Potential service improvements resulting from Leeds platform 17 extension?

[Bob85]

Moderator note: Split from

Leeds Station Improvement

Leeds Civic Trust newsletter refers to a new platform being added and small improvements to New Station Street. Not aware of any details online elsewhere?

www.railforums.co.uk

Does anyone know what the actual service benefits of an extended platform 17 will be? That's assuming there will be any at all.

I suppose what I'm asking is whether this could lead into longer trains on the routes that almost always use that platform, particularly the congested Leeds -> Sheffield -> Nottingham stopper. Could we see 3 or 4 carriage trains become more common?

 

[skyhigh]

I suppose what I'm asking is whether this could lead into longer trains on the routes that almost always use that platform, particularly the congested Leeds -> Sheffield -> Nottingham stopper. Could we see 3 or 4 carriage trains become more common?

That is the reason why they are lengthening platform 17. Longer trains currently won't fit and there's nowhere else to platform them.

 

[Bob85]

That is the reason why they are lengthening platform 17. Longer trains currently won't fit and there's nowhere else to platform them.

Can we therefore expect to see longer trains somewhat soon after the platform extension? Or is it hard to tell at this point?

 

[skyhigh]

Can we therefore expect to see longer trains somewhat soon after the platform extension? Or is it hard to tell at this point?

As soon as the platform is ready and there is sufficient stock. But it'll be a while yet before work even starts on 17.

 

[Halish Railway]

One thing that needs to be taken into account is the length of the north facing bay platforms at Sheffield. Ultimately the fast services from Lincoln and Nottingham need to fit into those platforms as both services interwork, along with another unit that is used on a Leeds stopper or services towards Huddersfield, York and Adwick. This will probably limit the semi-fast services to three carriages, which is still a big improvement over the status quo.

I’d imagine that before Northern receive their new trains the best option would be to reform displaced TFW Class 158s into 3 carriage trains for use on the fast services to Nottingham and Lincoln and use the displaced 195/0s to lengthen the York to Blackpool North and Leeds to Manchester Victoria/Chester services to become 4 and 5 carriage long trains.

I don’t see the service pattern of the services that use platform 17 changing any time soon, apart from a stop at Normanton hopefully being added to one of the fast services.

 

[ricoblade]

We discussed Nothern's 2-car approach to the Lincoln-Leeds (via Sheffield) service on this thread 3 years ago: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-cancellations-getting-worse.236733/page-32.

I recenctly used the service again a couple of time on Saturday mornings and they were already very busy at Retford and rammed afer Worksop where I'm not sure everyone got on. On one service, the doors did not open at Shireoaks, leaving would-be passengers on the platform but luckily I bailed at Kiveton Park, where thankfully the doors did open.

It seems that they are still running a completely inadequte 2 car service (especially in the run up to xmas with increased shoppers and party-goers) and I was wondering if the same factors (e.g. Platform 17 at Leeds) apply.

It puts me off wanting to use it and I'm looking at (a lot slower) bus options.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Platform 17 is still as it is so they are still 2 car.

 

[Freemo]

Is restoration of the short-lived Sheffield-Gainsborough Central services on the radar? I know when I get off the Leeds-Lincoln that leaves Sheffield at 17.38 it feels like The Beatles trying to exit the stage door circa 1964!

 

[Iskra]

Is restoration of the short-lived Sheffield-Gainsborough Central services on the radar? I know when I get off the Leeds-Lincoln that leaves Sheffield at 17.38 it feels like The Beatles trying to exit the stage door circa 1964!

This would be good, but I think Northern are using their limited spare resources elsewhere.

We discussed Nothern's 2-car approach to the Lincoln-Leeds (via Sheffield) service on this thread 3 years ago: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-cancellations-getting-worse.236733/page-32.

I recenctly used the service again a couple of time on Saturday mornings and they were already very busy at Retford and rammed afer Worksop where I'm not sure everyone got on. On one service, the doors did not open at Shireoaks, leaving would-be passengers on the platform but luckily I bailed at Kiveton Park, where thankfully the doors did open.

It seems that they are still running a completely inadequte 2 car service (especially in the run up to xmas with increased shoppers and party-goers) and I was wondering if the same factors (e.g. Platform 17 at Leeds) apply.

It puts me off wanting to use it and I'm looking at (a lot slower) bus options.

I’m actually going to defend Northern here. As a regular on the Hallam line and other Leeds-South Yorkshire trains, the Lincoln trains are by far the quieter of the two semi-fast services. These will already be relieved somewhat between Sheffield and Leeds by the new Northern fast services, as well as some of the Nottingham services being temporarily 4-carriages. It’s now a busy time of year, particularly so at weekends but these services being two car is the least worst option available to Northern within their current fleet. They aren’t usually that busy between Sheffield and Lincoln either.

 

[Kite159]

Ideal world those services would get split at Sheffield (so Leeds - Sheffield & a Sheffield - Lincoln service). That way the Lincoln part can be made longer to cope with the crowds between Sheffield & Lincoln.

Just be thankful Lincoln doesn't do a Christmas market anymore

 

[Iskra]

Ideal world those services would get split at Sheffield (so Leeds - Sheffield & a Sheffield - Lincoln service). That way the Lincoln part can be made longer to cope with the crowds between Sheffield & Lincoln.

Just be thankful Lincoln doesn't do a Christmas market anymore

If they were split like that, any strengthening wouldn’t be happening on the Lincoln side The Lincoln trains are seen as quieter, they are only truly busy on Saturdays or when football is on South of Sheffield.

 

[Freemo]

I feel like Leeds/Sheffield/Lincoln flows are focused on at the cost of the probably quite substantial number of commuters into and out of Sheffield from stops to Retford.

For example, Worksop has more entries/exits in last year's statistics than Rotherham which gets 2ph from Sheffield plus trams. Probably a bad example because it includes Nottingham services but I would imagine there aren't many end-to-end commuters that way. I think there's also been a few new estates built around the Kivetons.

 

[JonathanH]

They aren’t usually that busy between Sheffield and Lincoln either.

It sounds like the proverbial "Saturday morning problem" where trains which are sufficient to meet demand for most of the week have a difficulty dealing with demand on Saturday mornings.

 

[Freemo]

Looking at the possibly dubious station flows data here, Worksop is the most popular origin for Sheffield that only has 1tph most of the day after York (weird one because it varies from 1 to 3 tph) and Manchester Airport (no direct services at all any more).

 

[Taunton]

We discussed Northern's 2-car approach to the Lincoln-Leeds (via Sheffield) service on this thread 3 years ago:

Be grateful for 2 cars. When I used this service some years ago it was a single 153. It came into Sheffield at 4pm, with standees, where the passengers waiting, mostly college students, were way beyond capacity; there was a huge push to board which impeded everyone getting out.

 

[ricoblade]

It sounds like the proverbial "Saturday morning problem" where trains which are sufficient to meet demand for most of the week have a difficulty dealing with demand on Saturday mornings.

Agreed, that is the issue but that doesn't make it right to under-resource the service. On a passenger-focused railway that wants to attract more passengers, this would be noticed and a solution found.

 

[3RDGEN]

Agreed, that is the issue but that doesn't make it right to under-resource the service. On a passenger-focused railway that wants to attract more passengers, this would be noticed and a solution found.

It is being addressed as per the plans for Platform 17 at Leeds, "https://www.yourvoice.westyorks-ca.gov.uk/leeds-platform17", a £40 million project plus the cost of extra rolling stock. In the FAQ section it claims longer trains will be possible from 2027 which I find hard to believe as I can't see the works at Leeds been completed by then and Northern haven't got the rolling stock at present. In the short term there isn't any other option, Northern don't have the stock to reinstate the extra train to Gainsborough and Leeds - Sheffield is more of a priority hence the new hourly express service in the new timetable.

 

[YorksLad12]

It is being addressed as per the plans for Platform 17 at Leeds, "https://www.yourvoice.westyorks-ca.gov.uk/leeds-platform17", a £40 million project plus the cost of extra rolling stock. In the FAQ section it claims longer trains will be possible from 2027 which I find hard to believe as I can't see the works at Leeds been completed by then and Northern haven't got the rolling stock at present.

But you quoted it yourself: "will be possible." Doesn't mean it's actually going to happen

Since it probably won't happen until after 2027 (there being no funding yet, I seem to remember), there's a chance Northern might have gained some additional units by then.

 

[Iskra]

There’s a reasonable chance of Northern inheriting some units by that time.

Some persons in orange, have been doing overnight surveying with theodolites outside the South side of the station along Pitt Row this week. Could be entirely unrelated however?

 

[Topological]

Under GBR, is there scope for the unused Voyagers to provide the fast Sheffield-Leeds service? Crewed by CrossCountry (essentially) as they have the knowledge, but of course the distinction between CrossCountry and Northern would be unimportant. That would free units to extend the Nottingham/Lincoln diagram.

I know the voyagers would not be much different to a shorter DMU, but they are available capacity.

 

[YorksLad12]

Under GBR, is there scope for the unused Voyagers to provide the fast Sheffield-Leeds service? Crewed by CrossCountry (essentially) as they have the knowledge, but of course the distinction between CrossCountry and Northern would be unimportant. That would free units to extend the Nottingham/Lincoln diagram.

I know the voyagers would not be much different to a shorter DMU, but they are available capacity.

Obvious issues to surmount would be: does XC have drivers to spare? Can the longer units be platformed at either end? And what to do with First Class (Northern generally doesn't have it). I'd rather have some 158s, but take your point that the 220s are, at least, already cleared for the route (and could bed down for the night at Crofton with XC's units).

 

[Iskra]

Obvious issues to surmount would be: does XC have drivers to spare? Can the longer units be platformed at either end? And what to do with First Class (Northern generally doesn't have it). I'd rather have some 158s, but take your point that the 220s are, at least, already cleared for the route (and could bed down for the night at Crofton with XC's units).

The obvious solution would just be to give them XC to be used on South West-Scotland via Yorkshire services only, then they could run between Leeds and Sheffield, with zero extra drivers required and no complications by involving Northern.

 

[YorksLad12]

The obvious solution would just be to give them XC to be used on South West-Scotland via Yorkshire services only, then they could run between Leeds and Sheffield, with zero extra drivers required and no complications by involving Northern.

Indeed.

 

[Topological]

Obvious issues to surmount would be: does XC have drivers to spare? Can the longer units be platformed at either end? And what to do with First Class (Northern generally doesn't have it). I'd rather have some 158s, but take your point that the 220s are, at least, already cleared for the route (and could bed down for the night at Crofton with XC's units).

Extra drivers is really just the same as when Northern needed drivers for the new fast service in the first place.

My main thinking is just that there is a (albeit more complex) solution that uses existing units and allows strengthening of the Nottingham/Lincoln-Leeds diagram.

First class would presumably just be declassified - or since this is GBR - kept as a GBR train can have first class.