• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Most justified cuts? (Beeching or otherwise)

Status
Not open for further replies.

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,355
Location
Yorks
It's hard to see Hythe (Kent) being much use to passengers, given its distance from much of the town (closed 52 I think).

Also, I don't think the Meon Valley ever carried many passengers - would have made a great steam railway though.

They probably had a point with East Grinstead to Lewes, which went in the mid 1950's. These two didn't really pass through anywhere significant and the towns they linked were linked by alternative routes. The Bluebell of course, did become a great steam railway.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

RT4038

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2014
Messages
5,456
It's hard to see Hythe (Kent) being much use to passengers, given its distance from much of the town (closed 52 I think).

Also, I don't think the Meon Valley ever carried many passengers - would have made a great steam railway though.

They probably had a point with East Grinstead to Lewes, which went in the mid 1950's. These two didn't really pass through anywhere significant and the towns they linked were linked by alternative routes. The Bluebell of course, did become a great steam railway.
Cheltenham-Kingham or Cheltenham-Cirencester would have made good steam railways too! (better than the Gloucestershire & Warwickshire, but that closed much later so was more intact to be rebuilt, so to speak!)
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,355
Location
Yorks
Cheltenham-Kingham or Cheltenham-Cirencester would have made good steam railways too! (better than the Gloucestershire & Warwickshire, but that closed much later so was more intact to be rebuilt, so to speak!)

Indeed. I think I'd have kept the shuttle to Cirencester from the mainline though (maybe with a bubble car).
 

Chester1

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
4,440
Closure of Birkenhead Woodside. The building of the loop and link lines in Liverpool city centre was a huge improvement and Birkenhead to Chester did not need any long distance services. It is a good example of a rationalisation that worked well, enabling the creation of a proper metro service. The reduction of stations in Manchester and Salford city centres from eight to five are classic examples of pruning an inefficient network designed by competing companies. While more city centre capacity is now necessary, only people driven by nostalgia want it in the form of another terminal and more fragmentation.
 

fandroid

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2014
Messages
2,563
Location
Hampshire
Basingstoke and Alton Light Railway? Apparently a sneaky effort by the LSWR in the early 1900s to keep GWR from expanding south out of Basingstoke (by extending the Hants part of the original Berks and Hants). Rails removed to France in WW1. Forced to reinstate them in the 1920s. Eventually closed in the 1930s. Fairly pointless as post WW1 bus services were both faster and better served the local populations.
 

D6130

Established Member
Joined
12 Jan 2021
Messages
9,073
Location
West Yorkshire/Tuscany
Basingstoke and Alton Light Railway? Apparently a sneaky effort by the LSWR in the early 1900s to keep GWR from expanding south out of Basingstoke (by extending the Hants part of the original Berks and Hants). Rails removed to France in WW1. Forced to reinstate them in the 1920s. Eventually closed in the 1930s. Fairly pointless as post WW1 bus services were both faster and better served the local populations.
....but useful as a filming location for "Oh Mr Porter" and "The Wrecker" though! ;)
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,355
Location
Yorks
Closure of Birkenhead Woodside. The building of the loop and link lines in Liverpool city centre was a huge improvement and Birkenhead to Chester did not need any long distance services. It is a good example of a rationalisation that worked well, enabling the creation of a proper metro service. The reduction of stations in Manchester and Salford city centres from eight to five are classic examples of pruning an inefficient network designed by competing companies. While more city centre capacity is now necessary, only people driven by nostalgia want it in the form of another terminal and more fragmentation.

Manchester Central is an interesting one. I very much think the Midland network into Manchester should have been retained. I don't know how easy it would have been to integrate it into today's network without the terminal.
 

Howardh

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2011
Messages
9,786
Respectfully, I can never understand this line of argument, that comes up here all the time. It seems you are saying that BR should have closed the railway but kept the land. Why would they do that? They wouldn’t have closed the railway if they thought they would need to reopen it. When the secondary school near me was demolished and rebuilt elsewhere, the land it previously occupied was sold for housing.
But if you build houses on a former rail line, then that increases the population, filling the roads and makes a case to have a rail link...!!! I'm absolutely in the camp of the old track beds should (mostly) have been kept, the expense was running the trains, the unused track beds could have been busways, roads (capable of being returned to rail should the need arise) or just walk/cycleways.

I'm convinced if housing and industry hadn't been built over the old Bolton - Bury rail line, it would have been re-instated by now as (if not for trains) a bus/tram way.

But the old Moor Lane (Bolton) to Manchester was a duplicate of Trinity St to Manchester, so justifiably went - however those in Farnworth/Highfield lost a route which was covered by buses fast enough, until the expansion of Manchester made bus travel long and slow.
 
Last edited:

Howardh

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2011
Messages
9,786
Presumably you mean Clifton and Ardwick? ;)
Yes! But I've deleted that as it doesn't fit the thread!! But if we had another Beeching then I'm sure both would go, and probably with some justification?
 

jadmor

Member
Joined
26 Nov 2013
Messages
156
I think that the thread was intended to be a look back, rather than forwards, but I would like to speculate a little (if the moderators will permit) on a possible future closure that might be forced on the Network; the Tay Bridge.
I Understand that the bridge is currently treated as a single line section, and the route through Fife is notoriously slow. I wonder if it might be time to think about routing mainline traffic via Dundee and Perth, then on to a re-doubled line to Ladybank (the old main line). This would tie in with improvement works at Perth, and help make a stronger case for electrification to Dundee. Leuchars would remain as the railhead for St Andrews.
 

MatthewHutton

Member
Joined
17 Aug 2024
Messages
1,084
Location
Oxford
Manchester Central is an interesting one. I very much think the Midland network into Manchester should have been retained. I don't know how easy it would have been to integrate it into today's network without the terminal.
Given how ridiculously busy Manchester Piccadilly is having another station might well have been useful.
 

TheGrew

Member
Joined
31 Jul 2012
Messages
514
I think some of the lines of the Isle of Wight were justified. Though I think the Ryde-Newport and Cowes-Newport should arguably have been retained.
 

Howardh

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2011
Messages
9,786
Given how ridiculously busy Manchester Piccadilly is having another station might well have been useful.
It would be, like Central, on the outskirts of the city centre so getting from one to the other would be problematic, just like today! London linked them all up with the Underground, no such niceties up here; but if Central still existed, I'm not sure how that would depopulate Piccadilly, although it could lighten the load for Oxford Road and Deansgate.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
18,057
Location
Reston City Centre
IMO the vast majority were justified

Even after a generation of rising national numbers there are still a number of existing stations/lines that just don't look viable in 2025 - and if they aren't doing well after around three decades of general growth, I very much doubt most lines still closed would be bringing in many passengers

Of the longer distance routes rightly closed, I'd suggest the Dumfries - Stranraer line, the Port Road. Lots of empty countryside. No big cities at either end. No doubt of vital national importance a hundred years ago but the Irish market mainly moved to air decades ago. It's not a realistic diversionary route. There are no large intermediate settlements. Whilst a beautiful and untapped bit of Scotland, there's not the tourist market that helps Highland branches. Not even, to the best of my knowledge, any preservation moment on the line. Being over fifty miles long, it'd be incredibly expensive to reopen

Ignoring the conspiracy theories about Marples/ Beeching and their methodology (which seems primitive in hindsight, but was probably quite appropriate given the record keeping/databases available in the sixties), the suggestions about BR indefinitely retaining the land (which would have reduced their revenue/ increased their ongoing costs through the additional maintenance bills/ no True Believer enthusiast would ever accept selling any of it off even fifty years later) and the reforming ideas (which would have been stymied by the Unions/ only really appropriate on a token number of marginal cases), that leaves us with three categories of line:

1. The ones designed for a specific freight use that had little realistic future once that dwindled (e.g. lines to collieries/ quarrys)

2. The ones close to retained lines, where no large settlement lost it's trains (the GCR being an obvious high profile example, but there were many routes with competition, given the speculative Victorians - did we really need Woodhead AND Hope Valley AND Millers Dale?). Sometimes links were lost (e.g. Rugby to much of the East Midlands) but all of the bigger places kept some train service

3. The ones where towns lost their entire service

The third category is the only one I'd focus on here, if I wanted to build consensus for any Beeching errors

Complaining about the methodology seems pointless (nowadays any Forum member has significantly more passenger data information/ statistics/ flows at their fingertips than Beeching could dream of at the time)

This was in an era when cities like Glasgow/ Newcastle/ Leeds were choosing to turn inner city land into urban motorways, that was the way that the wind was blowing

It was the same overseas too (Beeching's cuts look relatively unremarkable when you see equivalents abroad)

The rationalisation into fewer bigger city centre stations in places like Glasgow/ Manchester seems a positive rather than a negative IMHO

As a thought experiment, if you think BR should have retained and maintained all closed lines for a bit longer 'just in case' then when would you have sanctioned flogging off the track bed of e.g. the Port Road? The line passes through very little on the long schlep from Dumfries to Stranraer, low cost flights have killed of most of the Irish ferry market and even if Ryanair somehow went bust there are no ferries from Stranraer nowadays anyway. Even Stranraer's link to Ayr/ Glasgow only gets enough passengers to fill a single 153 a day.

Would you have retained the Port Road route for ten years after passenger services closed? Twenty five? Fifty? What was the formula that they should have used? Would it have been acceptable for *any* buildings to encroach? For the government to use this government owned land to build a road on sections of? Or would taxpayers have to fund the maintenance of this untouched land forever?

That's my problem with this line of argument. It sounds nice at first glance (Keep the land just in case. No rush. Properly assess things. You never know when it might come in useful). But until what date?

Because otherwise it sounds suspiciously like "we should keep the land forever", just couched in the language of apparent moderation

(argue by all means, but try to be a bit more specific than words like "useful" which appears to be a wooly way of saying "nice to have" - there's always opportunity cost to these things)
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
8,262
One factor rarely mentioned about the Marples / Beeching closures failed to stop British Rail(ways) losing money. Indeed, passenger numbers probably declined more than expected, because instead of using replacement bus services to reach railheads, many people chose to do the full journey by car - or not travel at all.
Passenger numbers DID eventually increase again though, indeed massively.

There was a time lag between the negative impact of the closures, and the positive improvements made in the 60s, 70s and 80s like electrification and the HSTs. Speed up the trunk routes, and driving to rail heads becomes attractive.

Could we have had both - the improvements AND keeping all the branch lines open? I don't think so.
 

martin butler

Member
Joined
9 Oct 2018
Messages
874
I think some of the lines of the Isle of Wight were justified. Though I think the Ryde-Newport and Cowes-Newport should arguably have been retained.
The problem though is that out of season, the lines were very scarcely used, . but for 6 weeks every year, packed out, Closure was intended, of all the lines, but of course pesky holiday makers kept using the pier and railway, plus busses would then have never coped with the numbers, many of the lines closed in the 1950's long before Beeching

Down here in Sussex, many of the routes closed, Hailsham especially, would i think now be thriving, if they had remained open,
In Devon and Cornwall, again a great problem was the very low out of season usage, a single bubble car would have been enough from say Bude to Exeter, but in peak season, i don't think you could have found enough coaches, but were the branches ever given a chance? the former southern route was always an unwelcome interloper to some senior GW management, but locally crews learnt both routes, so clearly local management might have seen the usefulness of a secondary route,
 

Oxfordblues

Member
Joined
22 Dec 2013
Messages
1,127
Imagine it's 1964 and you are in Wigan town centre needing to get to Manchester but you don't have a timetable. You could try: Central for a train to Manchester Central; Wallgate for a service to Manchester Victoria via either Bolton or Atherton; or North-Western for a train to Manchester Exchange via Leigh or Golborne. Five potenial routes. I'd be tempted to hop on a Lancashire United bus to save all the hassle!
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
19,352
Location
Yorkshire
That's my problem with this line of argument. It sounds nice at first glance (Keep the land just in case. No rush. Properly assess things. You never know when it might come in useful). But until what date?

Because otherwise it sounds suspiciously like "we should keep the land forever", just couched in the language of apparent moderation

(argue by all means, but try to be a bit more specific than words like "useful" which appears to be a wooly way of saying "nice to have" - there's always opportunity cost to these things)
You make a good point here, there's little point in retaining the land a closed line was on "just in case" if there's very little likelihood of the railway ever being needed again. Particularly if that route includes any significant structures that have to be maintained such as tunnels and viaducts. My favourite example of a route that closed (pre-Beeching, for the record) but would do decent numbers now is the Holmfirth branch. You'd have needed a crystal ball to see the growth of the town as a prosperous upper-middle-class commuter hub, but had there been a coal mine on the line as there was for nearby Clayton West, the line would probably have been retained at least for freight. Perhaps for long enough that sentiments would have changed in favour of reopening. Unfortunately as it closed, there was little point in maintaining the substantial viaduct at Mytholmbridge and this was demolished at some point in the following years. Even with this loss realistically ending any hope of reinstatement, the rest of the line wasn't built on until the 1990s.

Possibly for another thread, but I can only think of one reopened line which required the replacement of a significant multi-span bridge, that being the Borders railway.
 

RT4038

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2014
Messages
5,456
This will end well.
Maybe we could have a thread on the Roman road network in this country, its fortunes, the abandonments , the downgradings, the success stories etc ? What 'they' should have done back in the year 504 or whenever.
 

Gloster

Veteran Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
12,996
Location
Up the creek
I think some of the lines of the Isle of Wight were justified. Though I think the Ryde-Newport and Cowes-Newport should arguably have been retained.

The problem was that at both Newport and Ryde the station was not very convenient for the town centre, but you had buses that served the centres better. At Cowes the station was better placed, but didn’t serve much of the residential areas, which the buses could. Nor was the station at Cowes very convenient for the pontoons: it wasn’t far, but it wasn’t just off the ferry and on to a train. Buses had all the advantages for these two routes except for mainland-Newport through Ryde.
 

brad465

Veteran Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
11,479
Location
Taunton or Kent
Gravesend West, albeit the superb alternatives took some time to materialise in the form of Ebbsfleet doing the work of Southfleet, and Gravesend now having a HS1 service. While not lifted, one wonders how valuable the Fawkham Jct link that exists over much of this old route turned out to be, given extensive earthworks and infrastructure for something that only saw use for four years, with St Pancras long on the cards?
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,355
Location
Yorks
Given how ridiculously busy Manchester Piccadilly is having another station might well have been useful.

It would be, like Central, on the outskirts of the city centre so getting from one to the other would be problematic, just like today! London linked them all up with the Underground, no such niceties up here; but if Central still existed, I'm not sure how that would depopulate Piccadilly, although it could lighten the load for Oxford Road and Deansgate.

Yes, it wouldn't be ideal. I could imagine Deansgate becoming an interchange between the two groups of railways, perhaps with a travelator to Central !

Imagine it's 1964 and you are in Wigan town centre needing to get to Manchester but you don't have a timetable. You could try: Central for a train to Manchester Central; Wallgate for a service to Manchester Victoria via either Bolton or Atherton; or North-Western for a train to Manchester Exchange via Leigh or Golborne. Five potenial routes. I'd be tempted to hop on a Lancashire United bus to save all the hassle!

Central was probably superfluous. However, even today you have a wide range of routes (the Leigh loop is missed for Leigh's sake).

Maybe we could have a thread on the Roman road network in this country, its fortunes, the abandonments , the downgradings, the success stories etc ? What 'they' should have done back in the year 504 or whenever.

Most of those are still around in one form or another, so perhaps they're the ideal example, having kept going for a couple of thousand years through war and upheaval !

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Gravesend West, albeit the superb alternatives took some time to materialise

The EPB's that served Central were being built from 1951, so two years before closure :)
 

Dr Hoo

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2015
Messages
5,660
Location
Hope Valley
Manchester Central is an interesting one. I very much think the Midland network into Manchester should have been retained. I don't know how easy it would have been to integrate it into today's network without the terminal.
For all practical intents and purposes the Midland didn't have a network in Manchester. Odd little bits like Ancoats (Goods) hardly count. There was only joint running with the CLC and with (just) the Great Central.

There were essentially three passenger lines - the CLC towards Warrington (easily diverted to Oxford Road); the GC line via Romiley, that continues to give direct access to Piccadilly; and the Withington Line via Stockport Tiviot Dale that had minimal advantages.

Certainly not enough to justify a huge terminus like Central.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,355
Location
Yorks
For all practical intents and purposes the Midland didn't have a network in Manchester. Odd little bits like Ancoats (Goods) hardly count. There was only joint running with the CLC and with (just) the Great Central.

There were essentially three passenger lines - the CLC towards Warrington (easily diverted to Oxford Road); the GC line via Romiley, that continues to give direct access to Piccadilly; and the Withington Line via Stockport Tiviot Dale that had minimal advantages.

Certainly not enough to justify a huge terminus like Central.

I was thinking primarily of the main lines toward Sheffield and Derby via Cheadle Heath. Obviously the curve at Hazel Grove alleviates this, but there is limited capacity along the routes to Piccadilly.
 

Chester1

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
4,440
Manchester Central is an interesting one. I very much think the Midland network into Manchester should have been retained. I don't know how easy it would have been to integrate it into today's network without the terminal.

Given how ridiculously busy Manchester Piccadilly is having another station might well have been useful.

It would be, like Central, on the outskirts of the city centre so getting from one to the other would be problematic, just like today! London linked them all up with the Underground, no such niceties up here; but if Central still existed, I'm not sure how that would depopulate Piccadilly, although it could lighten the load for Oxford Road and Deansgate.

I think if Midland had stayed open then everything would have been diverted into Oxford Road and Piccadilly, with the Hazel Grove Chord being built two decades earlier to divert express services. Manchester Central is best as a convention centre. It is very impressive for it is role and the city didnt need a terminal for a handful of services.

A similar example would be Deeside to Mickle Trafford. I personally wouldn't have closed it to passengers in the 60s and its a real shame it was closed after freight stopped in the late 90s. However, a west-south chord into Chester General would have enabled the closure of the section past Hoole to Mickle Trafford, Northgate Station and freed up the land around the Northgate triangular junction. The line would have better finances with connections at Chester General, no Northgate station and shorter track to maintain.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
20,387
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
You make a good point here, there's little point in retaining the land a closed line was on "just in case" if there's very little likelihood of the railway ever being needed again. Particularly if that route includes any significant structures that have to be maintained such as tunnels and viaducts. My favourite example of a route that closed (pre-Beeching, for the record) but would do decent numbers now is the Holmfirth branch. You'd have needed a crystal ball to see the growth of the town as a prosperous upper-middle-class commuter hub, but had there been a coal mine on the line as there was for nearby Clayton West, the line would probably have been retained at least for freight. Perhaps for long enough that sentiments would have changed in favour of reopening. Unfortunately as it closed, there was little point in maintaining the substantial viaduct at Mytholmbridge and this was demolished at some point in the following years. Even with this loss realistically ending any hope of reinstatement, the rest of the line wasn't built on until the 1990s.

Possibly for another thread, but I can only think of one reopened line which required the replacement of a significant multi-span bridge, that being the Borders railway.

On the point about retaining land, it’s probably regrettable more lines weren’t kept as foot / cycle paths. Most of these are nowadays pretty popular, and it’s a way of keeping the route clear for any future rail use whilst offering something worthwhile to the population.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
19,352
Location
Yorkshire
On the point about retaining land, it’s probably regrettable more lines weren’t kept as foot / cycle paths. Most of these are nowadays pretty popular, and it’s a way of keeping the route clear for any future rail use whilst offering something worthwhile to the population.
That's easy to say with the benefit of hindsight though. There simply wasn't the same demand for cycle paths and walking routes in the 1960s and 70s. Certainly not as transport infrastructure rather than purely recreational facilities.
It is frustrating that some routes have been put beyond any realistic use by relatively small sections being redeveloped for housing. Railway routes aren't exactly the optimal shape for large scale housing developments but it only needs a small section of route to be lost for reopening to move from "possibly viable" to "never going to happen".
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,275
Respectfully, I can never understand this line of argument, that comes up here all the time. It seems you are saying that BR should have closed the railway but kept the land. Why would they do that? They wouldn’t have closed the railway if they thought they would need to reopen it. When the secondary school near me was demolished and rebuilt elsewhere, the land it previously occupied was sold for housing.
I sometimes wonder how things would look if the various railway enabling Acts had included a requirement that upon possible closure all traces of rail infrastructure had to be removed, so there’d be no disused embankments, cuttings, bridges, or tunnels, or station buildings. So all the fields that were divided would be rejoined, roads would be altered back to ground level, etc etc.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top