CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Peter Sarf]

197021 at CTR TMD since 22/11/25 and Canton prior to that since mid September

Thanks for the update

Other class 197's OOS/spare today not on your list are -

197019
197045 Canton since 29/08/25
197046
197105
197113
197117

Also long term stored 197021 which has been stored on Canton since mid - September was dragged by 197036 on 22/11/25 from Canton - Chester TMD as 5Z97.Unsure if 197036 has worked since 22/11/25 but today has worked 5T36 Chester TMD - Crewe Electric depot for wheel turning

Crewe South yard holds - 197023,197025,197032,197038,197039 and 197040

Ah - Those at Crewe South Yard makes an awful lot of sense for me. How visible are those ?.

AFAIK the ones at Crewe ETD are the units suffering with the cracks. 111 is a demic having failed with major faults at Warrington and Stockport and taking almost 5 days to make it back to base, and not been out since, 126 struck a tree and 110 has been out for most of the year.

ERTMS sets, currently 023/025/032/038/039/040/041 aren't currently shown on TfW systems which normally indicates they haven't been accepted. I believe that the only runs any of them have made have been operated by RoG but may be wrong if anyone has any other info on those.
029 and 030 are more than Cambrian testing and have been used for testing other routes too with upgraded ASDO and PIS packages. ASDO especially needs validation and signing off, as well as testing on some other routes yet.
024/026/027/028/031/033/034/035/037 are all in service today, that only leaves 036 missing which has moved to Crewe Electric today.

Holyhead doesn't look to have much at all there now, certainly not ERTMS units wise which in a way shows how bad things are with the regular sets.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2025 ==


Apologies missed 045 at Canton. Will add. 021 has been to Holyhead but is now on its way back to Chester today by itself so it is around Albeit hasnt seen a passenger since early September.

Of the others-
019 only arrived at Chester yesterday
046 is pencilled in to run ecs to Holyhead this evening, 2300 from Chester. Going back a few days it looks like it failed at Shrewsbury and has been dragged back to Chester so could be a potential storage or tyre turning move.
105 arrived Chester on Friday evening
113 arrived Chester on Wednesday evening
117 arrived Chester on Tuesday evening.

My bold - I can believe that.

And thanks for quoting my post and making me notice that I cannot type 032 correctly (ignore 033 it should be 032).

 

[tfw756rider]

Looks like it. See post #9773 above, and:

View attachment 193162

Ah yes, I see, thanks. Aren't the missing parts cameras? I thought that on 19x (in general) they were Driver-Only Operation cameras (that were actually going to be used on the 196s originally), but are they still just external CCTV, or what?

 

[WirralLine]

Ah yes, I see, thanks. Aren't the missing parts cameras? I thought that on 19x (in general) they were Driver-Only Operation cameras (that were actually going to be used on the 196s originally), but are they still just external CCTV, or what?

Driver Only dispatch cameras, which are disabled (ish, the drivers cant see them when keyed in, but they can be accessed in other cabs). If theyre faulty they throw up faults on the TCMS so despite not being used for anything presumably still need to work.

 

[172007]

I still don't get why this thread is purely for class 197's surely nearly all the faults are common with 195 & 196's too.

Last two messages have covered body side cameras which is highly relevent too the Chiltern class 196's.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I still don't get why this thread is purely for class 197's surely nearly all the faults are common with 195 & 196's too.

Last two messages have covered body side cameras which is highly relevent too the Chiltern class 196's.

Faults are possibly common to all three classes 197, 196 & 195.
BUT
There are plenty of other things that are specific to 197s in this thread - the vast majority of posts.
The whole forum has to be divided up into manageable chunks somehow other wise it would all be just one large thread.
We have to have some sort of structure - and it is the beauty of RUK compared to other places.

You could always start a new thread just for faults that exist on all CAF Civities - I am thinking do the 331s share common faults ?.

 

[WirralLine]

I still don't get why this thread is purely for class 197's surely nearly all the faults are common with 195 & 196's too.

Last two messages have covered body side cameras which is highly relevent too the Chiltern class 196's.

Its not just discussing faults, mainly introduction to service, testing updates etc. No reason to throw 195/196 related stuff in here, they have their own threads.

 

[Pete_uk]

What on earth happened to 111?

 

[chrisjo]

No reason to throw 195/196 related stuff in here, they have their own threads.

No harm in linking to related posts in other threads though.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

No harm in linking to related posts in other threads though.

Think it was locked transmission.

 

[tfw756rider]

Driver Only dispatch cameras, which are disabled (ish, the drivers cant see them when keyed in, but they can be accessed in other cabs). If theyre faulty they throw up faults on the TCMS so despite not being used for anything presumably still need to work.

I see, thanks. Although I heard that 56 of the 77 units always have a "fault" on their TCMS because their non-existent ETCS equipment is "missing", so I'm guessing the faults thrown up for faulty "DOD" cameras would be more significant / have more negative effects?

 

[MP393]

I see, thanks. Although I heard that 56 of the 77 units always have a "fault" on their TCMS because their non-existent ETCS equipment is "missing", so I'm guessing the faults thrown up for faulty "DOD" cameras would be more significant / have more negative effects?

No that’s not correct, on the ETCS units running on the normal routes you do get a “fault” on the TCMS telling you that the ETCS is bypassed/isolated in each cab, but acknowledging it just hides it to another page of the TCMS. The non ETCS units do not show any fault relating to it.

 

[tfw756rider]

No that’s not correct, on the ETCS units running on the normal routes you do get a “fault” on the TCMS telling you that the ETCS is bypassed/isolated in each cab, but acknowledging it just hides it to another page of the TCMS. The non ETCS units do not show any fault relating to it.

Ah OK, thanks for the correction - I must've either misunderstood what was said or it was incorrect information from a usually great source. The faulty camera TCMS fault thing makes more sense now.

 

[WirralLine]

Ah OK, thanks for the correction - I must've either misunderstood what was said or it was incorrect information from a usually great source. The faulty camera TCMS fault thing makes more sense now.

The door camera faults are the same on the TCMS, you acknowledge them and they hide on another page in the background. The ETCS units are a bit different in that its not a fault as such just a warning that the system is isolated, it comes up as a fault and hides on the fault screen though.

Although the DOO cams arnt used, as and when they fail and the TCMS notices, they will replace them when required. When 004 was long term out of use they pinched the cameras off that too

 

[40029 Saxonia]

Ah - Those at Crewe South Yard makes an awful lot of sense for me. How visible are those ?.

My bold - I can believe that.

And thanks for quoting my post and making me notice that I cannot type 032 correctly (ignore 033 it should be 032).

Looking at google maps (satellite view) Crewe South (at least i think that's what it is - west of the main lines in the Basford Hall complex of yards) appears to be very difficult to view, surrounded by trees and running lines. Satellite view shows some 197s there.

Going through previous posts, it looks like 197023/25/32/38/39/40 are 'based'/stored there. 025/32/38/39 have been out on Cambrian trials. 040 has been tested on North Wales line. I can't find anything on 023.

 

[chrisjo]

Those at Crewe South Yard makes an awful lot of sense for me. How visible are those ?.

A few distant glimpses from the Shrewsbury train, but that's it, I think

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Ah - Those at Crewe South Yard makes an awful lot of sense for me. How visible are those ?.

A few distant glimpses from the Shrewsbury train, but that's it, I think

View attachment 193320

You can see them quite well from a WCML train this time of year.
I got surprised by them last Saturday (I was paying attention to the depot).

 

[craigybagel]

No that’s not correct, on the ETCS units running on the normal routes you do get a “fault” on the TCMS telling you that the ETCS is bypassed/isolated in each cab, but acknowledging it just hides it to another page of the TCMS. The non ETCS units do not show any fault relating to it.

Ah OK, thanks for the correction - I must've either misunderstood what was said or it was incorrect information from a usually great source. The faulty camera TCMS fault thing makes more sense now.

When they first arrived and we were training on them, you did get an ETCS fault on the TCMS to say it wasn't working on the units that didn't have it fitted, but they seem to have dealt with that presumably through a software update at some point. Now you only get a warning that it's isolated on the ETCS units.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Thanks to @40029 Saxonia , @chrisjo & @pokemonsuper9 for the info on Crewe South Yard.

I now realise it is sort of in the triangle formed by the Shrewsbury line as it joins Northwards and Southwards onto the WCML (well Station and Basford Hall Yard). That's a lot of trees round it so seeing it from a WCML train is good going - I can guess most people, including me, are staring out the other side of the train at the sheds on the East side of the line (in the fork with the Stoke line) !.

 

[tfw756rider]

When they first arrived and we were training on them, you did get an ETCS fault on the TCMS to say it wasn't working on the units that didn't have it fitted, but they seem to have dealt with that presumably through a software update at some point. Now you only get a warning that it's isolated on the ETCS units.

Thanks for clearing this up - definitely makes a lot more sense now, and it turns out that the great source provided correct information after all!

 

[pokemonsuper9]

@pokemonsuper9 for the info on Crewe South Yard.

It's not a good photo since I wasn't prepared (my phone which was recording was lens down on the table, on the wrong side of the train when I noticed them), but they are definitely visible, not sure how easy getting numbers would be though

 

[Peter Sarf]

It's not a good photo since I wasn't prepared (my phone which was recording was lens down on the table, on the wrong side of the train when I noticed them), but they are definitely visible, not sure how easy getting numbers would be though
View attachment 193421

The side numbers are tricky anyway as they seem to be grey on a white/grey background. From a passing train maybe too low (undergrowth ?), but the three digits above the cab windows are generally more legible so might be visible at the right angle.

 

[87electric]

A recent Basford Hall drone flyover would be helpful but I can’t locate one. They’re very useful tools.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I see 197029 and 197030 went ECS (Empty Coaching Stock) from Holyhead to Shrewbury yesterday. (Saturday 06/12/2025). But not spotted a subsequent move. Are they doing ERTMS tests on the Cambrian or poised for traffic ?.

3C00 09:33 Holyhead to Shrewsbury Abbey Foregate Cs 12:42

Realtime Trains | 3C00 0933 Holyhead Car. M.D. to Shrewsbury Abbey Frgte Cs | 06/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C00 0933 departure from Holyhead Car. M.D. to Shrewsbury Abbey Frgte Cs on 06/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[tfw756rider]

I see 197029 and 197030 went ECS (Empty Coaching Stock) from Holyhead to Shrewbury yesterday. (Saturday 06/12/2025). But not spotted a subsequent move. Are they doing ERTMS tests on the Cambrian or poised for traffic ?.

3C00 09:33 Holyhead to Shrewsbury Abbey Foregate Cs 12:42

Realtime Trains | 3C00 0933 Holyhead Car. M.D. to Shrewsbury Abbey Frgte Cs | 06/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C00 0933 departure from Holyhead Car. M.D. to Shrewsbury Abbey Frgte Cs on 06/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I believe that 197 Cambrian driver training might be about to start.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Dec 2025 ==

Here are the schedules for the week:

Realtime Trains | 3C01 0420 Shrewsbury Abbey Frgte Cs to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs | 08/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C01 0420 departure from Shrewsbury Abbey Frgte Cs to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs on 08/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3C02 0924 Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Aberystwyth | 10/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C02 0924 departure from Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Aberystwyth on 10/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3C03 1020 Aberystwyth to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs | 10/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C03 1020 departure from Aberystwyth to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs on 10/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3C04 1040 Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Shrewsbury | 11/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C04 1040 departure from Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Shrewsbury on 11/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3C05 1226 Shrewsbury to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs | 11/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C05 1226 departure from Shrewsbury to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs on 11/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3C06 1557 Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Pwllheli | 12/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C06 1557 departure from Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Pwllheli on 12/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3C07 1832 Pwllheli to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs | 12/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C07 1832 departure from Pwllheli to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs on 12/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3C11 0423 Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Holyhead Car. M.D. | 13/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C11 0423 departure from Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Holyhead Car. M.D. on 13/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[158822]

Is it really driver training though? Seams unlikely if they aren’t entering service for several months. They will lose competence.

 

[tfw756rider]

Is it really driver training though? Seams unlikely if they aren’t entering service for several months. They will lose competence.

Given that the previous runs were checks before driver training starts, it probably will be.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Is it really driver training though? Seams unlikely if they aren’t entering service for several months. They will lose competence.

Driver competency lasts several months - six months iirc ?. Given all the drivers cannot be trained in an instant there needs to be a start made early. If something goes wrong with the roll out then some drivers will lose competency but I can imagine it is not a full blown course to take again and better than having no drivers if things go right.

Given that the previous runs were checks before driver training starts, it probably will be.

That makes sense and so probably roll out on Cambrian within six months. It is upon us already !.

That must mean enough 398s will be in service on the TAM lines out of Cardiff to allow Flirts to take over their rightful duties and free up enough (?) 197s for Cambrian ?. The final pieces of the TfW jigsaw are soon to fall into place - that's jinxed it !.

 

[craigybagel]

Is it really driver training though? Seams unlikely if they aren’t entering service for several months. They will lose competence.

It's certainly plausible. The regular 197 course is 5 days per driver, and it wouldn't surprise me if it's slightly longer for the Cambrian drivers given the extra complexities of ETCS and the fact it works differently on these units compared to 158s. There's something like 55 drivers to train so you need to start fairly early.

Even if the units don't come into service quick enough for a driver to maintain competence, this isn't unchartered territory. If you do lose competence, it's only a 1 day refresher to regain it rather than the full 5 days from scratch. This was required for a few drivers at other depots, when mass 197 training started quite a while before they eventually entered service. Better to have drivers trained too early than too late!

 

[Rhydgaled]

That makes sense and so probably roll out on Cambrian within six months. It is upon us already !.

That must mean enough 398s will be in service on the TAM lines out of Cardiff to allow Flirts to take over their rightful duties and free up enough (?) 197s for Cambrian ?. The final pieces of the TfW jigsaw are soon to fall into place - that's jinxed it !.

Aren't there some extra workings being introduced between Chester and Wrexham next week (2tph from 15th/14th Dec 2025)? Presumably they would be 197s so even more pressure on the Cardiff Metro to free up some 197s?

 

[WirralLine]

Aren't there some extra workings being introduced between Chester and Wrexham next week (2tph from 15th/14th Dec 2025)? Presumably they would be 197s so even more pressure on the Cardiff Metro to free up some 197s?

Correct