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Tavistock - Bere Alston Feasibility Study in jeopardy. But what could be done if the money was available?

Falcon1200

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Is anyone actually advocating that everyone give up their cars, that's never going to happen

Indeed it is not, which means that motorists will be paying the fixed costs of their vehicles whether they were to use the railway or not, and moreover the car will be available to them 24/7/365. So getting them to leave the car at home will be neither easy, nor likely.
 
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6Gman

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What I've seen from this analysis so far is that no one wants to cough up the money. That's not the same as concluding that the line wouldn't be popular and well used.
Not only is nobody willing to cough up the money to build the line, no one currently is willing to cough up the 1% needed to carry out a feasibility study.

Which may suggest a weak case.
 

Sir Felix Pole

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Not only is nobody willing to cough up the money to build the line, no one currently is willing to cough up the 1% needed to carry out a feasibility study.

Which may suggest a weak case.
It was selected to be taken forward under the 'Restoring Your Rlys' scheme, suggesting it had merit, but then promptly cancelled by the incoming government after the election. Devon CC is not going to waste money on a feasibility study if there is no prospect of national funding - it already produced a business case for RYoR. Instead it looks as if we are going to continue shovelling taxpayers money towards London and the SE.
 

Bald Rick

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It was selected to be taken forward under the 'Restoring Your Rlys' scheme, suggesting it had merit,

That doesn’t suggest it had merit. It had more merit than the schemes that weren’t taken forward, but that’s bot saying much. I suspect (but don’t know) that there was a political angle to it, as with all the RYR projects it was ‘put up or shut up’.


Instead it looks as if we are going to continue shovelling taxpayers money towards London and the SE.

With Okehampton and Cullompton, Devon has done rather well, don’t you think? Certainly compared to the number of reopenings delivered in London and the South East (and there were several proposed).
 

Magdalia

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It was selected to be taken forward under the 'Restoring Your Rlys' scheme, suggesting it had merit
The Restoring Your Railways scheme was developed in a financial climate very different from now.

Government debt was much lower.

The bond market was charging the UK 2% interest rate on 10 year money, not 4%.

There hadn't been a lot of inflation, particularly in energy costs and labour costs, both of which are very important in the construction industry.

There will be lots of projects that had merit in the past but don't have merit now that the financial climate has changed.
 

rapmastaj

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Devon must be one of the most successful counties in England at promoting rail reopenings. Since 2015, they've already achieved new stations at Newcourt, Cranbrook and Marsh Barton. A regular service has returned to Okehampton, with Okehampton Interchange and Cullompton to follow soon. The Devon Metro is a strong concept and they really know what they're doing. Other local authorities should watch and learn.

If even Devon aren't able to make Tavistock happen, it probably wouldn't happen anywhere in England (under the current gloomy financial climate at least).
 

Xavi

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Devon must be one of the most successful counties in England at promoting rail reopenings. Since 2015, they've already achieved new stations at Newcourt, Cranbrook and Marsh Barton. A regular service has returned to Okehampton, with Okehampton Interchange and Cullompton to follow soon. The Devon Metro is a strong concept and they really know what they're doing. Other local authorities should watch and learn.

If even Devon aren't able to make Tavistock happen, it probably wouldn't happen anywhere in England (under the current gloomy financial climate at least).
The growth in journeys across the Devon Metro area is impressive too.
 

Snow1964

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The growth in journeys across the Devon Metro area is impressive too.
Especially as most of it is on noisy 40 year old 150s, and not due to rolling stock upgrades or introduction of contactless ticketing to make travel easier.
 

yorksrob

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Not only is nobody willing to cough up the money to build the line, no one currently is willing to cough up the 1% needed to carry out a feasibility study.

Which may suggest a weak case.

I thought the whole point of the study was to ascertain whether it had a weak case or not ?

That doesn’t suggest it had merit. It had more merit than the schemes that weren’t taken forward, but that’s bot saying much. I suspect (but don’t know) that there was a political angle to it, as with all the RYR projects it was ‘put up or shut up’.


With Okehampton and Cullompton, Devon has done rather well, don’t you think? Certainly compared to the number of reopenings delivered in London and the South East (and there were several proposed).

The RYR programme achieved more in a few years than the previous twenty of procrastination put together. I don't particularly care whether there was a political angle.

And the South East did get Crossrail and Thameslink 2000 (or whatever it was called, by the time they actually got round to doing it) so it didn't do too badly.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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And the South East did get Crossrail and Thameslink 2000 (or whatever it was called, by the time they actually got round to doing it) so it didn't do too badly.
Comparing those two major rail items above which serve a vast area with population to match to a thread matter that discusses the lack of funding for a feasibility study to establish the possible viability of a short reopened branch line to a small settlement of not much over 10,000 residents is taking comparison rather more than a tad too far.
 

zwk500

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I thought the whole point of the study was to ascertain whether it had a weak case or not ?
Then what's changed since the previous study, which found it had a weak case?
The RYR programme achieved more in a few years than the previous twenty of procrastination put together. I don't particularly care whether there was a political angle.
I'd say RYR achieved less than HS1 phase 2. It opened less track miles outright than Borders or Airdrie-Bathgate.

RYR has reopened 3 new 'lines' - Okehampton (track was already there in irregular use), Northumberland (Line was already passenger-rated for the loop to Morpeth and with regular freight) and will have reopend Portishead (track to Pill in daily use by freight).
It didn't manage to get Marchwood (IMO the most useful proposal), Hoo or Coalville despite all 3 being in the same bracket as the three that opened.
 

yorksrob

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Then what's changed since the previous study, which found it had a weak case?

I'd say RYR achieved less than HS1 phase 2. It opened less track miles outright than Borders or Airdrie-Bathgate.

RYR has reopened 3 new 'lines' - Okehampton (track was already there in irregular use), Northumberland (Line was already passenger-rated for the loop to Morpeth and with regular freight) and will have reopend Portishead (track to Pill in daily use by freight).
It didn't manage to get Marchw ood (IMO the most useful proposal), Hoo or Coalville despite all 3 being in the same bracket as the three that opened.

Something must have happened, otherwise they wouldn't have been considering the second study.

HS1 phase 2 didn't really reach anywhere new - we've had trains between the Kent Coast and London for a long time.

And I don't count the Borders at all, as it was reopened by a separate political jurisdiction, not the hidebound establishment of Whitehall/Westminster.

You state three lines opened/opening in England. I admit, I'd have liked to have seen the other three you mentioned as well, but three out of six is a hell of a lot better than sod all - which is exactly how many we'd have gotten without RYR.
 
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JamesT

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Something must have happened, otherwise they wouldn't have been considering the second study.
Or more likely, in the same way that some topics on this forum come up repeatedly, somebody didn’t like the answer the last study gave and thought that if they did it again maybe this time it would give a different answer.
Which isn’t far off a often quoted definition of madness.
 

yorksrob

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Or more likely, in the same way that some topics on this forum come up repeatedly, somebody didn’t like the answer the last study gave and thought that if they did it again maybe this time it would give a different answer.
Which isn’t far off a often quoted definition of madness.

Or they thought that the proposed new housing might have made a difference.
 

Dr Hoo

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Or they thought that the proposed new housing might have made a difference.
It would be really helpful to non-locals if someone could advise what has happened /is happening /still to happen on the housing front.

E.g. has the ‘Kilbride’ development been completed; is there any more new housing well advanced in the planning pipeline; has it all been built round the site of the proposed station; how much has the population of Tavistock increased as a result; etc..
 

Starmill

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A two car diesel train which needs two staff to operate and carries at the very maximum about 250 people at one time is a pretty wasteful form of transport. Especially when there isn't enough room on the existing network to offer a roughly half hourly service. It's not something to be encouraged by building more routes for, we've already got enough where hourly two car diesels on 15% of daily seat km occupation are soaking up billions of pounds of subsidy for minimal benefit.
 

Bald Rick

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RYR has reopened 3 new 'lines' - Okehampton (track was already there in irregular use), Northumberland (Line was already passenger-rated for the loop to Morpeth and with regular freight) and will have reopend Portishead (track to Pill in daily use by freight).

Portishead isn’t an RYR project.


It would be really helpful to non-locals if someone could advise what has happened /is happening /still to happen on the housing front.

E.g. has the ‘Kilbride’ development been completed; is there any more new housing well advanced in the planning pipeline; has it all been built round the site of the proposed station; how much has the population of Tavistock increased as a result; etc..

There’s certainly new houses to the west of town near the location of the station in the rail proposal, off Callington Road. Plus some more south of town off the Plymouth Road, albeit they are not handy for the station (but very handy for an express bus). Across all of Tavistock, about 600 homes have been built in the last 5-6 years, with about the same to come over the next 5-6. This is all from the Tavistock neighbourhood plan.

The plan also identifies strong local support for the railway (of course!) but also mentions that the railway would be routed through a conservation area, and therefore the railway proposal must protect that.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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There’s certainly new houses to the west of town near the location of the station in the rail proposal, off Callington Road. Plus some more south of town off the Plymouth Road, albeit they are not handy for the station (but very handy for an express bus). Across all of Tavistock, about 600 homes have been built in the last 5-6 years, with about the same to come over the next 5-6. This is all from the Tavistock neighbourhood plan.
In response to an earlier query raised, can I ask how many of these new houses were actually constructed by the Kilbride Group, the company involved quite some years ago now, who were involved in the original plans that included a new railway station as part of the 750 new houses development package.
 

Bald Rick

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In response to an earlier query raised, can I ask how many of these new houses were actually constructed by the Kilbride Group, the company involved quite some years ago now, who were involved in the original plans that included a new railway station as part of the 750 new houses development package.

None. Kilbride aren’t a housing developer. AIUI their involvement was to try and make money out of the housing developers by doing a multi party deal that included the railway. Thereby making the houses more valuable, which they would take a share of. The deal was done woth Bovis, who built the houses.
 

Xavi

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A two car diesel train which needs two staff to operate and carries at the very maximum about 250 people at one time is a pretty wasteful form of transport. Especially when there isn't enough room on the existing network to offer a roughly half hourly service. It's not something to be encouraged by building more routes for, we've already got enough where hourly two car diesels on 15% of daily seat km occupation are soaking up billions of pounds of subsidy for minimal benefit.
In many cases 2-car trains are inadequate and were only ever built as such because of funding cuts. Many routes using 2-cars require more carriages, including Okehampton when the Interchange station opens. I witnessed a mid-afternoon arrival at Okehampton full and standing earlier this week; I am sure that didn’t feature in any forecasts.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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None. Kilbride aren’t a housing developer. AIUI their involvement was to try and make money out of the housing developers by doing a multi party deal that included the railway. Thereby making the houses more valuable, which they would take a share of. The deal was done woth Bovis, who built the houses.
I should have said "constructed under the area improvement plan of the Kilbride Group" in my posting. I am aware that Bovis Homes were the constructors and the development at "The Tors" has a range of two bedtoom to five bedroom properties, situated on the western edge of Tavistock. My thoughts on the matter would be governed by the car-ownership level of the house owners on "The Tors", with the range of properties there.

One point to bear in mind is that when a sizeable private development is planned for an area, attention needs to be drawn to the availability of schools, medical facilities, etc, to cope wih the influx.
 

yorksrob

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. Especially when there isn't enough room on the existing network to offer a roughly half hourly service. It's not something to be encouraged by building more routes for, we've already got enough where hourly two car diesels on 15% of daily seat km occupation are soaking up billions of pounds of subsidy for minimal benefit.

Is that really the case between Plymouth and St Budeaux Junction though ?

This isn't Borough Market we're talking about here.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

In many cases 2-car trains are inadequate and were only ever built as such because of funding cuts. Many routes using 2-cars require more carriages, including Okehampton when the Interchange station opens. I witnessed a mid-afternoon arrival at Okehampton full and standing earlier this week; I am sure that didn’t feature in any forecasts.

Indeed, most routes I use which have 2 carriage diesels either run with more a lot of the time or require more.
 

daodao

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Is that really the case between Plymouth and St Budeaux Junction though ?

This isn't Borough Market we're talking about here.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



Indeed, most routes I use which have 2 carriage diesels either run with more a lot of the time or require more.
The issue with reopening the line between Bere Alston and Tavistock is there is already an existing "essential" service from Plymouth to Gunnislake. This currently operates with sole track occupation north of St Budeaux, with unsignalled points at Bere Alston operated by the train's crew after the train has stopped at Bere Alston, prior to reversal.
It is the section north of St Budeaux that currently lacks capacity for extra services. Any additional train on the branch line to serve Tavistock will require signalling at Bere Alston, and for a half-hourly service, a passing loop (or loops) would be needed north of St Budeaux with further extra signalling.
This would all add to the capital and running costs of reinstating rail services to Tavistock. It clearly isn't a worthwhile use of limited financial resources to do this, even taking into account potential social and non-financial benefits, so there is no point in undertaking further studies on the proposal for the foreseeable future.
 

yorksrob

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The issue with reopening the line between Bere Alston and Tavistock is there is already an existing "essential" service from Plymouth to Gunnislake. This currently operates with sole track occupation north of St Budeaux, with unsignalled points at Bere Alston operated by the train's crew after the train has stopped at Bere Alston, prior to reversal.
It is the section north of St Budeaux that currently lacks capacity for extra services. Any additional train on the branch line to serve Tavistock will require signalling at Bere Alston, and for a half-hourly service, a passing loop (or loops) would be needed north of St Budeaux with further extra signalling.
This would all add to the capital and running costs of reinstating rail services to Tavistock. It clearly isn't a worthwhile use of limited financial resources to do this, even taking into account potential social and non-financial benefits, so there is no point in undertaking further studies on the proposal for the foreseeable future.

Perhaps the successor to RETB would be a better solution for the branch itself. Then an hourly service splitting at Bere Alston.

There's always a solution if someone's interested in finding it.
 

yoyothehobo

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Perhaps the successor to RETB would be a better solution for the branch itself. Then an hourly service splitting at Bere Alston.

There's always a solution if someone's interested in finding it.
Interested = "There is money available for"
 

martin butler

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Perhaps the successor to RETB would be a better solution for the branch itself. Then an hourly service splitting at Bere Alston.

There's always a solution if someone's interested in finding it.
Another option would be, to reopen the entire missing section, then have the service as 1 ph, to Gunnilake, calling at all stations, and a semi fast, only calling at the major stops, which would be Plymouth, Bere alston, Oakhampton, Crediton Exeter st Davids, Exeter central, Yeovil Salisbury Andover Basingstoke, then Waterloo
 

yoyothehobo

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Until a decision on this aspirational line reopening to Tavistock, made by the Government, all aspirations on this thread can safely be said to be "on hold".

Is realism allowed on Speculative Forum threads on this website?
Nope, no realism. I think its a banning offence.

Though i think its fair to say that if a group are unwilling to fund a feasibility study, then they must have a pretty strong inkling of what the outcome of said feasibility study would be.
 

zwk500

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Perhaps the successor to RETB would be a better solution for the branch itself. Then an hourly service splitting at Bere Alston.

There's always a solution if someone's interested in finding it.
The successor to RETB is likely to be some variant or combination of ETCS L2 and L3. That's quite a long way off the Plymouth area.
 

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