Fishguard to get 2 hourly service from September

[Pacerpilot]

Were you caught up in the disruption today? (Sorry, off topic!)

No I finished long before that. Im not sure what went on. I had a friend ring me to see if I knew anything as they were stuck at Swansea.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I worked through to Fishguard today and had a look out of the droplight whilst passing through Goodwick. The gap between the unit and the former platform certainly appears to be a far larger than I have experienced anywhere else. That was just with my calibrated eyeball though.

Thanks. Were you able to tell if the gap was smaller at the end furthest from the harbour, or is the perspective on my photographs fooling my eyes into thinking the curve of the platform is not the same radius as the that of the track?

 

[Pacerpilot]

the perspective on my photographs fooling my eyes into thinking the curve of the platform is not the same radius as the that of the track?

I think you maybe correct here. Ill have a look again the next time Im down there (in the daytime - next run is a night working)

 

[Greenback]

Has the track been realigned since closure of the station?

 

[anthony263]

Study has been launched at re-opening fishguard & goodwick station, which could happen in september in time for the new extra rail services:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-13703089

 

[merlodlliw]

Study has been launched at re-opening fishguard & goodwick station, which could happen in september in time for the new extra rail services:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-13703089

I am not in any way knocking this new "Open Access" service, using ordinary rail stock East to West, however I am astounded that someone in the "WAG Rail Division" in Cardiff did not advise the then Minister Ieuan Wyn Jones about the state of Fishguard station, but having seen some of the recent antics of the rail division,perhaps I should not be surprised.

This is a complete opposite to the Cambrian & Howl, who have the infrastructure costing £ millions , but lack trains to shift passengers,the school children who pushed for the train would have spotted this problem of no station at Fishguard,if they were consulted as they seem the experts.



Bob

 

[Squaddie]

I am astounded that someone in the "WAG Rail Division" in Cardiff did not advise the then Minister Ieuan Wyn Jones about the state of Fishguard station, but having seen some of the recent antics of the rail division,perhaps I should not be surprised.

Do you have any evidence that the minister was not advised of the condition of Fishguard & Goodwick station when the decision was taken to increase the frequency of services to Fishguard Harbour?

 

[anthony263]

I think someone shoould at the WAG should see if they could possibly get some money to purchase a few class 172's to provide extra capacity and some slack in the ATW fleet.

then again they do still have a few mk2 carriages lying about if the WAG wanted extra services to fishguard just use some of them and the stock from WAG1 to run the daytime boat train

 

[Rhydgaled]

then again they do still have a few mk2 carriages lying about if the WAG wanted extra services to fishguard just use some of them and the stock from WAG1 to run the daytime boat train

If they could solve the reversals/run-round problem I still wouldn't suggest they use the LHCS on the Fishguard, except maybe the daytime boat train. Having a wopping great loco with only two coaches would be silly, and I doubt Fishguard will be able to completly fill 2 coaches. Therefore I'd use the LHCS elsewhere, somewhere 3 or 4 coaches would be helpful, to cascade 2-car 175s or 158s to run the Fishguards. I think if you stop in the right place, the gap between the train and platform at Goodwick station might just be small enough at the door farthest from FGH, perhaps the minister thought this as well.

 

[merlodlliw]

Do you have any evidence that the minister was not advised of the condition of Fishguard & Goodwick station when the decision was taken to increase the frequency of services to Fishguard Harbour?

According to Pembroke CC, he was not, he only wanted the service to the harbour, Fishguard & Goodwick Stn is an afterthought by the CC & others & this should have been part of the "Open Access" deal, but the funding pot was not capitol spend, so no WAG money for station upgrades, only an O A train.

Bob

 

[anthony263]

hopefully they will be able to raise the money for a tempory platform to be constructed at the station which should allow more people to use the train service.

 

[tbtc]

I think someone shoould at the WAG should see if they could possibly get some money to purchase a few class 172's to provide extra capacity and some slack in the ATW fleet

Didn't they recently get back the five 150s on loan at FGW (when FGW got ex LO stock)?

 

[anthony263]

Didn't they recently get back the five 150s on loan at FGW (when FGW got ex LO stock)?

Yes
, but they like SWT they still hire out at least 2 class 150's to FGW daily. These are found on the Great Malvern - Gloucester-Bristol - Weymouth route although i have seen 1 on the Bristol PArkway - Weston super Mare.

They normally are attached to the ATW empty stock working from Canton - Gloucester where they then work the Gloucester - Bristol route. They are then attached to the rear of the 20:23 Portsmouth Hbr - Cardiff service at Bristol TM

 

[merlodlliw]

hopefully they will be able to raise the money for a tempory platform to be constructed at the station which should allow more people to use the train service.

I dont know who will fund it & it will have to come up to Net Rail specs, thats not ever going to be easy. Pembroke like all Councils are cash strapped,



Bob

 

[Squaddie]

According to Pembroke CC, he was not, he only wanted the service to the harbour, Fishguard & Goodwick Stn is an afterthought by the CC & others & this should have been part of the "Open Access" deal, but the funding pot was not capitol spend, so no WAG money for station upgrades, only an O A train.

I still don't quite understand your point.

If the minister only wanted the service to the harbour then why would the state of Fishguard & Goodwick matter, and why would he need to be briefed on it? Especially if it was, as you say, an "afterthought"?

I think you're in danger of letting your obvious dislike of the Welsh Government and everything it does colour every post you make. Any attempt to improve Wales' rail services should be welcomed, even if you can't have everything you want straight away.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I still don't quite understand your point.

If the minister only wanted the service to the harbour then why would the state of Fishguard & Goodwick matter, and why would he need to be briefed on it? Especially if it was, as you say, an "afterthought"?

I think you're in danger of letting your obvious dislike of the Welsh Government and everything it does colour every post you make. Any attempt to improve Wales' rail services should be welcomed, even if you can't have everything you want straight away.

The point is Fishguard Harbour station is in the Harbour complex and not near the town, whilst the old Goodwick station is closer to the town and more accessible. The car parking arrangements are not set up for daily users in the harbour there pitched at leaving it a few days whilst you go to Ireland mkt. Anyone with local knowledge like North Pembroke Transport Forum or Pembrokeshire Rail Travelers Association could have told you that at the outset and in their campaigning to get more services to this part of the world have pointed this out for donkey years.

 

[Squaddie]

The point is Fishguard Harbour station is in the Harbour complex and not near the town, whilst the old Goodwick station is closer to the town and more accessible. The car parking arrangements are not set up for daily users in the harbour there pitched at leaving it a few days whilst you go to Ireland mkt. Anyone with local knowledge like North Pembroke Transport Forum or Pembrokeshire Rail Travelers Association could have told you that at the outset and in their campaigning to get more services to this part of the world have pointed this out for donkey years.

I know precisely where Fishguard and Goodwick station is; I don't need to be told.

I was questioning merlodlliw's assertion that "[no-one] in the "WAG Rail Division" in Cardiff [advised] the then Minister Ieuan Wyn Jones about the state of Fishguard station". I still don't understand the relevance of this statement. Did the minister think he was approving a new service to a refurbished Fishguard and Goodwick station, or was he aware that the service would run to Fishguard Harbour? As merlodlliw seems to have inside knowledge of the discussions that take place in Cardiff Bay I'd be interested to hear the full story.

 

[merlodlliw]

I still don't quite understand your point.

If the minister only wanted the service to the harbour then why would the state of Fishguard & Goodwick matter, and why would he need to be briefed on it? Especially if it was, as you say, an "afterthought"?

I think you're in danger of letting your obvious dislike of the Welsh Government and everything it does colour every post you make. Any attempt to improve Wales' rail services should be welcomed, even if you can't have everything you want straight away.

I have no dislike of WAG, never ever said that, but I have every right to question decisions on how public money is spent, The rail division in WAG
or certain individuals, should have known Fishguard & Goodwick would have come up, however they failed to brief the Minister on its state.
We know they are separate stations,even though shut,Ministers are not so rail savvy as some of us on RF, about various stations around Fishguard.
The Minister only referred to one station at Fishguard, the one that is open, that is why the funding was only for a Open Access DMU, not station renewal

Bob

 

[Gareth Marston]

I know precisely where Fishguard and Goodwick station is; I don't need to be told.

I was questioning merlodlliw's assertion that "[no-one] in the "WAG Rail Division" in Cardiff [advised] the then Minister Ieuan Wyn Jones about the state of Fishguard station". I still don't understand the relevance of this statement. Did the minister think he was approving a new service to a refurbished Fishguard and Goodwick station, or was he aware that the service would run to Fishguard Harbour? As merlodlliw seems to have inside knowledge of the discussions that take place in Cardiff Bay I'd be interested to hear the full story.

Sources in ATW suggest it "came out the blue" when the announcement was made at the end of March. Others point to the large number of marginals in west wales Plaid were contesting the allegation being it was more of a political announcement than a fully thought out practical one addressing transport needs in North Pembrokeshire. I doubt we will ever no the truth of the matter and can only speculate - what we can say for definite that there seems to be moves to address getting a station at Goodwick.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Supposedly an extra unit is required to run these Fishguard services. However, here's the best guess I've managed to come up with (with help from posters on the First Great Western Coffee Shop fourm) for the diagrams, which seem to suggest to me that no extra units are required at all.

Diagram 1 - Class 175

Current Work
05:43 Carmarthen - Pembroke Dock
07:09 Pembroke Dock - Manchester (dep. Carmarthen 08:30, arr. Swansea 09:23, dep. 09:55)​

From September
05:50 Carmarthen - Fishguard
06:53 Fishguard - Clarbeston Road
07:33 Clarbeston Road - Fishguard
08:06 Fishguard - Manchester (dep. Carmarthen 09:00, Swansea 09:55)​

Diagram 2 - Sprinter

Current Work
06:42 Cardiff Central - Carmarthen (coupled to another unit, which continues to Pembroke Dock)
09:00 Carmarthen - Swansea
10:05 Swansea - Pembroke Dock (dep. Carmarthen at 10:56)
Continues on Pembroke Dock work
​

From September
06:42 Cardiff Central - Carmarthen (coupled to another unit, which continues to Pembroke Dock)
08:50 Carmarthen - Fishguard
09:55 Fishguard - Carmarthen
10:56 Carmarthen - Pembroke Dock (picking up the present diagram)
Continues on Pembroke Dock work
​

Diagram 3 - Sprinter

Current Work
09:00 Shrewsbury - Llandrindod Wells - Swansea - Cardiff Central
15:14 Cardiff Central - Swansea (Swanline)
17:10 Swansea - Cardiff Central (Swanline)
Retire to Canton Depot
​

From September
09:00 Shrewsbury - Llandrindod Wells - Swansea - Cardiff Central
15:30 Cardiff Central - Fishguard (Swanline) (17:10 Swansea - Cardiff Central Swanline expected to be covered by extending WAG Express 2 to start from Swansea)
18:49 Fishguard - Whitland
19:38 Whitland - Fishguard
20:16 Fishguard - Carmarthen
​

I think these diagrams leave just two questions unanswered:

1. Does having a Sprinter stabled at Carmarthen which presently wouldn't be mean an extra unit is required the next morning for peak strengthening of a Valleys diagram?
2. What happens to the 1st Pembroke, which lost the Manchester train

Well, the Sprinter diagram that now ends it's day in Carmarthen has nowhere to go in the morning other than that 1st Pembroke service, so that's all the services running without extra units. That just leaves the question of whether morning peak strengthening of a Valleys service would be affected by leaving an extra unit at Carmarthen overnight rather than in Canton. Either way, can anyone see any mistakes I've made here, or would that work? If it does work, that Sprinter is left at Swansea at 09:23 after running the 1st Pembroke service. It could easily run an extra Swanline service to Canton, get refueled and then run fast back to Fishguard and plug the 5hr gap in the proposed timetable.

 

[merlodlliw]

But the funding is for a open access service,not re jigged franchise services,the subsidy is for a separate DMU to be provided, Like WAG2 175.
Gareth is correct, The Minister sprung it on ATW according to my contacts in ATW,

Bob

 

[Rhydgaled]

But the funding is for a open access service,not re jigged franchise services,the subsidy is for a separate DMU to be provided, Like WAG2 175.
Gareth is correct, The Minister sprung it on ATW according to my contacts in ATW,

Bob

That may be true, but the planned timetable seems to include re-jigging of franchise services (including the loss of the Swansea - Carmarthen section of the 10:05 Swansea - Pembroke Dock) and I can't find anywhere an extra DMU is required. The extra Fishguard services seem to be covered by three different diagrams, there certainly doesn't seem to be a separate DMU provided for the service.

 

[Gareth Marston]

That may be true, but the planned timetable seems to include re-jigging of franchise services (including the loss of the Swansea - Carmarthen section of the 10:05 Swansea - Pembroke Dock) and I can't find anywhere an extra DMU is required. The extra Fishguard services seem to be covered by three different diagrams, there certainly doesn't seem to be a separate DMU provided for the service.

Is the sound I hear from Penarth House- Keerching??? That will be £X for an extra unit, extra crew etc etc Mr WG. There's a strong rumor that ATW quoted everything to WG regarding the Cambrian Hourly as "extras" whereas local sources insist rejigging staff diagrams and running more 2 car sets west of Salop than 4 cars at moment may cover it predominantly from existing resources.

 

[merlodlliw]

That may be true, but the planned timetable seems to include re-jigging of franchise services (including the loss of the Swansea - Carmarthen section of the 10:05 Swansea - Pembroke Dock) and I can't find anywhere an extra DMU is required. The extra Fishguard services seem to be covered by three different diagrams, there certainly doesn't seem to be a separate DMU provided for the service.

Its all very mish mashed, my understanding is the money from WAG for the West Wales extra services was for an open access DMU to run these services.
I am also aware ATW dont have spare stock, so I am wondering what is going on now,if the franchise services are in fact being altered, are ATW been allowed to fudge the money from open access into franchise income.
The rules of open access dont allow one penny of of any franchise stock investment to be used on O A servives, The two WAGs 1&2 are OA, in fact the 175 is hired in for OA from ATW itself, but both run to a OA timetable & can be removed from the timetable without consultation.

The Cambrian extra services,( unlike WAG1&2 & the supposed West Wales DMU )
have been costed as extra franchise subsidy, hence would not run to an OA timetable with life expiry.

I welcome extra services in West Wales , but the wheeling & dealing will be interesting as public money and its strict rules have to be, or are supposed to be followed.

Bob

 

[Greenback]

The announcement took people by surprise, and doesn't seem to have been thought through fully. I would welcome more transparency from the WAG about the funding and stock aspects of the deal.

 

[anthony263]

Sorry for bringing this thread back up, with a lot of talk on the WAG express thread being about the Fishguard service, i thought it would be better to use this thread.

With regards to this anyone got any idea what is going to happen with the 17:10 Swansea - Cardiff service? considering the 15:14 is aparantly being retimed to leave cardiff at 15:30 and run through to Fishguard am i right in guessing that this could be formed by 2 units with one being dettached at Swansea to form the 17:10 departure?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Sorry for bringing this thread back up, with a lot of talk on the WAG express thread being about the Fishguard service, i thought it would be better to use this thread.

With regards to this anyone got any idea what is going to happen with the 17:10 Swansea - Cardiff service? considering the 15:14 is aparantly being retimed to leave cardiff at 15:30 and run through to Fishguard am i right in guessing that this could be formed by 2 units with one being dettached at Swansea to form the 17:10 departure?

I wonder if the Fishguard related stuff from the WAG express topic could be moved into this topic? The discussion was prompted by the Dec 2011 draft timetable showing WAG 2 still with a 175, but the draft timetable being available also meant we could get our first look at what could be the times for the new Fishguard trains.

As for the 15:30 off Cardiff being two units, it is a possibility. However the idea that surfaced when somebody asked that question before was that WAG 2 could potentially start from Swansea and take up the 17:10 Swanline. Both are possibilties, I wonder if the draft 2011 timetable could help answer that?

 

[merlodlliw]

Thanks for transferring the item to this thread, In respect to WAG2 you mention , last year this train was indeed shown as a stopper on the down consultative timetable Swansea to Cardiff, but quickly removed, so someone must have thought about it.

The situation with WAG2 is this, it is run open access Cardiff/Holyhead only,& ATW on behalf of WAG only requested a path Cardiff/Holyhead from the ORR for a 175. There is no change on the down Dec timetable. However leaving this 175 presumably ticking over in Cardiff for six hours is a waste of capacity & wrong use of franchise stock in my opinion when only last week a friend of mine complained of the chronic overcrowding of a Manchester to Carmarthen DMU two coach, which left Cardiff around 1330 with standing room only

So back to Fishguard, no doubt the locals are a bit miffed about the five hour gap. No doubt lack of stock forces this, as the Minister said

"I am pleased to be able to deliver these rail improvements for the people of South West Wales.

"These additional services will play a vital role in improving links to the region that will in turn provide a boost to the area both in terms of tourism and the economy.

" We will now work closely with Arriva Trains Wales to develop a timetable that meets the needs of the local community." ends

Five hour gap comes to mind again.


Bob

 

[Rhydgaled]

So back to Fishguard, no doubt the locals are a bit miffed about the five hour gap. No doubt lack of stock forces this.

I refer you to my post further up the page of the estimated diagrams I figured out with help from disscussions on the First Great Western Coffee Shop fourm. Fourm disscussions have pointed out that, since the 3rd diagram ends at Carmarthen instead of Cardiff another Sprinter (I guess one of the two 150s soon to be returned from FGW as LM gets 172s) is required to take one of the diagrams that start at Cardiff the next day. I'm guessing this sprinter that becomes stabled at Carmarthen therefore takes the morning Pembroke - Manchester as far as Swansea (with Fishguard getting that through Manchester instead).

I therefore surmise:

Diagram 4 - Sprinter

New Diagram From September
05:43 Carmarthen - Pembroke Dock
07:09 Pembroke Dock - Swansea (arrive 09:23)
Then nothing, although if the idle 175 from WAG2 isn't used I guess that this unit will be needed for:
17:10 Swansea - Cardiff Central (Swanline)
Retire to Canton Depot
​

That means the unit is idle at Swansea from 09:23 to 17:10. Now, I've no idea if staffing levels / staffing costs will allow it but what I'd like to see would be somthing like this:

Diagram 4 - Sprinter

New Diagram From September
05:43 Carmarthen - Pembroke Dock
07:09 Pembroke Dock - Swansea (arrive 09:23)
10:11 Swansea - Cardiff (Swanline)
(Expect unit needs to go into Canton for re-fueling about now)
13:30 Cardiff - Fishguard (fast, via Swansea District Line - arrive 15:50 to plug 5hr gap)
16:00 Fishguard - Cardiff (incorporating Swanline, but delayed Swansea departure from 17:10 to 17:45, if anyone can think of a better option to plug the please make it known).
​

 

[Greenback]

Is there going to be a 10005 from Swansea to Pembroke Dock in the new timetable?