when half the people are only going one stop and could have taken a different one.

It's also easier for LNER to run 5 car trains at quieter times of day on the long distance services if they aren't going to have to deal with thousands of commuters for one stop and then run nearly empty north of Stevenage. The thing is, the commuter peaks and IC peaks aren't quite the same - the IC peak is typically a bit later in the day* but also overridingly Friday evening/Sunday afternoon when commuting is fairly quiet.

If you mostly only have longer trains as Avanti do (bar the small number of 805s that largely only run on the North Wales services) that is less of an issue, though there are already pick up/set down restrictions at MKC during some parts of the commuter peak.

* As has often been noted, 9am in person meetings involving travel are largely a bit of a myth - most commuters are aiming for being at their desk by somewhere between 8 and 9, whereas business travellers are much more likely to be aiming for about 10 when their host has got in, had a coffee and is ready to receive them.

 

[87015]

I agree, it doesn't seem unreasonable to want to avoid being cramped in an intercity train when half the people are only going one stop and could have taken a different one.

But its ok for those people to be put onto F&S (as reported upthread) services, with the knock on to people from other stations on those services are now further wedged in, because they are lesser than your LNER passengers who must have half empty peak trains? GTR capacity appears to have been reduced at the same time with the 1827 and 1842 off the Cross binned and other Peterboroughs downgraded to 700s vice 387, although i haven't looked at the detail. Can't see any as fast as the LNERs either.

 

[bramling]

But its ok for those people to be put onto F&S (as reported upthread) services, with the knock on to people from other stations on those services are now further wedged in, because they are lesser than your LNER passengers who must have half empty peak trains? GTR capacity appears to have been reduced at the same time with the 1827 and 1842 off the Cross binned and other Peterboroughs downgraded to 700s vice 387, although i haven't looked at the detail.

There’s still reduced peak GTR capacity to Stevenage compared with the original May 18 plan. All bar one of the Peterborough extras in both peaks are now 8-car, and you’re right that many are class 700, so a reduction in seating availability compared to when the majority were 365. There are also no later evening Peterborough extras since Covid.

 

[redreni]

I agree, it doesn't seem unreasonable to want to avoid being cramped in an intercity train when half the people are only going one stop and could have taken a different one.

The litmus test for that is whether you would go up to somebody who you knew was only going one stop to Stevenage, point out they are making the train cramped for you and put it to them that there are plenty of other trains they could have caught.

If you feel that might come across rude, then maybe it's not such a reasonable position to adopt?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The litmus test for that is whether you would go up to somebody who you knew was only going one stop to Stevenage, point out they are making the train cramped for you and put it to them that there are plenty of other trains they could have caught.

If you feel that might come across rude, then maybe it's not such a reasonable position to adopt?

I think people would more fear being punched in the face than considering it wasn't a reasonable statement. Very rarely does confronting someone who is acting in an unreasonable manner end well, particularly not when what they are doing is permitted.

In effect it's the same thing as confronting someone who parks their huge rusty van in front of your lounge window instead of their own because they don't like it blocking their light. This is unreasonable behaviour, but isn't illegal. But someone who would do it would not react kindly to being called out on it.

 

[35B]

The litmus test for that is whether you would go up to somebody who you knew was only going one stop to Stevenage, point out they are making the train cramped for you and put it to them that there are plenty of other trains they could have caught.

If you feel that might come across rude, then maybe it's not such a reasonable position to adopt?

No, the litmus test is whether you could reasonably go to an operator and ask them to make the journey more pleasant by dealing with that short distance travel. I don't have an issue with those using the booked trains; the problem is the effect they have en masse on an already busy train

 

[bramling]

No, the litmus test is whether you could reasonably go to an operator and ask them to make the journey more pleasant by dealing with that short distance travel. I don't have an issue with those using the booked trains; the problem is the effect they have en masse on an already busy train

Has there been any suggestion that LNER have received complaints about trains being occupied by Stevenage passengers? If LNER passengers find Stevenage passengers a problem then there are plenty of LNER services which don’t call there.

 

[blimmo]

The issue was northbound at King's Cross, and because of the mixing up of two very different flows. Something can be an issue before you get to so full that no one can board - passenger comfort and environment are also considerations, even on Azumas.

I think "passenger comfort and environment" are less important considerations for a transport system than... transporting people. Sure make the experience as nice as possible but not at the cost of getting people to stevenage (which is going to be the cost of the pick up and set down restrictions if the alternatives are full and standing).

 

[redreni]

No, the litmus test is whether you could reasonably go to an operator and ask them to make the journey more pleasant by dealing with that short distance travel. I don't have an issue with those using the booked trains; the problem is the effect they have en masse on an already busy train

Except the people at the operator's customer services department have to be polite when they reply to you, whether you are being reasonable or not. Which makes raising the point with them a much less reliable test of reasonableness.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Except the people at the operator's customer services department have to be polite when they reply to you, whether you are being reasonable or not. Which makes raising the point with them a much less reliable test of reasonableness.

Neither is an effective test of reasonableness, because someone being unreasonable will almost never respond well to being called out on it.

 

[styles]

A question for those in the know - do set down/pick up only restrictions actually get enforced? I was on the Caledonian Sleeper once and someone boarded at Newtonmore, staying on til Aviemore, and the staff member just said to him you really shouldn't board here as it's for dropping off only, and that was it. Wasn't given any penalty, wasn't kicked off at Kingussie, etc.

 

[35B]

I think "passenger comfort and environment" are less important considerations for a transport system than... transporting people. Sure make the experience as nice as possible but not at the cost of getting people to stevenage (which is going to be the cost of the pick up and set down restrictions if the alternatives are full and standing).

A transport system needs to be about more than just moving people from A to B - if that were all it were, then what's wrong with cattle trucks?

The point is that there are different service offers, and what is offered on the ECML operator is different to what is offered on the GN suburban operation. That conditions the sense of what is reasonable - hence this longer distance traveller's objections to short hop usage to Stevenage. Other examples (Reading, Coventry - New St - Wolverhampton) also exist; their solubility varies.

 

[renegademaster]

A transport system needs to be about more than just moving people from A to B - if that were all it were, then what's wrong with cattle trucks?

The point is that there are different service offers, and what is offered on the ECML operator is different to what is offered on the GN suburban operation. That conditions the sense of what is reasonable - hence this longer distance traveller's objections to short hop usage to Stevenage. Other examples (Reading, Coventry - New St - Wolverhampton) also exist; their solubility varies.

Yes some people standing with you for 15 minutes is the same thing as being packed into a cattle car

 

[35B]

Yes some people standing with you for 15 minutes is the same thing as being packed into a cattle car

Of course it's not. But if the only consideration is how you move people from A to B, that is where the logic eventually gets you.

If you find that an offensive characterisation, turn the question round. Why is it that long distance operators have tended to offer different layouts and service levels as compared to outer suburban operators, which are different again from inner suburban?

The answer is that they're different markets, with different expectations.

The issue is dealing with what happens when they overlap, as is the case with LNER's services calling at Stevenage. My view is that this is a bad fit with the intercity service, because it undermines the longer distance offer provided by the long distance operator. That's based on my experience using that operator, over a number of years.

 

[Silver Cobra]

Also, anyone boarding LNER at Stevenage to go north or alighting coming south means an empty seat between Kings Cross and Stevenage.

Pick-up and set down means that capacity is wasted.

This is very much what will be happening for at least one seat on the 0733 Kings Cross to Newcastle and 1527 Newcastle to Kings Cross services tomorrow, as I will be travelling on those services between Stevenage and Newcastle (taking the opportunity to try the new direct service).

It will also be an interesting test to see if anyone alights off the former when it arrives in Stevenage, and if anyone tries to board the latter when I alight it in the evening.

 

[James90012]

Looks like the sensible has prevailed, National Rail advising GTR tickets are valid on LNER this evening to Stevenage and Peterborough due to disruption.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Of course it's not. But if the only consideration is how you move people from A to B, that is where the logic eventually gets you.

If you find that an offensive characterisation, turn the question round. Why is it that long distance operators have tended to offer different layouts and service levels as compared to outer suburban operators, which are different again from inner suburban?

The answer is that they're different markets, with different expectations.

The issue is dealing with what happens when they overlap, as is the case with LNER's services calling at Stevenage. My view is that this is a bad fit with the intercity service, because it undermines the longer distance offer provided by the long distance operator. That's based on my experience using that operator, over a number of years.

Perhaps the solution is for LNER Southbound trains not to stop at Stevenage in the weekday morning peak and for LNER Northbound trains not to stop at Stevenage in the weekday evening peak. This would also encourage those who want to join and leave LNER train services at Stevenage to avoid travelling on trains in weekday peak flows.