Another Cross Country nightmare

[BREMENMURRAY]

Arriving for the 13:31 from Derby to Birmingham New St 14 December 2025 I found the four rear coaches locked and the front four coaches absolutely crammed.Rather than open the unlocked carriages passengers were advised to wait an hour for the next train [with no guarantee that would not be equally packed].

Interestingly at New St there was an apology for the late running of the train but no apology for the massive levels of overcrowding.When this usually happens with Cross Country it is because the train is far too short but that was not the case with this train.It really seems Cross Country have given up any attempt to run an adequate service and regardless of age,disability or infirmity you are lucky if you manage to squeeze onto the train-just about!

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Nothing new, unfortunately, this has been happening for at least the last six months. The excuse back then was that XC have decided they must have a Train Manager in each set and if they only have enough TMs to staff one unit the rear set is locked out of use.

Cross Country Voyagers - rear set locked out of use?

I’ve been on a number of Cross Country services which have been formed of a double Voyager, however, more recently, there has been an increasingly common occurrence of where the rear set has been locked out of use, due to lack of train crew. For Southbound services, it’s usually after...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Tetragon213]

Arriving for the 13:31 from Derby to Birmingham New St 14 December 2025 I found the four rear coaches locked and the front four coaches absolutely crammed.Rather than open the unlocked carriages passengers were advised to wait an hour for the next train [with no guarantee that would not be equally packed].

Interestingly at New St there was an apology for the late running of the train but no apology for the massive levels of overcrowding.When this usually happens with Cross Country it is because the train is far too short but that was not the case with this train.It really seems Cross Country have given up any attempt to run an adequate service and regardless of age,disability or infirmity you are lucky if you manage to squeeze onto the train-just about!

Had this happen a few weeks back on a Sheffield to Birmingham. That time, I chose to travel on the next service and hope for the best (no such luck there), as I physically couldn't board the first one. Something along the same lines then practically repeated itself last Friday, when I saw, to my horror, that 4 coaches were missing from 1V54. I was stood all the way from Sheffield to Birmingham.

XC are a national disgrace.

 

[Mojo]

Nothing new, unfortunately. This has been happening for at least the last six months.

Cross Country Voyagers - rear set locked out of use?

I’ve been on a number of Cross Country services which have been formed of a double Voyager, however, more recently, there has been an increasingly common occurrence of where the rear set has been locked out of use, due to lack of train crew. For Southbound services, it’s usually after...

www.railforums.co.uk

l've just had a read of that thread, to summarise for anyone else, XC changed their policy earlier this year whereby a Retail Service Manager (catering trolley staff) can no longer be used to allow the front set of a double Voyager to be open for customer use. So unless there are two TMs allocated for a train, one set will remain out of use.

 

[azOOOOOma]

Can anyone explain what a Retail Manager does at XC? My understanding was that they are the equivalent of a CEL at LNER meaning they can perform some safety related duties in the front set with a TM being required for the rear set. Is that not the case and do XC need two TMs to operate two trains joined together. Doesn’t seem very efficient.

 

[Trainman40083]

I've got to say that if I was just travelling just from Derby to Birmingham, I'd always opt for one of the Class 170 services.

 

[Snow1964]

l've just had a read of that thread, to summarise for anyone else, XC changed their policy earlier this year whereby a Retail Service Manager (catering trolley staff) can no longer be used to allow the front set of a double Voyager to be open for customer use. So unless there are two TMs allocated for a train, one set will remain out of use.

Of course in a logical world, if XC has this policy and they allocate 2 units, then they should allocate two TMs

It seems in this case managed 2 units but one TM was missing or defective (I know some don't like the terminology for staff, but trying to be consistent with what they use for units here because should be both together).

I always await the innocent question why the TM from the back goes missing, and never the TM from front unit. Presumably the policy allows staff to swap units they were allocated to (which is a real bum for passengers when it's a 4car leading a 5car)

 

[BanburyBlue]

Can anyone explain what a Retail Manager does at XC? My understanding was that they are the equivalent of a CEL at LNER meaning they can perform some safety related duties in the front set with a TM being required for the rear set. Is that not the case and do XC need two TMs to operate two trains joined together. Doesn’t seem very efficient.

In the back of my mind, I'm sure I've seen comments in other posts that said XC weren't prepared to pay the Retail Managers the extra allowance to cover the TM role. But totally agree.

 

[ThatBloke]

In the back of my mind, I'm sure I've seen comments in other posts that said XC weren't prepared to pay the Retail Managers the extra allowance to cover the TM role. But totally agree.

Retail Managers stepping up to be TM's - can't see 'the Brothers' in the Union being happy about that happening.

 

[Bevan Price]

l've just had a read of that thread, to summarise for anyone else, XC changed their policy earlier this year whereby a Retail Service Manager (catering trolley staff) can no longer be used to allow the front set of a double Voyager to be open for customer use. So unless there are two TMs allocated for a train, one set will remain out of use.

Whichever manager introduced that policy ought to be shown the exit door from railway employment before he/she totally destroys the reputation of rail travel. It looks totally ridiculous to passenger unable to board a train with 4 or 5 totally empty coaches. Does any other adopt this totally stupid policy when they couple 2 or more multiple units lacking corridor connections.

(And yes - I have encountered this situation myself, fortunately only for a short trip; crammed 220 at front, empty 221 at rear.)

 

[Grecian 1998]

I always await the innocent question why the TM from the back goes missing, and never the TM from front unit. Presumably the policy allows staff to swap units they were allocated to (which is a real bum for passengers when it's a 4car leading a 5car)

This did actually happen to me earlier this month. 1827 from Exeter St Davids to Leeds on Saturday 6 December, formed of 2 X 220s. Front 4 coaches G - L locked out, rear 4 coaches A - F in use. Never seen it before, but as I was waiting at the northern end of platform 5 for the G - L portion which is always much quieter, I had to race back down the platform. As the 1727 had been cancelled, I decided to pay for a first class upgrade along with a few other people, simply to avoid being wedged for an hour.

Not sure why they did that as I've never seen it otherwise. I'm not sure if it would have been possible if it had been a 220 leading a 221 - the rear coach of the 221 would have to be locked out of use until Exeter, potentially taking all First Class out of use.

Whichever manager introduced that policy ought to be shown the exit door from railway employment before he/she totally destroys the reputation of rail travel. It looks totally ridiculous to passenger unable to board a train with 4 or 5 totally empty coaches. Does any other adopt this totally stupid policy when they couple 2 or more multiple units lacking corridor connections.

It allows all the drawbacks of doubled up units - increased track access charges, fuel consumption and fewer usable platforms - for none of the advantages. Indeed it's far more irritating when you can only use 4 out of 8 coaches than if there were only 4 there in the first place.

 

[BREMENMURRAY]

These consistently overcrowded Cross Country trains present a potential health and safety hazard to any passenger unable to stand for long periods or with other health difficulty

 

[Tetragon213]

These consistently overcrowded Cross Country trains present a potential health and safety hazard to any passenger unable to stand for long periods or with other health difficulty

They aren't a "potential" health and safety hazard, they are a serious and extant health and safety hazard to everyone involved, not just those with physical difficulties.

 

[ThatBloke]

They aren't a "potential" health and safety hazard, they are a serious and extant health and safety hazard to everyone involved, not just those with physical difficulties.

At some point in the future there will be an on-train incident. Excluding violence and similar.Perhaps as simple as a smoke/fumes situation in a saloon.
That requires rapid evacuation of a vehicle between stations.
But such will the density of crush loaded passengers that there is no where to escape to, with foreseeable consequence from an ensuing panic or inability to escape the original incident.
Fortunately, collisions and full emergency braking events are very rare, again the foreseeable consequence to large numbers of standing passengers is there.

 

[bramling]

Whichever manager introduced that policy ought to be shown the exit door from railway employment before he/she totally destroys the reputation of rail travel. It looks totally ridiculous to passenger unable to board a train with 4 or 5 totally empty coaches. Does any other adopt this totally stupid policy when they couple 2 or more multiple units lacking corridor connections.

(And yes - I have encountered this situation myself, fortunately only for a short trip; crammed 220 at front, empty 221 at rear.)

Can someone what explain what prevents XC running a double formation with the driver in the front half and the train manager in the rear half, both as qualified safety-critical staff?

For those of us who grew up with 12-car 365s running DOO it all seems somewhat unnecessary. I realise having Intercity units with no safety-critical staff isn’t ideal, but it’s preferable to overcrowding and dragging units around empty.

 

[Bevan Price]

Can someone what explain what prevents XC running a double formation with the driver in the front half and the train manager in the rear half, both as qualified safety-critical staff?

For those of us who grew up with 12-car 365s running DOO it all seems somewhat unnecessary. I realise having Intercity units with no safety-critical staff isn’t ideal, but it’s preferable to overcrowding and dragging units around empty.

Stupidity ???
Of cousre the real problem can be ascribed to DfT (or predecessors) who thoucht that 4 coach Class 220s would be adequate for anything. By increasing XC frequencies, you could predict that more passengers would be attracted. But a pair of 220s contain fewer standard class seats than the single Loco+7 formations they replaced. What dimwits..........

 

[ThatBloke]

who thought that 4 coach Class 220s would be adequate for anything.

I believe Richard Branson and his franchise partners got exactly what they ordered, for what they perceived was the market at the turn of the century.

 

[Russel]

Retail Managers stepping up to be TM's - can't see 'the Brothers' in the Union being happy about that happening.

And there we have it, the actual reason.

 

[voyagerdude220]

CrossCountry JourneyCheck - Train times and live real time delay/cancellation/disruption information.

CrossCountry JourneyCheck provides real time, up-to-date train times and train disruption information keeping you informed about any delays or cancellations on the network and helping you know what to do when your journey is affected. Train Cancellations, Delays, Alterations and Engineering...

www.journeycheck.com

The Cross Country Journey Check page currently lists over 30 amendments to their services tomorrow (Friday 19th December), most of which are down to a shortage of Train Drivers.

For Example southbound between Birmingham New Street and Bristol Temple Meads- both 09:42 and 10:12 departures cancelled (amongst others).
Northbound- 16:33, 17:00 and 18:33 amongst others.

 

[bramling]

And there we have it, the actual reason.

What is stopping XC management bringing in a policy which states that there will be a safety-critical member of staff on each unit - the driver on the front and the train manager on the rear?

If the union argument would be that it’s about safety then this satisfies that. Obviously it would be problematic from a customer service and revenue protection point of view, but neither of those are issues for the union.

Is there anything specific about the Voyager design which makes this unfeasible?

 

[JonathanH]

What is stopping XC management bringing in a policy which states that there will be a safety-critical member of staff on each unit - the driver on the front and the train manager on the rear?

It would be the thin end of a wedge that reduces the number of staff needed.

 

[bramling]

It would be the thin end of a wedge that reduces the number of staff needed.

One can ask the question as to whether that number of staff are “needed”, given that other operators run non-gangways multiple units without staff in them.

I would agree it isn’t ideal on XC, but it’s hard to make a case to say it’s unsafe. Dragging empty units around whilst people stand is also not ideal, and I think I know what most passengers would choose given a choice.

 

[ThatBloke]

The Cross Country Journey Check page currently lists over 30 amendments to their services tomorrow (Friday 19th December), most of which are down to a shortage of Train Drivers.

I see as of 00:18 on Friday 19 Dec, AXC are at 84. cancellations or short diagrams for Friday's 'service' - the last Friday before Xmas.

 

[JonathanH]

What I find a little odd with this is how the precedent for needing a guard in both units was established in the first place.

Virgin CrossCountry ran double Voyagers from the earliest days of their initial introduction, as pairs of units replaced the old trains in some instances through the start of 2002 before Operation Princess, and hadn't used trains without through connections before. There would have been no direct precedent of two guards working the service before a loco-hauled or HST set was replaced by a double Voyager.

Was it a stipulation of the Unions at that time which required guards in both parts of the train or a passenger experience point? Which other operators had such a requirement in place?

 

[Russel]

What is stopping XC management bringing in a policy which states that there will be a safety-critical member of staff on each unit - the driver on the front and the train manager on the rear?

If the union argument would be that it’s about safety then this satisfies that. Obviously it would be problematic from a customer service and revenue protection point of view, but neither of those are issues for the union.

Is there anything specific about the Voyager design which makes this unfeasible?

Regarding safety, given the same TOC runs double 170s with only one conductor and in the wider Arriva group, Chiltern and LO both run non gangway units with no second member of staff, I really don't buy it.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

A couple of queries, firstly do XC announce on their social media if one unit is out of use on their double Voyagers? This would at least give potential passengers some idea of where on the platform to wait to give themselves a fighting chance of a seat space to stand on the train.

Secondly what happens with splits? For example 1V64 ex-Edinburgh splits at Bristol Parkway, with one unit going to Plymouth and the other to Cardiff. If one is out of use how do they decide which unit goes to its destination and which gets cancelled - do they toss a coin?

 

[D6130]

A couple of queries, firstly do XC announce on their social media if one unit is out of use on their double Voyagers? This would at least give potential passengers some idea of where on the platform to wait to give themselves a fighting chance of a seat space to stand on the train.

Secondly what happens with splits? For example 1V64 ex-Edinburgh splits at Bristol Parkway, with one unit going to Plymouth and the other to Cardiff. If one is out of use how do they decide which unit goes to its destination and which gets cancelled - do they toss a coin?

Presumably there will be a driver and TM waiting at Parkway to take the Cardiff portion, therefore, once uncoupled, they can open up that unit....with Newport and Cardiff passengers transferring along the platform from the leading unit.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Secondly what happens with splits? For example 1V64 ex-Edinburgh splits at Bristol Parkway, with one unit going to Plymouth and the other to Cardiff. If one is out of use how do they decide which unit goes to its destination and which gets cancelled - do they toss a coin?

Specifically with 1V64 it's booked to split at Gloucester, so it makes sense that the front set upon arrival at Gloucester continues forwards towards Cardiff and the rear set reverses direction of travel to go towards Plymouth.

If a set was out of use they'd probably just open it back up once it had train crew available to work on it and make sure announcements were made onboard and on the platform advising passengers which coach letters are going to their respective destinations.

 

[Tetragon213]

Presumably there will be a driver and TM waiting at Parkway to take the Cardiff portion, therefore, once uncoupled, they can open up that unit....with Newport and Cardiff passengers transferring along the platform from the leading unit.

Back in November when I saw this happen, no they did not. In fact, at Sheffield, there was never any mention that 5 coaches were locked out.

When this happened last week with 4 coaches missing, there was never any mention until the train pulled in and 4 coaches weren't there.

XC and their inability to communicate or resolve anything are a national disgrace.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Back in November when I saw this happen, no they did not. In fact, at Sheffield, there was never any mention that 5 coaches were locked out.

When this happened last week with 4 coaches missing, there was never any mention until the train pulled in and 4 coaches weren't there.

XC and their inability to communicate or resolve anything are a national disgrace.

It quite often states on the XC journey check page on service alterations when part of a double Voyager has been locked out of use, but I've known times when this hasn't been told to passengers at the Station beforehand.