Should the Northern City Line have been built?

[Sad Sprinter]

Taken from the current thread on GTR timetabling. It is a bit of a dead-end. Too far east to be of use to West End passengers, a bit too far north to be in the heart of the City. It seems a bit of an odd line to build considering the Great Northern theoretically had access to two City terminal stations; Moorgate Metropolitan and Broad Street. OK I know Moorgate was tiny, and space taken up by the frankly pointless LCDR service. But surely expanding Moorgate would have been easier than building the Northern City?

I think the best outcomes for the Northern City would have either been to link it with the Waterloo and City and work it jointly between the GNR/LSWR, maybe extending it to Victoria. Or building the Northern Heights as planned and building cross-platform interchange with suburban trains at Finsbury Park. Even better, extending it south from Moorgate to create a City express line for the Northern Line, which would be very welcome today.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Well, terminal stations usually are ‘dead ends’ (Yeah, yeah, I know about Manchester London Road/Piccadilly and so on.)

It’s hardly far from the City because Moorgate is within it! OK it is outside the historical Roman Wall but the area has expanded since then, centuries ago. (The actual Moor Gate was on London Wall [eponymous street] at the junction with Moorgate [street], clearly visible from the station entrances.) Why spend a fortune digging further?

 

[Magdalia]

It seems a bit of an odd line to build considering the Great Northern theoretically had access to two City terminal stations; Moorgate Metropolitan and Broad Street.

The Northern City Line only became part of the Great Northern suburban network at electrification in 1976. The Great Northern suburban services to Moorgate via the widened lines and to Broad Street finished at the same time.

Too far east to be of use to West End passengers, a bit too far north to be in the heart of the City.

The line was for City passengers, not West End passengers. All of the city termini are either on the north bank of the river (Cannon Street and Blackfriars) or at the gates of the City wall:

Fenchurch Street - Aldgate
Liverpool Street/Broad Street - Bishopsgate
Holborn Viaduct/City Thameslink - Ludgate

Barbican used to be called Aldersgate.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

The Northern City Line only became part of the Great Northern suburban network at electrification in 1976. The Great Northern suburban services to Moorgate via the widened lines and to Broad Street finished at the same time.


The line was for City passengers, not West End passengers. All of the city termini are either on the north bank of the river (Cannon Street and Blackfriars) or at the gates of the City wall:

Fenchurch Street - Aldgate
Liverpool Street/Broad Street - Bishopsgate
Holborn Viaduct/City Thameslink - Ludgate

Barbican used to be called Aldersgate.

Yes exactly, given there were already two routes to the City and its somewhat limited use to North Londoners should it have been built? Or even, would it have been better to just complete the Northern Heights?

I’ll rephrase the thread. What IF it hadn’t been built? Would we have been better or worse without it?

 

[Failed Unit]

If you travel on it in the rush hours, the trains are certianly very busy. Not so much off-peak but as London evolves Highbury and Islington and Old Street are also important.

 

[The Pelican]

If anything, there were generally too few mainline gauge tube routes under central london- I've always liked the idea of an LSWR towards South Kensington, and of course a slightly later Waterloo and City line might have taken over the main suburban lines and terminated trains from Guildford. Similarly, the Metropolitan line Finchley-Edgware Road bypass tunnel would have been mainline sized- those trains would obviously not have been able to run along the Bakerloo line, so it's a good question if the bypass tunnel might have been extended further in to London.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Dec 2025 ==

Yes exactly, given there were already two routes to the City and its somewhat limited use to North Londoners should it have been built? Or even, would it have been better to just complete the Northern Heights?

I’ll rephrase the thread. What IF it hadn’t been built? Would we have been better or worse without it?

I think both of the other routes, via the Hotel Curve and Kings Cross Thameslink and via Caledonian road to Broad Street, probably looked like they might be at risk of eventually filling up around the turn of the century.

 

[Magdalia]

given there were already two routes to the City

Both of those routes had limited capacity that had to be shared.

Broad Street also had trains from/to Watford Junction and Richmond.

Moorgate widened lines also had trains from/to Luton.

Both routes also had freight traffic.

Both only had capacity for about 6tph from/to the Great Northern. Furthermore, the trains were not very long, as is still the case on the Hertford loop.

In the period up to the 1960s the City would definitely have been worse without it. Until that time the Northern City Line platforms at Finsbury Park were underground and, in particular, it was the main route off the north end of the Piccadilly Line to/from the City. That ended when construction started for the Victoria Line, and the Northern City Line had to be truncated back to Drayton Park.

 

[vic-rijrode]

Both of those routes had limited capacity that had to be shared.

Broad Street also had trains from/to Watford Junction and Richmond.

...and of course from/to Poplar until WW2 - arguably as busy if not more busy than the lines to Watford, Richmond and the GN.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Always think it's a bit of a strange line. The stations all look like tube stations, which they effectively are, apart from the signage and, when you get to platform level, the trains themselves. I've always felt that it's never quite lived up to its potential. Perhaps it could be extended into a sort of Crossrail 3 perhaps, but that would depend on what's down there and what obstacles might be in the way. Having what is in effect an underground line terminate in central London is a bit of an oddity these days.

 

[Snow1964]

The book lost tube schemes suggests Moorgate was more a temporary terminus. Ideally wanted to get to Bank but roads were too narrow and the vaults of Bank of England meant insufficient space.

Appears to have been plans proposed (but never financed) for bigger station under Finsbury Circus but weren't allowed to build shaft there (roughly where decades later the Elizabeth line station was built, although that was more west-east).

The other idea was a single track loop diverging near Old Street, and rejoining just south of Moorgate. But would have required lots of wayleaves for passing under buildings which was generally avoided before WW1

 

[Helvellyn]

The book lost tube schemes suggests Moorgate was more a temporary terminus. Ideally wanted to get to Bank but roads were too narrow and the vaults of Bank of England meant insufficient space.

The Moorgate to Bank section would have replicated the City & South London, which probably didn’t help matters in terms of space.

 

[Snow1964]

The Moorgate to Bank section would have replicated the City & South London, which probably didn’t help matters in terms of space.

The Moorgate extension of City and South London opened in 1900.
The next section Moorgate -Angel opened in 1901

In August 1902 The Great Northern and City Railway Act received royal accent which covered the extension to Lothbury, some work was actually done in 1904 but lack of finance meant never got very far. The Lothbury extension powers were renewed in 1907, so must have thought enough space existed.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

There was space, although the reference I remember was it was going to be really quite shallow for a “tube” line.

If we could go from scratch. It would have been great right off the bat if the LsWR and GNR worked together to build a joint tube

 

[edwin_m]

I’ll rephrase the thread. What IF it hadn’t been built? Would we have been better or worse without it?

I think both of the other routes, via the Hotel Curve and Kings Cross Thameslink and via Caledonian road to Broad Street, probably looked like they might be at risk of eventually filling up around the turn of the century.

I imagine the these curves must have been part of the reason the GNR decided not to have anything to do with the GN&CR - they had their own route already.

In principle the Thameslink programme of the 2010s might have been implemented using the Hotel and York Road curves instead of the new connection into St Pancras Thameslink. Still funneling into the same double track, but with an extra constraint of a flat junction to the Hotel Curve. But closure of the Moorgate branch would then have removed the link between the GN lines and the city "proper", other than Broad Street which was a long way round.

a bit too far north to be in the heart of the City.

The book lost tube schemes suggests Moorgate was more a temporary terminus. Ideally wanted to get to Bank but roads were too narrow and the vaults of Bank of England meant insufficient space.

Appears to have been plans proposed (but never financed) for bigger station under Finsbury Circus but weren't allowed to build shaft there (roughly where decades later the Elizabeth line station was built, although that was more west-east).

The other idea was a single track loop diverging near Old Street, and rejoining just south of Moorgate. But would have required lots of wayleaves for passing under buildings which was generally avoided before WW1

Work must have started on a short extension from Moorgate to Lothbury - part of the tunneling shield is still there at the end of one of the platform overrun tunnels.

 

[Russel]

If you travel on it in the rush hours, the trains are certianly very busy. Not so much off-peak but as London evolves Highbury and Islington and Old Street are also important.

Off peak, it's certainly very quiet at times, sitting on the platform at Old Street or Essex Road alone is a very strange feeling, the silence is deathening!

 

[bramling]

Yes exactly, given there were already two routes to the City and its somewhat limited use to North Londoners should it have been built? Or even, would it have been better to just complete the Northern Heights?

I’ll rephrase the thread. What IF it hadn’t been built? Would we have been better or worse without it?

Really, no it probably shouldn’t have been built. It’s always felt a bit of a spare part, and at times has felt like it has had a jinx over it - no more apparent than on a certain February day in 1975.

It we didn’t have it, I suspect the GN inner suburban service would look different today, with probably the entire Welwyn and Hertford inner service going to Thameslink, with less of the outer-suburban service. It would also probably have required a more radical reworking of King’s Cross at some point at electrification so as to incorporate a couple more suburban platforms on the lands to the west of platforms 9-11, which in turn could well have meant that the modern concourse couldn’t have been sited where it is (or it might have had to wait for the inners to be put into Thameslink in order to create the free space).

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Really, no it probably shouldn’t have been built. It’s always felt a bit of a spare part, and at times has felt like it has had a jinx over it - no more apparent than on a certain February day in 1975.

It we didn’t have it, I suspect the GN inner suburban service would look different today, with probably the entire Welwyn and Hertford inner service going to Thameslink, with less of the outer-suburban service. It would also probably have required a more radical reworking of King’s Cross at some point at electrification so as to incorporate a couple more suburban platforms on the lands to the west of platforms 9-11, which in turn could well have meant that the modern concourse couldn’t have been sited where it is (or it might have had to wait for the inners to be put into Thameslink in order to create the free space).

I like to think if we didn’t have it Broad Street would still exist. But as you say, Broad Street would probably just have closed a few years later so it could be Thameslink’d.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I think the best outcomes for the Northern City would have either been to link it with the Waterloo and City

That was never going to happen. The Waterloo and City tunnels are too small for GNC trains, and the platforms at Bank are right up agaionst those of the cebtral Line so the line can't be extended. An extension at Moorgate would be almost as difficult, given that the Northern Line is directly underneath.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Dec 2025 ==

The Northern City Line only became part of the Great Northern suburban network at electrification in 1976. The Great Northern suburban services to Moorgate via the widened lines and to Broad Street finished at the same time.

But it was originally intended to be conected to the GNR, and ten electric locomotives were planned, to allow steam-hauled trains to be taken down the hole. One was actually built.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

That was never going to happen. The Waterloo and City tunnels are too small for GNC trains, and the platforms at Bank are right up agaionst those of the cebtral Line so the line can't be extended. An extension at Moorgate would be almost as difficult, given that the Northern Line is directly underneath.

Yes, I'm talking theoretically

 

[Dave W]

I'm a bit baffled by the idea the line is of limited use to North Londoners. Try a morning rush hour service from (eg) Palmers Green or New Southgate - or worse one of the real inner stations like Harringay - and, even post Covid, you'll see it's very useful.

An aberration perhaps - and what might have been (can you imagine the already inflated house prices in Crouch End if it *did* have a tube station of its own...) - but I dispute that it's not useful.

 

[Helvellyn]

More interesting is what would have happened if the Northern Heights underground extensions had been built post-war and thus Moorgate to Finsbury Park wasn't available to hand over to BR in the mid-1970s. A Northern City tube line might have seen the Northen Line itself formally split because there would have been the opportunity for interchange at Camden Town and Old Street (or Moorgate), so you could have operated Edgware-Kennington via Golders Green and Charing Cross as the "Northern Line", High Barnet-Morden via Bank as the "City & South London", and Edgware/Ally Pally-Moorgate via Finsbury Park as the "Northern City" Line.

What would have happened to King's Cross Suburban traffic in such a situation? Possibly try get some into St Pancras via Harringay and Kentish Town, or just keep more suburban platforms at Kings Cross?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

More interesting is what would have happened if the Northern Heights underground extensions had been built post-war and thus Moorgate to Finsbury Park wasn't available to hand over to BR in the mid-1970s. A Northern City tube line might have seen the Northen Line itself formally split because there would have been the opportunity for interchange at Camden Town and Old Street (or Moorgate), so you could have operated Edgware-Kennington via Golders Green and Charing Cross as the "Northern Line", High Barnet-Morden via Bank as the "City & South London", and Edgware/Ally Pally-Moorgate via Finsbury Park as the "Northern City" Line.

What would have happened to King's Cross Suburban traffic in such a situation? Possibly try get some into St Pancras via Harringay and Kentish Town, or just keep more suburban platforms at Kings Cross?

I’ve often wondered this. Would the Hotel Curves have the clearance for OHLE or third rail? If not, you’re looking at either Kings Cross forever, or a Broad Street 1988 closure followed by some kind of a re-engineered connection to Thameslink.

 

[Jaydubya]

Did the GN services get to Broad Street via the tunnel underneath Highbury Fields near Canonbury?

The GN were also behind the GN and Strand part of the Piccadilly line around the same time that the Northern City Line was built

 

[Taunton]

There was something of a standoff between the GNR and the North London over the Broad Street services, started just to give some adequate service to The City which became overloaded in times before neither the Northern Line nor the Piccadilly Line were built. The trains were all supplied by the North London, which continued as LMS trains over the LNER after 1923. They had the worst stock, some of the last 4-wheelers with wooden seats, the old North London tank locos were replaced by LMS Jinty 0-6-0T tanks operating out of the NLR Devons Road shed, nowhere near the route. Come 1939 and the services were very willingly given up. At least when restarted after WW2 the LNER was allowed to run them.

As both the Widened Lines and the Northern City belonged to the Metropolitan, before London Transport took them over, the GN and successors must have felt squeezed out of their City traffic.

 

[norbitonflyer]

As both the Widened Lines and the Northern City belonged to the Metropolitan, before London Transport took them over, the GN and successors must have felt squeezed out of their City traffic.

The NCL wasn't a good fit with the Met, and I would guess that it only took it on to keep it out of the hands of the UERL group - providing, as it did, a faster and less congested link between the GN lines and the City than the Met's own Widened Lines could offer. (The City & South London, not yet part of UERL, had already taken some of that traffic but was slower and much more crowded (this was before the tuinnels were widened to take "Standard" tube stock)

 

[MarlowDonkey]

The GN were also behind the GN and Strand part of the Piccadilly line around the same time that the Northern City Line was built

Isn't that why the GN blocked expansion north beyond Finsbury Park? That expansion plan wasn't started as the Northern Heights project until the LPTB had been formed and took over the LNER's suburban North London branches.