Euston to liv lime street fine

[FrancisMcg]

Hi

I was fined on the above train £94 after accidentally adding a railcard discount of ‘Jobseekers allowance’ to one of my two tickets, rather than the 26-30 railcard discount card.

The other ticket had the 26-30 railcard discount added. I also had two tickets booked earlier in the day directly with West Midlands Trains that had 2x 26-30 railcards added to those tickets, but I had refunded them due to a change of plans.

Adding the jobseekers allowance was a complete mistake and not something I have ever done before (neither even knew it gave more discount % than the 26-30). The train ticket lady showed no compassion despite my protests.

I have now had my first appeal rejected, despite extensive supporting documentation, including screenshots of my old cancelled tickets that had the correct railcards added.

Any advice is appreciated as I prepare a re-appeal.

Thanks

 

[z444z]

Selecting the incorrect railcard by accident when the discount is less or the same might be a “compelling reason” why the appeal should be accepted, but in this case you selected a railcard providing a greater discount.

You note that the member of staff showed “no compassion” but you have in fact been let off lightly with a penalty fare - often when railcard misuse is suspected your details are taken for investigation so they can check if you’ve done it before and charge you for those occasions too, and if you don’t cooperate they’ll criminally prosecute you. Even if they found no previous occurrences, admin fees for settlements are usually around £150, so you’d be looking at nearly £200 compared to the £94 penalty fare you’ve been given.

The only avenue of appeal would be a technical one, so we need to check if the penalty fare is compliant with the legislation. Could you please upload an image of the penalty fare notice? Redact personal details such as names and reference number, but we need to see date, time, location issued, to and from stations etc. Also please could you confirm exactly which train you were on?

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi

I was fined on the above train £94 after accidentally adding a railcard discount of ‘Jobseekers allowance’ to one of my two tickets, rather than the 26-30 railcard discount card.

The other ticket had the 26-30 railcard discount added. I also had two tickets booked earlier in the day directly with West Midlands Trains that had 2x 26-30 railcards added to those tickets, but I had refunded them due to a change of plans.

Adding the jobseekers allowance was a complete mistake and not something I have ever done before (neither even knew it gave more discount % than the 26-30). The train ticket lady showed no compassion despite my protests.

I have now had my first appeal rejected, despite extensive supporting documentation, including screenshots of my old cancelled tickets that had the correct railcards added.

Any advice is appreciated as I prepare a re-appeal.

Thanks

You need to show us the paperwork associated with this and the wording you used in your appeal for people to check and advise you of your options. Blank out any personal details and ref numbers.

Railcard issues like this are often not dealt with by a Penalty Fare. Is that what you were issued with? ( technically these are not fines though it might seem like that). Railcard related ‘errors’ are often referred for back office investigations.

If you can share more information then experts here can advise you on your best options.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi

I was fined on the above train £94 after accidentally adding a railcard discount of ‘Jobseekers allowance’ to one of my two tickets, rather than the 26-30 railcard discount card.

The other ticket had the 26-30 railcard discount added. I also had two tickets booked earlier in the day directly with West Midlands Trains that had 2x 26-30 railcards added to those tickets, but I had refunded them due to a change of plans.

Adding the jobseekers allowance was a complete mistake and not something I have ever done before (neither even knew it gave more discount % than the 26-30). The train ticket lady showed no compassion despite my protests.

I have now had my first appeal rejected, despite extensive supporting documentation, including screenshots of my old cancelled tickets that had the correct railcards added.

Any advice is appreciated as I prepare a re-appeal.

Thanks

Please share the Penalty Fare paperwork with your name and address removed. You're lucky to only be Penalty Fared for this, it is very difficult to accidentally select a Jobseekers Plus Discount as it is midway down the list when scrolling and it is by some distance the most abused of all the railcard discounts.

Nothing you have said so far would result in a Penalty Fare being appealed successfully but you may have a technical line of defence if the notice was filled in improperly.

Please also tell us exactly which train you were on (the departure time from Euston)

 

[FrancisMcg]

See fine attached and ticket. We were on the 1:46 from Euston to Stafford to then change and up to liverpool, this part was cancelled.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Likely the train in question was on its approach to Milton Keynes Central (first stop) when the PF was issued, this on 03DEC2025.

Realtime Trains | 1346 London Euston to Crewe | 03/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 1346 departure from London Euston to Crewe on 03/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[z444z]

See fine attached and ticket. We were on the 1:46 from Euston to Stafford to then change and up to liverpool, this part was cancelled.

Absolutely outrageous to charge a penalty fare all the way to Liverpool with the next stop being Milton Keynes. An appeal should be successful.

 

[Watershed]

The PF was not issued in accordance with the Regulations. You can only be issued a PF to a station served by the train you are on - see PF Regulation 5(5A):

(5A) In respect of England, the penalty fare charged under paragraph (1) to a person travelling by or present on a train authorises a person to travel to—

(a)a station in England at which the train is due to make a scheduled call that they may specify, if the collector considers that this is reasonable in all the circumstances; or

(b)otherwise, the next station at which the train is due to make a scheduled call

Your train only went as far as Crewe so you could not lawfully be issued with a PF to Liverpool. You should also have been given the option of only having it issued to Milton Keynes - the next stop at the time you were issued with the PF (see https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L33416/2025-12-03#allox_id=0 - the train didn't reach Milton Keynes until 14:24 whereas your PF was issued at 14:20).

Getting a new Railcard-discounted ticket from Milton Keynes on your phone (or from the conductor) would have been cheaper than getting a Penalty Fare all the way to Liverpool therefore this isn't a 'technical' argument in any sense.

I'm sure others will help you with drafting an appeal on that basis.

 

[FrancisMcg]

Thanks for your comments, any help with drafting the appeal is appreciated!

 

[z444z]

How’s this for a starting point? (OP please don’t send this yet, wait for further feedback from others!)

To whom it may concern,

I am writing to appeal against the penalty fare notice (PFN), reference [REFERENCE], issued to me on 03/12/2025. It was issued to me on board 1U37, the 13:46 WMR service from London Euston to Crewe. I was travelling from London Euston to Stafford. I then intended to get a second train from Stafford to Liverpool Lime Street, although my this train was cancelled and so [BRIEFLY EXPLAIN WHAT YOU DID INSTEAD].

I am appealing on the basis that regulation 5(5A) of The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 was not complied with because the PFN was issued to a station which was not a scheduled call of the train I was on.

The PFN was issued at 14:20, at which time the train had just passed through Bletchley station on approach to the next scheduled call, Milton Keynes Central, and therefore the PFN should have been issued to Milton Keynes Central unless I requested otherwise (which I didn’t). Regardless, Liverpool Lime Street was not a station at which the train was due to make a scheduled call, and so even if I had requested it (I didn’t) a PFN cannot be issued to there as it was not a station served by the train I was on.

I submit that this PFN is not compliant with the Regulations, specifically 5(5A), and therefore the appeal must be upheld.

[SIGN OFF]

 

[Watershed]

That reads well - the OP might just want to add in the part about it being to their financial disadvantage that it was done this way. In other words, they're not just appealing on a 'technicality' - they are genuinely worse off because of the rules not being followed.

 

[z444z]

Thanks @Watershed - second draft below incorporating your suggestion as well as rewording a couple bits.

OP let us know your thoughts on this! It also might be a good idea to run by us what you plan to put in the part where I put [BRIEFLY EXPLAIN WHAT YOU DID INSTEAD].

To whom it may concern,

I am writing to appeal against the penalty fare notice (PFN), reference [REFERENCE], issued to me on 03/12/2025. It was issued on board 1U37, the 13:46 WMR service from London Euston to Crewe. I was travelling from London Euston to Stafford. I then intended to get a second train from Stafford to Liverpool Lime Street, although this train was cancelled and so [BRIEFLY EXPLAIN WHAT YOU DID INSTEAD].

I am appealing on the basis that regulation 5(5A) of The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 was not complied with because the PFN was issued to a station which was not a scheduled call of the train I was on.

The PFN was issued at 14:20, at which time the train had just passed through Bletchley station on approach to the next scheduled call, Milton Keynes Central, and therefore the regulations require the PFN to have been issued to Milton Keynes Central unless I requested otherwise (which I didn’t). Even if I had requested it (I didn’t), the regulations would not allow the PFN to be issued to Liverpool Lime Street because it was not a station at which the train was due to make a scheduled call.

Due to the Regulations not being followed I have been significantly overcharged. I submit that this PFN is not compliant with the Regulations, specifically 5(5A), and therefore the appeal must be upheld.

[SIGN OFF]

 

[fandroid]

I'm a bit confused as to what tickets you were travelling with. You say two, and that one had the incorrect Railcard applied, but presumably the other was a valid ticket. Were they split tickets for the whole journey (Euston to Liverpool) or single tickets for a return journey?

If they were splits, let us know where the split was.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I'm a bit confused as to what tickets you were travelling with. You say two, and that one had the incorrect Railcard applied, but presumably the other was a valid ticket. Were they split tickets for the whole journey (Euston to Liverpool) or single tickets for a return journey?

If they were splits, let us know where the split was.

Looks like a split at Stafford from the images posted

 

[Straus]

Which booking portal did you use when you incorrectly selected Jobcentre Plus Discount Travel Card?

 

[FrancisMcg]

Hi all, I filed my appeal again based on the above wording a few days ago and the appeal has been rejected once again. Pretty ridiculous for them to come back with ‘Being confident that AS have followed the correct procedure….’ (See attached) When I have stated how AS didn’t follow procedure. The tickets were a split ticket from euston to stafford and then on to liv lime street, we actually changed at crewe rather than stafford due to the cancellation. The tickets were booked on TrainPal who have been of no help at all.

Any further advice is appreciated, could I go to the ombudsman? I am not sure how I can make my points any clearer.

 

[Watershed]

It is worthwhile persisting to a third (final) stage appeal. In our experience, many valid appeals are only accepted then, being rejected almost without a second glance by the first and second stage assessors. The final appeal is decided by an independent committee so perhaps that means a bit more time and thought goes into each decision.

The very fact that they are referring to it as a "fine" - it is nothing of the sort - shows that the assessors deciding the first and second stage appeals are completely unqualified to do their jobs. That, in itself, might be worth an internal complaint with the appeals organisation but I don't think there is any external body that can hold them to account, unfortunately

 

[z444z]

Ridiculous for them to uphold a penalty fare issued to a station that isn’t even served by the train it was issued on. This is one of the most clear-cut penalty fare appeals I’ve seen and still they deny.

At least previously you had the option of letting them take it to a civil claim and losing, but you can’t even do that anymore without risking prosecution. A really sorry state of affairs for passengers.

Definitely appeal again. Does anyone have any suggestions for changes to wording, or should the OP just submit the same thing again?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Does anyone have any suggestions for changes to wording, or should the OP just submit the same thing again?

Unless we're certain that the third appeal doesn't see the paperwork from previous appeals (and that would be daft: I would expect them to see the previous papers) then it surely makes sense to additionally spell out why the previous decisions were wrong. Otherwise I can see the temptation for appeal 3 to look at the result of appeal 2 and say 'looks OK to me - I'll say the same': while that obviously wouldn't be good practice on the part of appeal 3, it's better to lead them carefully in the direction that you want them to go.

 

[AlterEgo]

The people who deal with these people are either professional trolls or unbelievably thick, so you do need to talk down to them as if they are two years old to get them to put the triangle shape into the triangle hole. I agree you should patiently explain why the previous two appeals are wrong, you can't rely on the third appeal panel having completed secondary education to come to the correct conclusion.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

get them to put the triangle shape into the triangle hole

I assume in this situation the square hole (which all the pieces fit in) is the reject option?

 

[gray1404]

Please can you show us the wording you intend to submit to the third appeal.

 

[FrancisMcg]

How does the below read?



To Whom It May Concern,

I am writing to submit a third appeal against the penalty fare notice (PFN), reference [REFERENCE], which was issued to me on 03/12/2025 aboard the 1U37, 13:46 WMR service from London Euston to Stafford. I believe my initial appeals were wrongfully rejected, and I am appealing again because the PFN was issued in violation of the applicable regulations.

The reason I was fined was due to selecting the incorrect railcard discount when purchasing my tickets. This was an honest mistake, and I provided evidence in my earlier appeals (attached again) showing that it was a genuine error.

The core reason my second appeal was rejected is due to a misunderstanding of the facts and regulations. As I mentioned previously, I was travelling from London Euston to Stafford and intended to get a second train from Stafford to Liverpool Lime Street, although this train was cancelled and so we were advised to get off at Crewe (the next station) and get a later train to Liverpool Lime Street from there.

It is important to note that the PFN was issued to me for Liverpool Lime Street, but my first train only travelled as far as Crewe, and therefore it was not lawful to issue a PFN for a destination that was never reached by the train. According to Regulation 5(5A) of The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, a penalty fare should only be issued to a station where the train is scheduled to stop, or at a stop at the time the PFN was issued. In this case, the train did not reach Liverpool Lime Street, and so it was improper to issue the PFN for that station.

Furthermore, the PFN was issued at 14:20, which was when the train had just passed Bletchley and was approaching Milton Keynes Central, the next scheduled stop. As per the regulations, the PFN should have been issued either at Milton Keynes Central, the next scheduled stop at the time, or only at a station that was on the train's scheduled route.

Under these circumstances, I should have been given the option to have the PFN issued only to Milton Keynes, and not Liverpool Lime Street. The PFN issued to Liverpool Lime Street was not compliant with the regulations, as the train never stopped there.

In light of this, I respectfully request that the penalty fare be upheld, as the PFN was issued incorrectly and in violation of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018. I trust that this appeal will now be resolved in accordance with the proper regulations.

Sign off

 

[srg]

In light of this, I respectfully request that the penalty fare be upheld,

I think you mean your appeal to the penalty fare be upheld

 

[Olivine]

As the previous posters have mentioned, literally dumb it down and bullet point it clearly. Got to play to the audience here.

 

[Straus]

I'm still interested in how you booked your ticket? I'm not aware of any booking mechanisms where it is easy to select the Railcard you did.

 

[z444z]

I'm still interested in how you booked your ticket? I'm not aware of any booking mechanisms where it is easy to select the Railcard you did.

I’d suggest that this kind of question is of no relevance to this case at this point and isn’t helpful to the OP

 

[SuspectUsual]

The reason I was fined was due to selecting the incorrect railcard discount when purchasing my tickets. This was an honest mistake, and I provided evidence in my earlier appeals (attached again) showing that it was a genuine error

Have a think about your wording. I know the point you’re making, but your evidence doesn’t prove it was a mistake. It just proves that you didn’t do it on the other occasions

It is important to note that the PFN was issued to me for Liverpool Lime Street, but my first train only travelled as far as Crewe, and therefore it was not lawful to issue a PFN for a destination that was never reached by the train. According to Regulation 5(5A) of The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, a penalty fare should only be issued to a station where the train is scheduled to stop, or at a stop at the time the PFN was issued. In this case, the train did not reach Liverpool Lime Street, and so it was improper to issue the PFN for that station

I wouldn’t say “did not reach Liverpool” as that could be taken to mean it was intended to but then something happened. As others have said you have to really dumb this down and leave nothing at all to interpretation. Something like “the train did not go to Liverpool” or “this was a train from London to xxxxx, not Liverpool”

 

[FrancisMcg]

What about the below - if people have further comments, please do provide an updated version. Thanks

To Whom It May Concern,

I am writing to submit a third appeal against the Penalty Fare Notice (PFN), reference [REFERENCE], which was issued to me on 03/12/2025 aboard the 1U37, 13:46 West Midlands Trains service.

---

Background​

• I was travelling on a West Midlands Railway service from London Euston to Stafford.
• I intended to travel onwards from Stafford to Liverpool Lime Street on another West Midlands Railway service.
• The onward connecting train to Liverpool Lime Street was cancelled, and passengers were advised that, in order to reach Liverpool Lime Street as quickly as possible, the connecting train should be taken from Crewe rather than Stafford.
• As a result, passengers were advised to remain on the train and exit at Crewe, to then join a connecting train at a slightly later time.
• The PFN was issued at approximately 14:20, shortly after the train had passed Bletchley and was approaching Milton Keynes Central, the next scheduled stop at that time.

---

Grounds of Appeal​

1. Genuine ticketing error

• I booked two tickets for this journey.
• One ticket was purchased with the correct 26–30 Railcard, while the other ticket was mistakenly purchased with an incorrect railcard discount.
• This inconsistency itself demonstrates that the error was genuine and accidental, rather than any attempt to avoid paying the correct fare.
• Earlier in the day, I had booked two tickets for earlier WMR services, which were subsequently cancelled by myself directly due to a family bereavement.
• When rebooking the tickets later in the day, I inadvertently selected the incorrect railcard for one of the two tickets, despite normally and correctly using a 26–30 Railcard.
• Evidence of these bookings and cancellations has been provided in my earlier appeals and is attached again for completeness.
• At all times, I acted in good faith and had no intention to travel without a valid ticket or to gain any financial advantage.

2. PFN issued to an incorrect destination

• The PFN was issued to Liverpool Lime Street.
• However, the train on which the PFN was issued was a service from London Euston to Crewe, not Liverpool Lime Street.
• The train did not travel to, nor was it scheduled to stop at, Liverpool Lime Street.

3. Non-compliance with the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018

• Regulation 5(5A) of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 states that a penalty fare may only be issued:
  • To a station at which the train is scheduled to stop, or
  • To the next scheduled stopping station at the time the PFN is issued.
• At the time the PFN was issued (14:20), the next scheduled stop was Milton Keynes Central.
• Under the regulations, the PFN should therefore have been issued only to Milton Keynes Central, not Liverpool Lime Street.
• Issuing a PFN to a destination that the train was neither scheduled to reach nor did reach is not compliant with the regulations.

---

In light of the above, I respectfully request that my appeal against the penalty fare be upheld, as the PFN was issued incorrectly and in breach of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018.

I trust that this appeal will now be resolved in accordance with the correct application of the regulations and the factual circumstances of the journey.

Yours faithfully,

 

[transportphoto]

There are probably other technical elements of appeal possible.

Has anyone a photo of the penalty fare warning notices at Euston, are they compliant with regulation?

Isn’t there a requirement for the penalty fare notice to specify that the time to pay the reduced amount does not include time on appeal?

These are just my first two thoughts.

When it comes to the draft, I’d personally try to remove the AI formatting and bring it all together.