Railcard minimum fare and Day Ranger tickets

[cactustwirly]

Does the £12 minimum fare apply to Day Ranger tickets?

Been told conflicting information by 2 different tickets offices. One claims it does and the other said it's an exception?

 

[Watershed]

I don't see why it wouldn't apply. Only Advance tickets are mentioned as being excluded from the minimum fare's scope.

 

[cactustwirly]

I don't see why it wouldn't apply. Only Advance tickets are mentioned as being excluded from the minimum fare's scope.

I was literally sold one today at a ticket office and they were adamant it would be valid before 10am...

 

[Watershed]

I was literally sold one today at a ticket office and they were adamant it would be valid before 10am...

Well you're entitled to rely on what they said, under section 50 of the Consumer Rights Act. But I'm sure you're well aware that there are a lot of frontline staff who have their own ideas of how the rules work.

 

[cactustwirly]

Well you're entitled to rely on what they said, under section 50 of the Consumer Rights Act. But I'm sure you're well aware that there are a lot of frontline staff who have their own ideas of how the rules work.

The onus shouldn't be on the consumer to work out the ticket they have been sold isn't valid.
You don't go to a cinema and buy tickets wondering if they're valid for the film you're intending to see, would be ridiculous

 

[Haywain]

You don't go to a cinema and buy tickets wondering if they're valid for the film you're intending to see, would be ridiculous

You don't go to the cinema and buy tickets with any sort of flexibility, so the comparison is pointless.

 

[cactustwirly]

You don't go to the cinema and buy tickets with any sort of flexibility, so the comparison is pointless.

I think it is valid, as some tickets are special offers which are only valid at certain times.
You don't expect to be mis-sold tickets that are not valid

 

[furlong]

How much was the Day Ranger?

If it was more then £12 then perhaps they are simply applying a straightforward interpretation of the current railcard terms and conditions which grant the full discount if the original price is above £12, the advertised discount being 1/3 off:

4.5. The 16-25 Railcard has a minimum fare that applies from 04.30 and 10.00 Monday to Friday. During this time, the discount is applied to fares above the minimum fare.

 

[cactustwirly]

How much was the Day Ranger?

If it was more then £12 then perhaps they are simply applying a straightforward interpretation of the current railcard terms and conditions which grant the full discount if the original price is above £12, the advertised discount being 1/3 off:

£11.30 with the Railcard, £17 without

 

[styles]

To be honest I think the wording of the minimum fare clause is poor anyway.

From the 16-25 Railcard terms:

4.5. The 16-25 Railcard has a minimum fare that applies from 04.30 and 10.00 Monday to Friday. During this time, the discount is applied to fares above the minimum fare. This minimum fare does not apply to:
4.5.1. Advance tickets; or
4.5.2. journeys on public holidays; or
4.5.3. journeys during July and August.
At the time of printing, the minimum fare is £12. The minimum fare is subject to change during the validity of your Railcard - check website for the most up to date information.

My reading of that is actually that, given your fare was £17, applying the 1/3rd discount correctly takes it down to £11.30 (rounded) regardless of ticket type.

If the net effect is to have all fares £12+ when a Railcard is applied during that period, then the wording ought to be something like, "During this time, a fare which would fall below £12 after applying the discount shall have a fare of £12.", or something like that.

The current term could be interpreted to gross fares, whereas they really ought to reflect what should happen if a net fare is below the minimum.

But that is frankly challenging the interpretation of a clause on a Railcard which has existed for a very very long time. I don't have deep enough pockets to start a 'group claim' on this!

I otherwise agree with @Watershed - that's what you've been told as a consumer, you're entitled to rely on it, but doesn't mean you won't get a hard time somewhere along the way.

 

[blimmo]

I'm personally of the opinion that the minimum fare condition was introduced with the intent of applying to the gross fare but has (always?) been interpreted by the train companies as applying to the net fare. Tbh I think it's fairly clear and I always assumed the only reason for interpreting it as applying to the net fare would be if you got more money that way...

 

[HST274]

Is there any official consensus on this? I'm planning to get a devon day ranger soon (before 10) and just want to be clear whether it should cost £17, £12 or £11.30.

 

[OscarH]

I'm personally of the opinion that the minimum fare condition was introduced with the intent of applying to the gross fare but has (always?) been interpreted by the train companies as applying to the net fare. Tbh I think it's fairly clear and I always assumed the only reason for interpreting it as applying to the net fare would be if you got more money that way...

I think that would be a bad interpretation because it creates a cliff edge

 

[redreni]

If they dispensed with the explanation and just said there's a minimum fare at these times (and set out the exceptions) they would save themselves a lot of hassle. That way it's clear that a ticket with the discount applied can't cost less than the minimum fare. Tickets that cost less than £12 to begin with needn't be discussed because obviously, given the minimum fare, it is better to pay full price for such a ticket rather than pay the minimum fare for the railcard-discounted version.

Condition 4.3 of the Network Railcard T&Cs seems to me to be adequately drafted.

4.3. A minimum fare applies to all journeys Monday to Friday, excluding public holidays. At the time of printing, the minimum fare is £13. [...]

Since the wording of the equivalent clause in the 16-25 Railcard T&Cs is worded materially differently, one can only assume it means something different.

The meaning seems very pretty clear.

4.5. The 16-25 Railcard has a minimum fare that applies from 04.30 and 10.00 Monday to Friday. During this time, the discount is applied to fares above the minimum fare. This minimum fare does not apply to:

4.5.1. Advance tickets; or

4.5.2. journeys on public holidays; or

4.5.3. journeys during July and August.

At the time of printing, the minimum fare is £12.

There is a self-serving interpretation RDG could take where that means the discount is applied to fares above the minimum fare, subject to the minimum fare. But as drafted, the sentence beginning "During this time" pretty clearly qualifies what comes before it, in my humble opinion.

It does mean if you want to buy a ticket that costs more than £8 but less than £12, you might be better off looking for a slightly more expensive ticket that will cover your intended journey so that you can discount it by a third.

Although I'm not sure if any retailer except maybe some ticket offices would discount a non-Advance ticket to below £12 with a 16-25 Railcard at times when the minimum fare applies, would they? So it might be a case of paying whatever you're charged and then seeking to claim the money back.

 

[Bank Foot AM]

As regards the original question, Knowledgebase is clearer on the subject:

Minimum Fares​

Minimum fares apply to both Standard and First Class tickets, except Advance.

Ticket Types

From 04:30 until 09:59 Monday-Friday (except for on Public Holidays or in July or August):

Standard: Anytime, Off-Peak, and Super Off-Peak - £12.00

First Class: Anytime, Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak - £12.00

Advance: All Standard and First Class ticket types - None

Any day in July and August, any Saturday, Sunday and Public Holiday with any ticket type:

Standard: None

First Class: None

Advance: None

Time Restrictions​

No time restriction is applied to the 16-25 Railcard. However, minimum fares applies (sic) to certain ticket types for both outward and return journeys between 04:30-09:59 Mondays to Fridays between September and June (except Public Holidays).

The 'certain ticket types' have been identified as Anytime, Off-Peak, and Super Off-Peak, so my interpretation is that the minimum fare doesn't apply to other ticket types such as Rangers.

There's probably a better example, but this NRE page for the Waterside Wanderer Day Ranger says it's valid from 09:00 and that the 16-25 Railcard fare is £11.80, no mention of £12.00 before 10:00.

 

[HST274]

I was scouting through threads from a while ago and one had the following image of a GWR internal memo.
Whether that is still the same is difficult to tell though given there is no clarity anywhere online. 70p is such a small thing they probably no longer care, but it's still disappointing there's so much ambiguity to be found everywhere.

 

[Starmill]

I was scouting through threads from a while ago and one had the following image of a GWR internal memo. View attachment 193522
Whether that is still the same is difficult to tell though given there is no clarity anywhere online. 70p is such a small thing they probably no longer care, but it's still disappointing there's so much ambiguity to be found everywhere.

I imagine it's probably quite difficult to persuade some ticket issuing machines to actually provide a Ranger with a minimum fare applied...

 

[Bank Foot AM]

I was scouting through threads from a while ago and one had the following image of a GWR internal memo. View attachment 193522
Whether that is still the same is difficult to tell though given there is no clarity anywhere online. 70p is such a small thing they probably no longer care, but it's still disappointing there's so much ambiguity to be found everywhere.

That suggests that the minimum fare wasn't being applied prior to 15/05/2016. I wonder if this instruction was fully intended or an afterthought arising from the reference to 'minimum fare rules' being included in GWR's leaflet. Did other TOCs issue the same instruction and was it ever rescinded?

NFM 16 (from 08/09/2013, the last easily accessible one) doesn't refer to a minimum fare in connection with, for instance, the Oxfordshire Day Ranger - £10.25 with a 16-25 or HMF Railcard. Nor does the 16-25 Railcard page indicate that a minimum fare applies to anything other than the 'certain ticket types' listed.

 

[HST274]

Well the GWR Fares team (via GWR twitter) have confirmed that the Devon Day Ranger would cost £12 before 10am. I will see whether that is actually what I am charged on the day. Again, given it's only 70p difference I imagine it isn't something that anyone will pick up on, if you bought it online for example.

 

[RPI]

As far as I'm aware, the minimum fare only applies to Anytime, Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak, it's used to be the case that many travelling from Plymouth down into Cornwall used to buy a Cornwall Ranger to (legitimately) avoid the minimum fare on the CDR, however, the particular train in question i haven't worked for a while, I will try and remember to check on my TTK device next time I'm at work and report back!

 

[HST274]

As far as I'm aware, the minimum fare only applies to Anytime, Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak, it's used to be the case that many travelling from Plymouth down into Cornwall used to buy a Cornwall Ranger to (legitimately) avoid the minimum fare on the CDR, however, the particular train in question i haven't worked for a while, I will try and remember to check on my TTK device next time I'm at work and report back!

Interesting! Well as I suspected the ticket office at St David's sold me one for £11.30 and waved away my question about the minimum fare. Just said the only restriction was you have to use it after 845.

Edit: a 2016 thread with the same question can be found here.

 

[bb21]

That suggests that the minimum fare wasn't being applied prior to 15/05/2016. I wonder if this instruction was fully intended or an afterthought arising from the reference to 'minimum fare rules' being included in GWR's leaflet. Did other TOCs issue the same instruction and was it ever rescinded?

NFM 16 (from 08/09/2013, the last easily accessible one) doesn't refer to a minimum fare in connection with, for instance, the Oxfordshire Day Ranger - £10.25 with a 16-25 or HMF Railcard. Nor does the 16-25 Railcard page indicate that a minimum fare applies to anything other than the 'certain ticket types' listed.

It is my understanding that Rangers and Rovers were explicitly excluded from minimum fare provisions previously therefore the above mentioned memo from GWR really surprised me.

 

[RPI]

It is my understanding that Rangers and Rovers were explicitly excluded from minimum fare provisions previously therefore the above mentioned memo from GWR really surprised me.

Yes same, though I'm doubting myself self now, I seem to remember it being flagged a while back, I can't remember what the outcome of that was, half of me thinks it was an issue with the Devon & Cornwall Railcard, but as I say, I'll check tomorrow

 

[Dirty_Mac]

GB Rail Rover site says the Devon Day Ranger is valid from 9am except for ones discounted with the Two Together Railcard, which is valid from 9:30. This seems to match my experience last year, where I got the 9:15 from Plymouth with a railcard discounted ranger.

 

[redreni]

It is my understanding that Rangers and Rovers were explicitly excluded from minimum fare provisions previously therefore the above mentioned memo from GWR really surprised me.

Did they, perhaps, get upset about people undercutting their intended fares by using day rangers to do non-stop splits on fast trains? And/or to undercut day return tickets, as mentioned upthread?

When I looked up prices for a planned trip to Devon I got the feeling somebody had worked quite hard to make the local fares between the split points absurdly high. E.g. Bedwyn to Castle Cary. Underhandedly increasing the price of Day Rangers for certain journeys by bringing them within the scope of minimum fares would only make a minor contribution to the objective of discouraging their use for non-stop splits, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn they had been petty enough to do it for that reason.

Interestingly National Rail's page on the Kennet Day Ranger specifies (redundantly) that the Two Together Railcard price is subject to the minimum fare before 09:30 Monday to Friday (when the ticket itself isn't valid anyway), but makes no such stipulation with respect to any other Railcard (including the Network Railcard which has a minimum fare all day Monday to Friday).

 

[HST274]

Interestingly National Rail's page on the Kennet Day Ranger specifies (redundantly) that the Two Together Railcard price is subject to the minimum fare before 09:30 Monday to Friday (when the ticket itself isn't valid anyway), but makes no such stipulation with respect to any other Railcard (including the Network Railcard which has a minimum fare all day Monday to Friday).

Given the network railcard price is the same despite the minimum surely that would carry across for the others as well in regars to their restrictions?

 

[LowLevel]

I'd be interested to know how they propose to sell a railcard minimum fare discounted ranger - I've just tried the Devon Day Ranger on my TIS (Worldline MTIS/Envoy) and can't find any way to apply the minimum fare as you can with regular tickets without manually overriding the fare.