E-Tickets availability?

[Sonic1234]

Some of the TOCs forgot to enable E-Ticketability for their sale tickets....

GTR's sale tickets were paper only - what a surprise!

 

[James H]

I'm using Greater Anglia Rail Sale tickets today and they were issued on paper

 

[Joe Paxton]

Some of the TOCs forgot to enable E-Ticketability for their sale tickets....

A masterclass in promotional retailing!

 

[CyrusWuff]

A masterclass in promotional retailing!

The issue being that even if TOCs were doing exactly the same offer as the 2024 GBRS, they had to enable eTickets again due to the "unique" way the Retail Control Service works.

 

[Joe Paxton]

The issue being that even if TOCs were doing exactly the same offer as the 2024 GBRS, they had to enable eTickets again due to the "unique" way the Retail Control Service works.

Yep, when I read the 2019 submission of @Paul Kelly (of BR Fares) to the Williams Rail Review, the section relating to "Use of RCS for controlling availability of Ticket Fulfilment Methods" (page 3 in the short document) really stuck with me - the inefficiency of the design of said system just comes across as absurd!

I'm minded to think the only reason e-tickets really took off is that the advantages are so obviously evident to the passenger railway industry (TOCs, RDG, DfT, Uncle Tom Cobley and all) that even they, in all their deeply fragmented 'glory', had to manage ways to bodge things together and make the concept actually work (well... most of the time at least!).

 

[Sleepy]

DfT will fuming about the figures for e-tickets being reduced due to this

 

[Adam Williams]

The issue being that even if TOCs were doing exactly the same offer as the 2024 GBRS, they had to enable eTickets again due to the "unique" way the Retail Control Service works.

This wasn't something I was aware of! Are the flow rules all scoped to a fares period or something?

 

[CyrusWuff]

This wasn't something I was aware of! Are the flow rules all scoped to a fares period or something?

Just checked with my TOC's Pricing Manager. Anything that means the fares aren't being distributed causes the fulfilment settings to drop out, whether that's setting the price to £999,999.99 or just deleting it altogether.

Which would explain why GWR (for example) leave their Rail Sale fares live all year and rely solely on RARS to control availability.

 

[Adam Williams]

Just checked with my TOC's Pricing Manager. Anything that means the fares aren't being distributed causes the fulfilment settings to drop out, whether that's setting the price to £999,999.99 or just deleting it altogether.

That's interesting to know, thanks. Almost seems like it's designed to inflict maximum pain on everyone involved. Setting the price to all nines is quite legitimate for wanting to avoid disclosure of a (past) price, of course - and means the TIS doesn't have to waste time and compute asking RARS about an Advance fare that won't be offered outside of a sale period. That said, I can see why GWR have gone with that approach..

 

[wellhouse]

Scotland Live reports that ScotRail have withdrawn eTickets between Bellgrove and Glasgow Queen Street on the assumption that insisting on paper tickets will reduce short-faring

"Rail users have been complaining after the app began telling people they had to print their single and return tickets at Bellgrove Station before boarding the train, with electronic tickets now unavailable.......Scotrail confirmed to Glasgow Live that the move has been made to some journeys where there have been high levels of abuse and fraudulent use. This includes people using Bellgrove as their origin despite boarding earlier.."

ScotRail passenger slams 'unfair' change at Glasgow station as digital tickets scrapped

Rail users have been complaining after the app began telling people they had to print their single and return tickets at Bellgrove Station before boarding the train, with electronic tickets now unavailable.

www.glasgowlive.co.uk

 

[A S Leib]

Scotland Live reports that ScotRail have withdrawn eTickets between Bellgrove and Glasgow Queen Street on the assumption that insisting on paper tickets will reduce short-faring

"Rail users have been complaining after the app began telling people they had to print their single and return tickets at Bellgrove Station before boarding the train, with electronic tickets now unavailable.......Scotrail confirmed to Glasgow Live that the move has been made to some journeys where there have been high levels of abuse and fraudulent use. This includes people using Bellgrove as their origin despite boarding earlier.."

ScotRail passenger slams 'unfair' change at Glasgow station as digital tickets scrapped

Rail users have been complaining after the app began telling people they had to print their single and return tickets at Bellgrove Station before boarding the train, with electronic tickets now unavailable.

www.glasgowlive.co.uk

I went to Ayr a few weeks ago and noticed a railcard-discounted paper ticket from Glasgow Central to Cardonald that somebody had left, so I'm not convinced that will solve it.

(I'm also not saying that people, including those using railcards, don't make legitimate journeys between Cardonald and Glasgow Central.)

 

[Hadders]

Frankly, this is appalling behaviour by Scotrail.

I wonder how many people will get caught out when they’ve been used to e-ticket fulfilment suddenly, without warning, reverts to ToD.

I don’t condone ticket evasion but there are better ways of dealing with it than this.

 

[kkong]

This may be related to the very large number of Celtic FC fans who board and alight at Bellgrove (the other matchday stations being Bridgeton, Dalmarnock, and to a lesser extent, Duke Street).

There is almost no chance of on-board ticket checks being carried out when travelling around these stations before or after matches at Celtic Park due to the volume of passengers.

 

[TUC]

This may be related to the very large number of Celtic FC fans who board and alight at Bellgrove (the other matchday stations being Bridgeton, Dalmarnock, and to a lesser extent, Duke Street).

There is almost no chance of ticket checking taking place in stations around these stations before or after matches at Celtic Park due to the volume of passengers.

But there wouldn't be with paper tickets eithet.

 

[kkong]

But there wouldn't be with paper tickets eithet.

True, but the inconvenience of having to queue up at the ticket sales desk inside the barriers at Queen Street might be a disincentive to some passengers.

That is more hassle than short-faring on the app.

 

[Watershed]

Frankly, this is appalling behaviour by Scotrail.

I wonder how many people will get caught out when they’ve been used to e-ticket fulfilment suddenly, without warning, reverts to ToD.

I don’t condone ticket evasion but there are better ways of dealing with it than this.

Agreed. Sadly their revenue management team seem to have a very backwards attitude to ticketing, with eTickets still not being enabled for the vast majority of flows and even mTickets now being disabled here. Similarly Super Off-Peak Day tickets being disabled for any kind of online purchase.

 

[yorkie]

Reopened for @Edvid to post an update

 

[Edvid]

Thanks yorkie

With the T&R Updates back on after a year and change, here's an extract from issue 155 (pages 12/13) concerning TfL's barcode trial.

Back in June 2024 we started an initial three-month trial of handheld barcode scanning equipment at 10 of our stations that are directly served by National Rail services. Various delays meant that scanning was introduced at stations gradually meaning that the trial needed to be extended for a further period of time.

The trial proved to be extremely rewarding with more than 100,000 scans being made by the end of September. The most tickets by far were presented at the Farringdon gateline (84%), with four other stations experiencing significant volumes at peak periods. These included Moorgate, Old Street and Finsbury Park who all joined the trial late.

How rewarding? Well on the first morning of scanning tickets at Old Street, one customer was found to be travelling on a ticket that had been bought and used in January.



The large number of scans undertaken at stations have clearly proved the value of the equipment. The data collected has and continues to be extremely useful in developing the ability of the equipment and helped identify the variety of tickets being used by customers.

Using the equipment is also voluntary for station staff* and is there as a means to check barcoded tickets where time allows and staff are keen to do so.

This has resulted in the Rail Delivery Group agreeing to fund the continued use of the equipment at the six locations listed below, including Kentish Town, which we were initially unable to include in the trial due to major building works that affected the ticket hall.



The scheme has also been extended to Revenue Control inspections at these stations, initially for 6 months as the volumes of barcode tickets issued by National Rail and online agencies continues to increase.

At the time of writing, discussions have been taking place with Revenue Control management, their TU representatives and TfL Prosecutions about the scope of the trial and what legal enforcement can be applied to any fare evaders found to be deliberately using incorrect or manipulated tickets to make journeys to/from an LU station.

The briefing packs have been updated and training is shortly to begin with the teams that will be using the equipment on various duties and exercises. As with the station trial, we will look to share the results of their work in a future edition of the T&R Update.

In summary, the barcode ticketing devices remain very much an interim solution and the longer-term objective is of course to get barcode scanning equipment incorporated into our gates at the stations where NR services are within our gatelines.

The data from this project should strengthen the case for this ultimate solution and possibly push this a little higher up the priority list.

However, the main obstacle is the need to fully integrate the barcode reader into our gate software, combined with the fact that the current Revenue Collection Contract (RCC) is currently being retendered with a potential change freeze during the transition between the current and new contract beginning.

TfL are, or will be involved in the so-called 'ultimate' solution (Barcode 2.0) which I thought would get a mention. In any case they intend to revisit the barcode topic in the next T&R Update.

[* Explains why I've never seen the devices in use at Farringdon]

 

[Edvid]

Now that Vix gates with integrated barcode readers have been installed at key Merseyrail stations, can valid barcode tickets - be they eTickets defined by other fare setters, or Day Savers bought on Merseyrail's site and issued as PDFs - open said gates?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Nobody has mentioned anything.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

E-ticket availability is continuing to improve, with Southeastern and ScotRail both being in the process of rolling them out more widely as station barriers and staff ticket checking facilities are upgraded. Unfortunately I imagine Merseyrail, TfL and TfW will remain hold-outs for a long time to come, as they aren't under DfT control and like to do their own thing.

I buy e-tickets from TfW regularly.

 

[Watershed]

I buy e-tickets from TfW regularly.

I wrote the post you quoted in 2023; TfW have made eTickets available much more widely on their flows since then.

 

[SephenWorceste]

When I used an e ticket years back it had to time stamp activated in an app and involved some sort of movement when displayed. All this made it somewhat difficult to copy and reuse. This week I went for an e ticket and it was a static QR code and I’d not need to be activated in an app.

The scope for fraud seems enormous multiple people using the same tickets, multiple times across multiple days.

I know the same applies to paper tickets but the ticket stock is presumably controlled, difficult to reproduce and the tickets can be punched or marked as they are used.

The hand held scanner cannot check if the ticket has been used before at the time it has been inspected. Reconciliation in the back office later could potentially identify suspected fraud. Difficult to think there will be resources for many in-depth investigations and tracing the people involved.

I hope e tickets are not going to reduced ticket revenue.

 

[Adam Williams]

When I used an e ticket years back it had to time stamp activated in an app and involved some sort of movement when displayed.

This is an mTicket, not an eTicket.

The scope for fraud seems enormous multiple people using the same tickets, multiple times across multiple days.

This is what the eTVD (ticket validation database) prevents by keeping track of all scans.

The hand held scanner cannot check if the ticket has been used before at the time it has been inspected.

Yes it can.

I hope e tickets are not going to reduced ticket revenue

They increase revenue because they improve the passenger experience and provide even more ways of protecting revenue than we had before.

the ticket stock is presumably controlled

I know people who have purchased "controlled" ticket stock from eBay (with no specimen markings) - the railway is lucky that it was purchased by someone with absolutely no intention of using it fraudulently. Relying on stock not falling into criminals's hands is a dumb security mechanism to rely upon.

 

[SephenWorceste]

This is an mTicket, not an eTicket.


This is what the eTVD (ticket validation database) prevents by keeping track of all scans.


Yes it can.


They increase revenue because they improve the passenger experience and provide even more ways of protecting revenue than we had before.


I know people who have purchased "controlled" ticket stock from eBay (with no specimen markings) - the railway is lucky that it was purchased by someone with absolutely no intention of using it fraudulently. Relying on stock not falling into criminals's hands is a dumb security mechanism to rely upon.

Thank you for you information. I did not know there was a difference between an e ticket and an m ticket. My failing definitely.

Interesting regarding hand held scanners checking the ticket has not been used imediately. My ticket was scanned, beeped and the guard moved on in a second or so I guess. The area we were in has poor mobile reception. All this lead me to think the scan was not online and not immediately checked.

Thank you for leading me to google eTVD with lead me to https://www.theticketkeeper.com/services/validation. All very interesting.

Gosh. Ticket stock on eBay.

Best wishes, Stephen.

 

[Alex365Dash]

Interesting regarding hand held scanners checking the ticket has not been used imediately. My ticket was scanned, beeped and the guard moved on in a second or so I guess. The area we were in has poor mobile reception. All this lead me to think the scan was not online and not immediately checked.

The scanning software checks periodically (for me on TTK, every 5-10 minutes) for scan data where a ticket may have been used.

Note that it doesn’t need to rely on the internet if it’s the same device scanning the same ticket both times - it’s not that uncommon to have two customers with the same eTicket on each of their phones and I get shown the same one the second time!

 

[takno]

The scanning software checks periodically (for me on TTK, every 5-10 minutes) for scan data where a ticket may have been used.

Note that it doesn’t need to rely on the internet if it’s the same device scanning the same ticket both times - it’s not that uncommon to have two customers with the same eTicket on each of their phones and I get shown the same one the second time!

I have been through that - the experience of getting an email with 5 tickets on it, forwarding it to everybody in the party and then painstakingly telling each of them which one to download into their wallet, safe in the knowledge that at least somebody is going to get the wrong one.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I have been through that - the experience of getting an email with 5 tickets on it, forwarding it to everybody in the party and then painstakingly telling each of them which one to download into their wallet, safe in the knowledge that at least somebody is going to get the wrong one.

Then book with LNER and you can send one ticket to each person.

 

[MrJeeves]

Or use the TrainSplit app where you can share Apple/Google Wallet or PDF files/links per-passenger.

 

[takno]

Then book with LNER and you can send one ticket to each person.

I would probably have booked with LNER, but I think there was a specific offer or something. It was a case of getting the tickets in a hurry on the way to the station rather than making carefully considered choices.