Sheffield To Brighton Direct

[gerryuk]

Now that bi modes are being rolled out on the MML would it not be a good idea to get the Sheffield to St Pancras service to go through to Brighton via the Thameslink?
My idea would be the fast trains from Sheffield going to Brighton and the stopping service from Sheffield to terminate at Gatwick. Thameslink could terminate some of their trains due to lost paths at St Pancras but would still have direct trains to the South. After St Pancras the trains would call at Farringdon, Blackfriars, London Bridge, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport and the fast continuing to Brighton.

 

[renegademaster]

Thameslink is already unreliable enough, making it even more so to avoid having to go up some escalators is silly.


What would be beneficial would be EMR intercity services stop at Luton Airport Parkway to use it like you can use Stevenage as a cross platform interchange to ECML destinations, but I don't know if that would actually work pathing wise

 

[zwk500]

No, it would be a terrible idea. The 810s don't have third rail capability, the door layout (for dwell times), or the capacity to replace services in the core.

 

[gerryuk]

No, it would be a terrible idea. The 810s don't have third rail capability, the door layout (for dwell times), or the capacity to replace services in the core.

Why would third rail be an issue? They are bi modes, or am i missing something here?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Why would third rail be an issue? They are bi modes, or am i missing something here?

They could indeed run to Brighton on diesel, but they'd be taking the place of an electric service and thus increasing the emissions (at the point of use) of the railway overall. The main problem (besides those already mentioned) is that the overhead wires end (IIRC) between Farringdon & City Thameslink. The Class 700s switch to third rail at this point but the 810s would have to run on diesel. As the line is still in tunnel at this point through to Blackfriars, you'd end up filling the Thameslink Core with exhaust fumes.

 

[yoyothehobo]

Would they actually even fit through the tunnels without fouling the structure gauge?

 

[Magdalia]

Now that bi modes are being rolled out on the MML would it not be a good idea to get the Sheffield to St Pancras service to go through to Brighton via the Thameslink?

No this would be a very bad idea.

Thameslink is already unreliable enough

Thameslink already has too many long distance routes that give it too many sources of disruption. Thameslink passengers to/from Brighton don't need to be delayed by signal failures at Derby, for example. Thameslink needs fewer routes going through the core, not more.

Thameslink also exports disruption to other parts of the network, so St Pancras-Sheffield would get a much worse service, for example if there is a signal failure at East Croydon.

After St Pancras the trains would call at Farringdon, Blackfriars, London Bridge, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport and the fast continuing to Brighton.

The Thameslink core is designed for trains to run at 150 second intervals. Class 700s are designed to deliver the short dwell times and short reoccupation times needed to have trains every 150 seconds. Class 810s would not be able to deliver that: the dwell times would be too long because of the door layout, the reoccupation times would be too slow on diesel power, especially up the steep gradient from City Thameslink to Blackfriars.

 

[Farigiraf]

Grand Central is proposing to run this service, albeit via Birmingham, Reading and the North Downs line instead.

MML intercity services, which happen to be some of the least reliable intercity services in the country, running through the Thameslink core would create absolute chaos. Wouldn't think there is much MML to Brighton/Gatwick traffic anyway - Manchester and Luton airports are easier to reach, and there are closer seaside towns than Brighton from Sheffield, Leicester and Derby.



These two threads lining up perfectly is hilarious.

 

[jfollows]

Grand Central makes sense, it needs to be an occasional service for people too scared to change, or offering cheap fares.
But XC used to offer services from Brighton to other places, but they don’t run any more, so presumably little demand?
I’d change at Saint Pancras every time. Frequent service to frequent service, right to use later train and Delay Repay in case of delay.

 

[Topological]

Brighton just creates a lot of complications relative to some reasonably simple changes.

For Sheffield and the Midland Mainline, for the East Coast Mainline and Cambridge, there are Thameslink connections and/or a relatively easy transfer at Kings Cross-St Pancaras.
For the West Coast Mainline Euston to St Pancras is a bit of a walk, or there is the Victoria Line to Victoria.
For the Great Western, or Anglia, Elizabeth Line and then Thameslink works well (this is what I do if I need to)

Grand Central has potential, but I would prefer to see focus on making CrossCountry reliable to Reading and then leave Brighton Mainline paths for London trains.

 

[stevieinselby]

Now that bi modes are being rolled out on the MML would it not be a good idea to get the Sheffield to St Pancras service to go through to Brighton via the Thameslink?
My idea would be the fast trains from Sheffield going to Brighton and the stopping service from Sheffield to terminate at Gatwick. Thameslink could terminate some of their trains due to lost paths at St Pancras but would still have direct trains to the South. After St Pancras the trains would call at Farringdon, Blackfriars, London Bridge, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport and the fast continuing to Brighton.

No.

The 810s don't have third rail capability, so would be running on diesel between Farringdon and Brighton, and in particular through the Thameslink Core tunnels which were only designed for electric operation and so don't have the ventilation you would need to run diesel trains without suffocating all the passengers and staff at intermediate stations, and even without that problem would be an increase in diesel usage and so an environmental negative.

The 810s have a layout that is designed for intercity services, not for frequently stopping services through an urban core that sees a high churn at every station. The dwell times would be horrendous and each EMR service would eat up the paths of several TL trains.

We have enough reliability and punctuality problems without adding more – and these services would be guaranteed to increase delays across huge areas of the network.

It's completely unnecessary. The small number of people who want to travel from Sheffield/Derby/Leicester to Croydon/Gatwick/Brighton can do so by making one easy change at St Pancras. We can't have an everywhere-to-everywhere-direct railway, people are going to have to change trains on less common journeys.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

British Rail thought about doing this but the markets that could have made it viable (holiday traffic, cross-channel ferries) no longer exist.

 

[NCT]

Oh not another one …

 

[FGWHST43009]

Might as well just use Grand Central's proposed service if it doesn't get rejected. Will be direct albeit slower than going through London.

Thameslink is already unreliable enough, making it even more so to avoid having to go up some escalators is silly.


What would be beneficial would be EMR intercity services stop at Luton Airport Parkway to use it like you can use Stevenage as a cross platform interchange to ECML destinations, but I don't know if that would actually work pathing wise

That's a good idea, will eliminate the need to navigate the complex maze of Kings Cross St Pancras

 

[mike57]

Thameslink through the core is at most a regional service, and probably should be further simplified and run as a 'metro' service. London Sheffield is Inter City. Turning inter city services into regional or stopping services is a bad idea. Current Inter City services all ready have too many stops in a lot of cases. Rolling stock requirements are different, both in terms of arrangements, end doors/decent first class v doors at fhirds and reduced first class and also would need to be dual voltage third rail and 25kv as well as diesel. Delays would propogate. Current journey is currently one change, not even needing a London transfer. I could go on...

 

[swt_passenger]

On any typical current service leaving Sheffield, just how many are going further than central London, or somewhere reachable by LU or the various local suburban services. A through service down the Brighton line will only be of use to a relatively small minority of the original passengers, and of little or no use to anyone whose onward journey is to somewhere in the wider GWR, SWR, SE, Anglia, C2C service areas, etc etc.

 

[FGWHST43009]

Nuclear option would be to just build a new line from London to Brighton and link it up with a hypothetical future UK high speed railway network that connects Sheffield. Unlikely to happen of course but the option is always there.

 

[Bald Rick]

The main problem (besides those already mentioned) is that the overhead wires end (IIRC) between Farringdon & City Thameslink. The Class 700s switch to third rail at this point but the 810s would have to run on diesel. As the line is still in tunnel at this point through to Blackfriars, you'd end up filling the Thameslink Core with exhaust fumes.

Diesel trains are not permitted in the core, excpt for engineering works (when there are no passengers, and the fire alarms are all turned off)

Would they actually even fit through the tunnels without fouling the structure gauge?

No, they wouldn’t. They would hit any train coming the other way at the south end of St Pancras, and that would be the first of many places where they would be ‘reshaped’

 

[Uncle Buck]

Oh not another one …

Exactly.

Too many commenters here looking for an “everywhere-to-everywhere” service when in modern times good connections are key.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

It's completely unnecessary. The small number of people who want to travel from Sheffield/Derby/Leicester to Croydon/Gatwick/Brighton can do so by making one easy change at St Pancras. We can't have an everywhere-to-everywhere-direct railway, people are going to have to change trains on less common journeys.

We are, of course, in the Speculative Discussion forum, so we shouldn't be surprised that not every idea is a runner, but the above is the key question for any proposal. It can even be simplified down to one three letter word:

Why?

Unless an original poster can justify why their proposal is a good idea, it's liable to be shot down at an early point.

 

[stevieinselby]

We are, of course, in the Speculative Discussion forum, so we shouldn't be surprised that not every idea is a runner, but the above is the key question for any proposal.

Quite. For me, the premise of Speculative Discussion is about what could be, and so unless someone prefaces their post to the effect that it is intended to be in fantasy world, I'll treat it as a genuine suggestion.

 

[AzureOtsu]

Send them up the west coast mainline through kensington olympia, we dont need any more trains on the thameslink core

 

[The Planner]

Send them up the west coast mainline through kensington olympia, we dont need any more trains on the thameslink core

Thats going to be a tad difficult if its the EMR services being discussed.

 

[AzureOtsu]

Thats going to be a tad difficult if its the EMR services being discussed.

Route them up through the Marston vale after ewr increases capacity

 

[The Planner]

Route them up through the Marston vale after ewr increases capacity

WCML is full.

 

[Farnborough]

Grand Central is proposing to run this service, albeit via Birmingham, Reading and the North Downs line instead.

I guess it won't be stopping at Farnborough North ?

I'd rather see an increase on our one-train-per-hour "service" between Reading and Guildford/Gatwick (plus watching the other, also hourly, fast service whizz past).

Actually, I'd much rather see the existing service's reliability improve.

 

[zwk500]

Route them up through the Marston vale after ewr increases capacity

So you want them to cross slow to fast on the flat at Bletchley and then back at North Wembley? Thats going to do wonders for capacity and timekeeping.

 

[AzureOtsu]

WCML is full.

Not after hs2.

So you want them to cross slow to fast on the flat at Bletchley and then back at North Wembley? Thats going to do wonders for capacity and timekeeping.

Nah let's build a flyover whilst we're at it.

however unrealistic this option is it's still more plausible than creating a bespoke tri mode intercity train through the thameslink core. 769s would be a fun meme but I'm sure we can all agree the thameslink core is and always will be at 100% capacity even with crossrail 2. The wcml will still be packed but hs2 will alleviate it a bit.

 

[The Planner]

Not after hs2.

Based on current HS2 plans it still will be.

 

[zwk500]

Not after hs2.

The space vacated by HS2 is required for London-Birmingham local trains.

Nah let's build a flyover whilst we're at it.

Good luck with that at Wembley.

however unrealistic this option is it's still more plausible than creating a bespoke tri mode intercity train through thameseslink

Neither are plausible.