National Express Coaches Discussion

[markymark2000]

The routes need good frequencies especially to / from airports where you may be delayed on arrival. Given the growth of low cost airlines and high car parking charges at airports there is a huge market to tap into. Furthermore Rail connections to LHR are very limited and most rail services dont start until too late to get an early flight both of which mean even more passengers who may go by coach.

This is both a solution and the problem though. People who aren't going to the airports, hate having routes which divert to the airports, because there is often too much of a time penalty and/or the dwell time. Heathrow for example on an M4 corridor service, it is around a 20 minute diversion just for Central Bus Station. 5 minutes or so each way from the motorway into Heathrow, plus 10 minutes dwell. That's a long time to add to a journey for one stop and you may make a few pounds on airport passengers, but you can lose your distance passengers.

Oh and by the way have you seen the cost of taxis / private hire to most airports?

Airports are charging more and more fees for taxis to serve there. We've already seen it with Edinburgh and Bristol that airports are going the same way, charging extortionate fees for buses, which then ultimately has to be passed onto the customer. I don't know if airports are as good as they used to be. Not with their stupid amount of greed and anti competitive, exclusivity concession agreements.

It may well be that the days of a nationwide network are gone and that Nexp has to concentrate on core routes (the majority of which go to / from London) plus airport services.

The nationwide network demand is still there, if NatEx got off their behind and brought in route planners who had half a clue what they were doing. Forcing people to change at Birmingham is what killed the nationwide network. People want and value the through links. Or the constant trying to save pennies but losing pounds such as the night routes having an hour sat around Birmingham. These were double manned routes under Parks, but when they moved to Selwyns, to save money they now have long breaks in Birmingham for drivers to have a 45. How many passengers now don't travel as a result of silly things like this? You've saved on driver costs, but also upset passengers.

There is a viable business there

It would help if NX didn't keep trying to rip people off. The NatEx/Eurolines/Bus Eireann 871 service is £12 more expensive if you buy it via NatEx rather than Bus Eireann. Even more if you consider the ongoing 30% discount that Bus Eireann is offering. Where is the incentive for me to travel or even book with NX? They are literally ripping you off when you can get the same ticket, so much cheaper.

 

[nick291]

The nationwide network demand is still there, if NatEx got off their behind and brought in route planners who had half a clue what they were doing. Forcing people to change at Birmingham is what killed the nationwide network. People want and value the through links. Or the constant trying to save pennies but losing pounds such as the night routes having an hour sat around Birmingham. These were double manned routes under Parks, but when they moved to Selwyns, to save money they now have long breaks in Birmingham for drivers to have a 45. How many passengers now don't travel as a result of silly things like this? You've saved on driver costs, but also upset passengers.

This strategy works for the freight industry, not the bus and coach industry. Both are similar but have vastly different needs. NatEx needs some proper bus and coach people running it.

It would help if NX didn't keep trying to rip people off. The NatEx/Eurolines/Bus Eireann 871 service is £12 more expensive if you buy it via NatEx rather than Bus Eireann. Even more if you consider the ongoing 30% discount that Bus Eireann is offering. Where is the incentive for me to travel or even book with NX? They are literally ripping you off when you can get the same ticket, so much cheaper.

Anyone here been on the 871? Want to give it a try next year. Only been on the 890 but that was a domestic trip between Bristol and Reading Mereoak when that was a thing.

 

[Martin1988]

I do think there would be some merit in NX having some 'through' journeys but surely a series of shorter journeys which connect in Birmingham cost less to operate and breakdowns are presumably easier to deal with? Plus I'm pretty sure that since NX have started splitting journeys in Birmingham the overall journey frequency to some destinations (e.g. Bristol) has been more flexible than it was when services were previously 'through services'?

Its now been nearly a year since NX introduced services from Birmingham to Bristol Airport and personally I've never seen a very full coach on this section of the route and like with Bath, there is a high frequency bus connection available in Bristol so on the one hand I've never quite understood why NX choose to serve it but there clearly must be money to be made.

 

[markymark2000]

I do think there would be some merit in NX having some 'through' journeys but surely a series of shorter journeys which connect in Birmingham cost less to operate and breakdowns are presumably easier to deal with? Plus I'm pretty sure that since NX have started splitting journeys in Birmingham the overall journey frequency to some destinations (e.g. Bristol) has been more flexible than it was when services were previously 'through services'?

As proven with Flixbus, people value some of these distance journeys. Bristol to Leeds has upto 5 coaches per day with Flixbus. Of which, 3 are 4 hour journeys and so a single driver can do a round trip (no feeder drivers or driver swaps needed). NatEx provides 0. Bristol - Manchester none stop, who'd have thought that would do well, yet Flixbus now operate upto 4 buses per day none stop. Again, journey time of 4 hours so no drive swaps needed.

You can also operate through journeys with NX Aston/Travelstar European duties as then the drivers can swap mid trip and so the cost doesn't really increase as it's the same resource as using 1 driver for the 120 and then 1 driver for the 100 or 111 etc.

breakdowns are presumably easier to deal with

If you planned a bus network around potential break downs, you'd be pretty stuffed and never run anything more than 10 miles from the depot. And all such comments can be debunked by the Cornwall-London and Scotland-London routes. Both sets of routes are also proof that through journeys work. How long would all of the Cornwall stuff last if all trips terminated at Bristol and people had to connect onto the 040 or 100 to London or Birmingham respectively?

 

[Mwanesh]

It’s imploding terrible. Safety features gone it the window. I remember when under no circumstances would a coach go out without a working alcolock. Funny how that doesn’t matter when a few pounds can be saved. Controllers don’t care about route cancellations or late running or road closures. Drivers getting lost. Services being cancelled passengers not being told and fighting for refunds. It’s dropped so far it’s quite shocking from what we can see on the outside. No idea what it looks like from the outside. It’s clear Nat ex won’t be around much longer, should Mobico persist to hang on to it.

Birmingham as a hub makes it easy .How many Flix routes are through.Through routes are hard to manage

 

[nick291]

Birmingham as a hub makes it easy .How many Flix routes are through.Through routes are hard to manage

Not if you have the right people and operators on board, Flix manage just fine.

 

[markymark2000]

How many Flix routes are through.Through routes are hard to manage

Quite a few. Depends how you look at it though.
021/N21, N23, 030/N30, 070, 078.
021/N21/N23 are ran by Prospect and they just do a driver swap in Birmingham so each driver does a round trip of either the north or south sections. 030/N30 are done by McGills and they double man from Glasgow to London.
070 is done by First Bristol and the journey is 4hrs end to end so the driver does a round trip with a 45 breaks in Leeds. 078 is Berry's and Watts and they have a break at a services along the way (I think they normally use Tamworth). More through trips to come too I believe.

It's also worth noting that Megabus managed fine and they ran a lot of services through Birmingham (not terminating/starting there).

National express also did it fine for many years so it's clearly all doable without too much hassle. It's just NatEx planners saving pennies but costing pounds in lost revenue and upset passengers.

 

[Titfield]

This is both a solution and the problem though. People who aren't going to the airports, hate having routes which divert to the airports.

That is the nub of the problem: is there enough traffic to run London Victoria only services and therefore Heathrow only services or not?
Arguably this is virtually. Lhr only problem as the other airports aren’t that much on line of route to other big towns and cities that would generate the traffic.

I am not sure there is enough demand for many cross country routes. I occasionally travel from the south coast to Birmingham but the journey times and lack of frequency render it a non starter for me.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Bristol - Manchester none stop, who'd have thought that would do well, yet Flixbus now operate upto 4 buses per day none stop. Again, journey time of 4 hours so no drive swaps needed

I do wonder if that demand is a reflection of how poor the railway offering is thanks to XC, and so other similar flows may be less successful.

 

[Benjwri]

I do wonder if that demand is a reflection of how poor the railway offering is thanks to XC, and so other similar flows may be less successful.

I do think that CrossCountry's routes are a potential growth point though. CrossCountry has a reputation for being overcrowded and expensive now, and many of their routes are quite slow, to the point the coach becomes competitive. Bristol to Birmingham is a good example of this, barely being slower than the train. In my opinion there is room to expand onto some of these routes. I do however still think they risk falling into the same pitfall that coach travel just isn't that convenient for those who live outside city centers. Take Bristol, there is no reasonable long stay parking near the coach station, and for anyone who lives further than a bus ride away taking a coach quickly becomes unfeasible, with the coach station being far from temple meads, and adding the existing 'starting price' onto both train and coach tickets meaning the price can often fall short of competitive too.

 

[Titfield]

I do think that CrossCountry's routes are a potential growth point though. CrossCountry has a reputation for being overcrowded and expensive now, and many of their routes are quite slow, to the point the coach becomes competitive. Bristol to Birmingham is a good example of this, barely being slower than the train. In my opinion there is room to expand onto some of these routes. I do however still think they risk falling into the same pitfall that coach travel just isn't that convenient for those who live outside city centers. Take Bristol, there is no reasonable long stay parking near the coach station, and for anyone who lives further than a bus ride away taking a coach quickly becomes unfeasible, with the coach station being far from temple meads, and adding the existing 'starting price' onto both train and coach tickets meaning the price can often fall short of competitive too.

Yes it is the classic comparison (trade off) between price, customer offering and convenience. Each potential customers weighs up the merits and demerits of each option.

I would agree that Cross Country isnt a particularly attractive proposition and NExp could do more to attract custom on competing routes.

 

[Statto]

Yes it is the classic comparison (trade off) between price, customer offering and convenience. Each potential customers weighs up the merits and demerits of each option.

I would agree that Cross Country isnt a particularly attractive proposition and NExp could do more to attract custom on competing routes.

The other thing being location of the stop(s), like in Bristol were it's a bit of a hike from the City Centre to Temple Meads, National Express could/should be promoting stuff like this.

 

[coach fan]

So a load of customer service assistants were due to be made redundant in January with others having their hours cut. That has now been cancelled. Clown company. Duty cards have also been released for the owned ops Stansted operation. Clearly haven’t been proof-read. Riddled with errors. Some illegal errors on there. Still being told to follow them. Jesus wept what has happened to this company? Flixbus really need to go in for the kill now.

 

[markymark2000]

That is the nub of the problem: is there enough traffic to run London Victoria only services and therefore Heathrow only services or not?

Seems to be mixed. Some routes handle both London and Heathrow separately (Bristol, Birmingham, Cardiff), others have both on the same route (Southampton, Gloucester)

I am not sure there is enough demand for many cross country routes. I occasionally travel from the south coast to Birmingham but the journey times and lack of frequency render it a non starter for me.

I think the demand is higher than NatEx provide in some cases, especially cross Birmingham demand. Also interestingly NatEx never seemed to make a Woodhead Pass route work, yet Flixbus 079 has operated daily for a while, and it's being boosted next year to provide 3 trips daily. How could NatEx not make it work, but Flix thinks there is demand for 3 trips daily? Something is off here and either Flixbus is running on no profit at all, or NatEx just can't attract customers.

I do wonder if that demand is a reflection of how poor the railway offering is thanks to XC, and so other similar flows may be less successful.

I believe that is the case. But it makes a great point that National Express hasn't and doesn't adapt the network to take advantage of these things. I look at all of the rail engineering works which keep going on and NatEx doesn't seem to want to capitalise on it at all. For example in January next year, I'd be looking at running extra Birmingham/Manchester to Glasgow trips with all of the trains being all over the place. In Feb, I'd be looking at more services to/from Manchester and the Airport given all of the work on Ardwick. Etc etc. You get the idea.

Flixbus really need to go in for the kill now.

Already in progress for some areas. Flix can't go into Stanstead though due to the stupid concession agreement rubbish.

 

[darloscott]

Seems to be mixed. Some routes handle both London and Heathrow separately (Bristol, Birmingham, Cardiff), others have both on the same route (Southampton, Gloucester)


I think the demand is higher than NatEx provide in some cases, especially cross Birmingham demand. Also interestingly NatEx never seemed to make a Woodhead Pass route work, yet Flixbus 079 has operated daily for a while, and it's being boosted next year to provide 3 trips daily. How could NatEx not make it work, but Flix thinks there is demand for 3 trips daily? Something is off here and either Flixbus is running on no profit at all, or NatEx just can't attract customers.


I believe that is the case. But it makes a great point that National Express hasn't and doesn't adapt the network to take advantage of these things. I look at all of the rail engineering works which keep going on and NatEx doesn't seem to want to capitalise on it at all. For example in January next year, I'd be looking at running extra Birmingham/Manchester to Glasgow trips with all of the trains being all over the place. In Feb, I'd be looking at more services to/from Manchester and the Airport given all of the work on Ardwick. Etc etc. You get the idea.


Already in progress for some areas. Flix can't go into Stanstead though due to the stupid concession agreement rubbish.

Flix are very pally with the Flibco team… and indeed already sell tickets on their Stansted service.

 

[Titfield]

Seems to be mixed. Some routes handle both London and Heathrow separately (Bristol, Birmingham, Cardiff), others have both on the same route (Southampton, Gloucester)


I think the demand is higher than NatEx provide in some cases, especially cross Birmingham demand. Also interestingly NatEx never seemed to make a Woodhead Pass route work, yet Flixbus 079 has operated daily for a while, and it's being boosted next year to provide 3 trips daily. How could NatEx not make it work, but Flix thinks there is demand for 3 trips daily? Something is off here and either Flixbus is running on no profit at all, or NatEx just can't attract customers.


I believe that is the case. But it makes a great point that National Express hasn't and doesn't adapt the network to take advantage of these things. I look at all of the rail engineering works which keep going on and NatEx doesn't seem to want to capitalise on it at all. For example in January next year, I'd be looking at running extra Birmingham/Manchester to Glasgow trips with all of the trains being all over the place. In Feb, I'd be looking at more services to/from Manchester and the Airport given all of the work on Ardwick. Etc etc. You get the idea.


Already in progress for some areas. Flix can't go into Stanstead though due to the stupid concession agreement rubbish.

Which is why you need local intelligence so you know the local market and capitalise on it.

I wonder how much nexp decision making is in an office in Spain?

 

[markymark2000]

Flix are very pally with the Flibco team… and indeed already sell tickets on their Stansted service.

Wasn't that just because Flix wanted to get into Stansted though, and this was the only way because of the concession arrangement which means Flix would either have to buy out Flibco UK, wait for NX to give up a concession, or wait for the next contract?

And just because Flix sell tickets on Flibco, it's extremely poorly put into the booking engine as Stanstead Train and Coach stops are listed as completely separate destinations (rather than child stops of one main Stanstead area) so depending on what you select, you may not even see the Flibco options anyway. Also because of Flixbus dire booking system which prevents connections unless it's the exact same stop, Flibco routes are a mess and aren't advertised properly from Stratford.

 

[Brightonboy]

That is the nub of the problem: is there enough traffic to run London Victoria only services and therefore Heathrow only services or not?
Arguably this is virtually. Lhr only problem as the other airports aren’t that much on line of route to other big towns and cities that would generate the traffic.

I am not sure there is enough demand for many cross country routes. I occasionally travel from the south coast to Birmingham but the journey times and lack of frequency render it a non starter for me.

Does the LHR stop for coaches provide a more convenient interchange between services than Victoria coach station (I know someone who recently went Norwich - Southampton changing at LHR)? Does the LHR stop also provide a more convenient connection to/from the London Underground compared to Victoria?

 

[markymark2000]

I know someone who recently went Norwich - Southampton changing at LHR

That is, in part, due to the lack of services between Norwich and Victoria (only 3 per day, but there are 10 per day to Heathrow).

 

[Titfield]

Does the LHR stop for coaches provide a more convenient interchange between services than Victoria coach station (I know someone who recently went Norwich - Southampton changing at LHR)? Does the LHR stop also provide a more convenient connection to/from the London Underground compared to Victoria?

Yes changing at LHR can provide better connections for certain services - it depends on the two services routings.

Getting from LHR to parts of London can be slow and expensive - again it just depends on the ultimate destination. Hammersmith / Earls Court can be a very handy stop rather than going all the way to Victoria.

 

[Brightonboy]

When I mentioned convenience I was also thinking of the physical movement of the passenger between modes - It's been years since I went to Victoria coach station but walking from there to the tube was (is?) a trek and in bad weather with luggage not pleasant. A walk from LHR Central Bus Station to the Piccadilly or Elizabeth Line (step free) seems no less pleasant with the added advantage of boarding at the start of the line so more chance of a seat compared to fighting the crush in the centre.

 

[Titfield]

When I mentioned convenience I was also thinking of the physical movement of the passenger between modes - It's been years since I went to Victoria coach station but walking from there to the tube was (is?) a trek and in bad weather with luggage not pleasant. A walk from LHR Central Bus Station to the Piccadilly or Elizabeth Line (step free) seems no less pleasant with the added advantage of boarding at the start of the line so more chance of a seat compared to fighting the crush in the centre.

I have walked from Victoria Coach to Victoria Rail / Underground loads of times. For some reason perhaps it is the number of people on the pavement and / or usually having at least a bag it does seem a bit onerous. LHR seems better I think because it is undercover so no weather effects and people are walking with pirpose rather than getting in the way as they seem to on Buckingham Palace Road.

 

[coach fan]

Which is why you need local intelligence so you know the local market and capitalise on it.

I wonder how much nexp decision making is in an office in Spain?

Not yet. That comes in January when they officially “merge”. Lol

 

[Titfield]

Not yet. That comes in January when they officially “merge”. Lol

Muchas Gracias Senor

 

[Statto]

Issue with Heathrow is the premium fares, NEX staff check tickets those getting off at Heathrow, it's much cheaper to stay on the coach to Central London than use Heathrow.

 

[nick291]

Issue with Heathrow is the premium fares, NEX staff check tickets those getting off at Heathrow, it's much cheaper to stay on the coach to Central London than use Heathrow.

Do they? Didn't have them check my ticket getting off at Heathrow in February.

 

[Titfield]

Do they? Didn't have them check my ticket getting off at Heathrow in February.

The ticket checking is somewhat spasmodic in my experience. Nexp know they can (and do) charge higher fares to LHR than VIC because of the relative strength of their customer offering.

Obviously they check tickets on services that go xxx-LHR-VIC. Of the servcie is going elsewhere rather than VIC they dont seem to bother

 

[F Great Eastern]

It’s imploding terrible. Safety features gone it the window. I remember when under no circumstances would a coach go out without a working alcolock. Funny how that doesn’t matter when a few pounds can be saved. Controllers don’t care about route cancellations or late running or road closures. Drivers getting lost. Services being cancelled passengers not being told and fighting for refunds. It’s dropped so far it’s quite shocking from what we can see on the outside. No idea what it looks like from the outside. It’s clear Nat ex won’t be around much longer, should Mobico persist to hang on to it.

Doesn't say a lot about the safety culture at the parent organisation does it.

And moving a lot of the UK responsibility to people based in Spain is never going to be a good thing.

Might be good news for First in Ireland though, as National Express Ireland is running rings round them where they compete.

The loadings on the 717 have been killed by the nidicolous gap in evening services ex Stansted, price hikes and the competition from the X20.

 

[coach fan]

Doesn't say a lot about the safety culture at the parent organisation does it.

And moving a lot of the UK responsibility to people based in Spain is never going to be a good thing.

Might be good news for First in Ireland though, as National Express Ireland is running rings round them where they compete.

The loadings on the 717 have been killed by the nidicolous gap in evening services ex Stansted, price hikes and the competition from the X20.

It was never about safety. Ok. Maybe a bit was. It was more to use it as a stick to beat drivers and enforce authority. Maybe a bad thing. Maybe not a bad thing. But it was never 100% safety. The amount of vehicles going out with serious faults is also concerning. Alternators on their last legs. Batteries on last legs. Even saw a break linings worn warning on a scania the other. Fit for service driver…..

The contract with Scania lifeline has also been cancelled. Maintenance will now be done at Bournemouth depot. 100 miles away from Stansted depot and Luton etc.

 

[Titfield]

It was never about safety. Ok. Maybe a bit was. It was more to use it as a stick to beat drivers and enforce authority. Maybe a bad thing. Maybe not a bad thing. But it was never 100% safety. The amount of vehicles going out with serious faults is also concerning. Alternators on their last legs. Batteries on last legs. Even saw a break linings worn warning on a scania the other. Fit for service driver…..

The contract with Scania lifeline has also been cancelled. Maintenance will now be done at Bournemouth depot. 100 miles away from Stansted depot and Luton etc.

It’s a fair old hike from Stansted to bmth and very prone to significant delays on the m25 and m3. On the Scalia dash is the brake warning light orange or red?