CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[FrodshamJnct]

197028 + 197006 on one of the Chester - Liverpool diagrams today. Rather nice to have 4 cars on what has become a busy service when it’s only 2.

 

[rich.davies]

I've heard a conductor on a North Wales Coast service, slate the use of 4 cars on the Liverpool diagram when we were all crammed on to a 2 car into chester.

 

[nigelsporne]

Not seen anything recently about new units entering service. Are they too busy trying to keep those already in service going?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Not seen anything recently about new units entering service. Are they too busy trying to keep those already in service going?

They should not be getting short of spares so maybe just limited capacity at Chester (as has been mentioned up thread) to fix any that need too much attention.
It does seem to happen with new fleets that there ends up being a shortage of certain spares (ie over optimistic saving on inventory) but in this case it would be rather drastic with so many 197s sidelined and not yet in service. Bear in mind though TfW are not supposed to need 21 of the 2car 197s yet but are using some to cover for Flirts that are covering for yet to be introduced 398s.

I have noticed this run for 197029 & 197030. Holyhead to Holyhead via Llandudo today.

Realtime Trains | 5Z29 1105 Holyhead to Holyhead | 26/11/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Z29 1105 departure from Holyhead to Holyhead on 26/11/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I think these were the pair out on ERTMS testing on the Cambrian recently so maybe just connected directly with that.
BUT maybe this was a run for them to be checked with the ERTMS isolated as required for normal services.
Does anyone know ?.

 

[tfw756rider]

I have noticed this run for 197029 & 197030. Holyhead to Holyhead via Llandudo today.

Realtime Trains | 5Z29 1105 Holyhead to Holyhead | 26/11/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Z29 1105 departure from Holyhead to Holyhead on 26/11/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I think these were the pair out on ERTMS testing on the Cambrian recently

Yes they were. Although they were runs for checks before driver training (such as stopping points, Automated Selective Door Opening and using the triangular Train Step Measuring Guide). There were ERTMS mileage accumulation runs on the Cambrian two-and-a-bit weeks prior in late October though.

 

[Gordonman]

They should not be getting short of spares so maybe just limited capacity at Chester (as has been mentioned up thread) to fix any that need too much attention.
It does seem to happen with new fleets that there ends up being a shortage of certain spares (ie over optimistic saving on inventory) but in this case it would be rather drastic with so many 197s sidelined and not yet in service. Bear in mind though TfW are not supposed to need 21 of the 2car 197s yet but are using some to cover for Flirts that are covering for yet to be introduced 398s.

I have noticed this run for 197029 & 197030. Holyhead to Holyhead via Llandudo today.

Realtime Trains | 5Z29 1105 Holyhead to Holyhead | 26/11/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Z29 1105 departure from Holyhead to Holyhead on 26/11/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I think these were the pair out on ERTMS testing on the Cambrian recently so maybe just connected directly with that.
BUT maybe this was a run for them to be checked with the ERTMS isolated as required for normal services.
Does anyone know ?.

I believe the main issues are a lack of spare parts currently.

Lack of capacity at Chester is also an issue though.This is highlighted by the number of demic units currently 'dumped' in several locations throughout the TFW network,Chester Middle Yard,Crewe Electric,Holyhead,Cardiff Canton to name a few.There are units at all these locations awaiting a trip to Chester for repairs.The other issue is the class 197's can only currently be maintained at Chester.Cardiff Canton cannot touch them as far as I know apart from overnight cleaning etc.This is written into the CAF/TFW contract.

The wheelset problem appears to have been alleviated since the wheel lathe at Holyhead opening for use and continuing access to the lathe's at Crewe Electric and Barton Under Needwood.

Northern are suffering similar issues to TFW.On Monday,12/33 of their 3 car class 195's were OOS.

I also presume that TFW are being paid handsomly by CAF for the lack of availability of units.

Thanks for the info on 197029/197030 today.Perhaps as you say getting ready for an introduction to service.

There were a few test runs in the early hours of this morning between Crewe South Yard and Chester (5Q31 - 5Q34).Anyone know which unit(s) worked these?197040 must be a possibility but I have seen no paths for it to work from the LNWR depot at Crewe to the south yard.Any help would be appreciated.

Apologies for the ramble!

 

[tfw756rider]

I believe that there hasn't been a 197 entry-to-service since 197037 was the 70th 197 (of 77) to enter service, doing so on the 2/10/25, which as of me posting this on the 27/11/25 is nearly 2 months ago.

The 70 197s that have been in service are 197001-022, 197024, 197026-031, 197033-037, 197042-051 and 197101-126.

The 7 197s still to enter service are 197023, 197025, 197032 and 197038-041.

However, at least 4 of those 7 (197025, 197032, 197038 and 197039) have been on Cambrian testing.

That leaves 197023 and 197040 (which have been delivered), and 197041 (which is still to be delivered).

 

[Peter Sarf]

I believe that there hasn't been a 197 entry-to-service since 197037 was the 70th 197 (of 77) to enter service, doing so on the 2/10/25, which as of me posting this on the 27/11/25 is nearly 2 months ago.

The 70 197s that have been in service are 197001-022, 197024, 197026-031, 197033-037, 197042-051 and 197101-126.

The 7 197s still to enter service are 197023, 197025, 197032 and 197038-041.

However, at least 4 of those 7 (197025, 197032, 197038 and 197039) have been on Cambrian testing.

That leaves 197023 and 197040 (which have been delivered), and 197041 (which is still to be delivered).

Also 197029 & 197030 have recently been on Cambrian testing but were in normal service before that.

How many 197s are inactive at Holyhead these days ?.
Of these how many are the Cambrian/ERTMS/ETCS ones (out of 197003, & 197021-041) ?.

 

[tfw756rider]

Also 197029 & 197030 have recently been on Cambrian testing but were in normal service before that.

Exactly, which is why I didn't mention them, as well as 197003/024/031/033/035, the units I know to have been on the Cambrian in addition to 197025/029/030/032/038/039

 

[Peter Sarf]

Exactly, which is why I didn't mention them, as well as 197003/024/031/033/035, the units I know to have been on the Cambrian in addition to 197025/029/030/032/038/039

It is certainly complicated - I have even been wondering if any 197s that have been used on Cambrian testing have subsequently done a stint in normal service.

 

[tfw756rider]

It is certainly complicated - I have even been wondering if any 197s that have been used on Cambrian testing have subsequently done a stint in normal service.

Certainly 197003/024/033/035 have been in service "off-Cambrian" after doing Cambrian testing. Maybe 197029/030/031/033 (which have been on Cambrian testing) have since been in service "off-Cambrian" as well, but I'm not sure.

The point I was making was that I believe that 197025/032/038/039 have been on Cambrian testing but have not been in any passenger service

 

[Peter Sarf]

Certainly 197003/024/033/035 have been in service "off-Cambrian" after doing Cambrian testing. Maybe 197029/030/031/033 (which have been on Cambrian testing) have since been in service "off-Cambrian" as well, but I'm not sure.

The point I was making was that I believe that 197025/032/038/039 have been on Cambrian testing but have not been in any passenger service

I can add that your belief is likely correct. As far as I know you are correct in as much as 197025, 197032, 197038 & 197039 have never been in passenger service. Whether used for Cambrian testing I have too little knowledge/recollection but it seems likely.

Something I am stuck on is the expectation that the 197s not in use will get used in an attempt to keep them healthy. As in a healthy rotation of units stored. I wonder how many at Holyhead for instance are stored but too un-serviceable to use ?.
Obviously use of the whole lot on Cambrian Coast might be just round the corner !.

 

[tfw756rider]

I can add that your belief is likely correct. As far as I know you are correct in as much as 197025, 197032, 197038 & 197039 have never been in passenger service. Whether used for Cambrian testing I have too little knowledge/recollection but it seems likely.

They definitely have!

Video of 197032+197038 at Newtown

Photos of 197025+197039 at Machynlleth

Obviously use of the whole lot on Cambrian Coast might be just round the corner !.

Cambrian (Main and Coast) 197 passenger services won't start until late summer 2026 (estimated).

 

[Peter Sarf]

They definitely have!

Video of 197032+197038 at Newtown

Photos of 197025+197039 at Machynlleth


Cambrian (Main and Coast) 197 passenger services won't start until late summer 2026 (estimated).

Thanks.

 

[Welshguy1048]

Afternoon

Anyone know if this is 197s on test or just being moved to Chester ? Also any idea on the allocation for it too please ?

Realtime Trains | 5T31 1452 Holyhead Car. M.D. to Chester D.M.U.D. | 28/11/2025

Real-time train running information for 5T31 1452 departure from Holyhead Car. M.D. to Chester D.M.U.D. on 28/11/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Thank you

Dave

 

[tfw756rider]

Thanks.

Welcome

 

[Peter Sarf]

Afternoon

Anyone know if this is 197s on test or just being moved to Chester ? Also any idea on the allocation for it too please ?

Realtime Trains | 5T31 1452 Holyhead Car. M.D. to Chester D.M.U.D. | 28/11/2025

Real-time train running information for 5T31 1452 departure from Holyhead Car. M.D. to Chester D.M.U.D. on 28/11/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Thank you

Dave

197031 thanks to info from @ls2270.

Judging by the planned speed of 45mph max I am going to assume it might have been limping a bit ?.

 

[Welshguy1048]

197031 thanks to @ls2270.

@Peter Sarf
@ls2270

Thank you

Appreciate all your help

Dave

 

[northstaffsman]

For info 197.040 out on test between Crewe and Holyhead today

 

[Peter Sarf]

For info 197.040 out on test between Crewe and Holyhead today

Thanks.

That just leaves 197041 to emerge from the CAF factory.

Makes me wonder what 197038 & 197039 are up to ?.

Also which 197s are (stored) at Holyhead.

Is it time for e new list of locations ?.

 

[sd0733]

Thanks.

That just leaves 197041 to emerge from the CAF factory.

Makes me wonder what 197038 & 197039 are up to ?.

Also which 197s are (stored) at Holyhead.

Is it time for e new list of locations ?.

AFAIK 038 and 039 are stored in Crewe South Yard. Neither show in the system as TfW units yet. Could just be its not been updated though.
197029 and 030 are at Holyhead but I believe are currently being used for various tests with software improvements so havent been in service while thats validated. They were last out late last week.

Current ones which haven't moved anywhere over the past 7 days look to be:

197003 at Holyhead long term
197012 at Canton since 24/11
197014 at Canton since 20/11
197016 at Canton since 04/11
197021 move to Chester this evening previously long term stopped at Canton/Holyhead
197022 at Chester since 24/11
197045 at Canton since 29/08
197047 at Crewe ETD since 22/09
197107 at Crewe ETD since 10/09
197110 at Chester Long term
197111 at Chester since 20/11
197114 at Crewe ETD since 10/09
197116 at Crewe ETD since 10/09
197126 at Chester since 13/10.

 

[Peter Sarf]

AFAIK 038 and 039 are stored in Crewe South Yard. Neither show in the system as TfW units yet. Could just be its not been updated though.
197029 and 030 are at Holyhead but I believe are currently being used for various tests with software improvements so havent been in service while thats validated. They were last out late last week.

Current ones which haven't moved anywhere over the past 7 days look to be:

197003 at Holyhead long term
197012 at Canton since 24/11
197014 at Canton since 20/11
197016 at Canton since 04/11
197022 at Chester since 24/11
197047 at Crewe ETD since 22/09
197107 at Crewe ETD since 10/09
197110 at Chester Long term
197111 at Chester since 20/11
197114 at Crewe ETD since 10/09
197116 at Crewe ETD since 10/09
197126 at Chester since 13/10.

Thanks.

That is quite a few of the three car 197s inactive (4 are > 2 months, 2 are > 10 days) 6/26 is 23%.
For two car 197s the list shows six but I think there are a lot of the ERTMS ones (007, 022-041) that I am not seeing in action.

Of the ERTMS 197s I have not noticed 003, 023, 025, 032 033 in action (certainly not in service) for a long time.
As you say 029 & 030 are testing on the Cambrian
Also 038-041 but they can be argued to still be in various stages of testing/acceptance.

I know that strictly speaking the ERTMS 197s are for Cambrian but about a dozen have found use on the rest of the TfW netowrk. Not sure all are still in use and I guess Holyhead might be holding a good few to keep 003 company.

EDIT 7 hours later 032 NOT 033 .

 

[Jez]

AFAIK 038 and 039 are stored in Crewe South Yard. Neither show in the system as TfW units yet. Could just be its not been updated though.
197029 and 030 are at Holyhead but I believe are currently being used for various tests with software improvements so havent been in service while thats validated. They were last out late last week.

Current ones which haven't moved anywhere over the past 7 days look to be:

197003 at Holyhead long term
197012 at Canton since 24/11
197014 at Canton since 20/11
197016 at Canton since 04/11
197022 at Chester since 24/11
197047 at Crewe ETD since 22/09
197107 at Crewe ETD since 10/09
197110 at Chester Long term
197111 at Chester since 20/11
197114 at Crewe ETD since 10/09
197116 at Crewe ETD since 10/09
197126 at Chester since 13/10.

Thanks for the update. Seems quite a few 3 cars are out of service out of the total fleet of 26. Often a 4 car turns up on Manchester-West Wales vice a 5 car for this reason.

 

[Gordonman]

AFAIK 038 and 039 are stored in Crewe South Yard. Neither show in the system as TfW units yet. Could just be its not been updated though.
197029 and 030 are at Holyhead but I believe are currently being used for various tests with software improvements so havent been in service while thats validated. They were last out late last week.

Current ones which haven't moved anywhere over the past 7 days look to be:

197003 at Holyhead long term
197012 at Canton since 24/11
197014 at Canton since 20/11
197016 at Canton since 04/11

197021 at CTR TMD since 22/11/25 and Canton prior to that since mid September

197022 at Chester since 24/11
197047 at Crewe ETD since 22/09
197107 at Crewe ETD since 10/09
197110 at Chester Long term
197111 at Chester since 20/11
197114 at Crewe ETD since 10/09
197116 at Crewe ETD since 10/09
197126 at Chester since 13/10.

Thanks for the update

Other class 197's OOS/spare today not on your list are -

197019
197045 Canton since 29/08/25
197046
197105
197113
197117

Also long term stored 197021 which has been stored on Canton since mid - September was dragged by 197036 on 22/11/25 from Canton - Chester TMD as 5Z97.Unsure if 197036 has worked since 22/11/25 but today has worked 5T36 Chester TMD - Crewe Electric depot for wheel turning

Crewe South yard holds - 197023,197025,197032,197038,197039 and 197040

 

[Welshguy1048]

@sd0733
@Gordonman

Evening

Is this a 197 being moved from Holyhead to Chester ?

Realtime Trains | 5T21 1900 Holyhead Car. M.D. to Chester D.M.U.D. | 01/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 5T21 1900 departure from Holyhead Car. M.D. to Chester D.M.U.D. on 01/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Thank you

Dave

Edited - it's 197021 - on RTT now

 

[sd0733]

Thanks.

That is quite a few of the three car 197s inactive (4 are > 2 months, 2 are > 10 days) 6/26 is 23%.
For two car 197s the list shows six but I think there are a lot of the ERTMS ones (007, 022-041) that I am not seeing in action.

Of the ERTMS 197s I have not noticed 003, 023, 025, 033 in action (certainly not in service) for a long time.
As you say 029 & 030 are testing on the Cambrian
Also 038-041 but they can be argued to still be in various stages of testing/acceptance.

I know that strictly speaking the ERTMS 197s are for Cambrian but about a dozen have found use on the rest of the TfW netowrk. Not sure all are still in use and I guess Holyhead might be holding a good few to keep 003 company.

AFAIK the ones at Crewe ETD are the units suffering with the cracks. 111 is a demic having failed with major faults at Warrington and Stockport and taking almost 5 days to make it back to base, and not been out since, 126 struck a tree and 110 has been out for most of the year.

ERTMS sets, currently 023/025/032/038/039/040/041 aren't currently shown on TfW systems which normally indicates they haven't been accepted. I believe that the only runs any of them have made have been operated by RoG but may be wrong if anyone has any other info on those.
029 and 030 are more than Cambrian testing and have been used for testing other routes too with upgraded ASDO and PIS packages. ASDO especially needs validation and signing off, as well as testing on some other routes yet.
024/026/027/028/031/033/034/035/037 are all in service today, that only leaves 036 missing which has moved to Crewe Electric today.

Holyhead doesn't look to have much at all there now, certainly not ERTMS units wise which in a way shows how bad things are with the regular sets.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2025 ==

197021 at CTR TMD since 22/11/25 and Canton prior to that since mid September

Thanks for the update

Other class 197's OOS/spare today not on your list are -

197019
197045 Canton since 29/08/25
197046
197105
197113
197117

Also long term stored 197021 which has been stored on Canton since mid - September was dragged by 197036 on 22/11/25 from Canton - Chester TMD as 5Z97.Unsure if 197036 has worked since 22/11/25 but today has worked 5T36 Chester TMD - Crewe Electric depot for wheel turning

Crewe South yard holds - 197023,197025,197032,197038,197039 and 197040

Apologies missed 045 at Canton. Will add. 021 has been to Holyhead but is now on its way back to Chester today by itself so it is around Albeit hasnt seen a passenger since early September.

Of the others-
019 only arrived at Chester yesterday
046 is pencilled in to run ecs to Holyhead this evening, 2300 from Chester. Going back a few days it looks like it failed at Shrewsbury and has been dragged back to Chester so could be a potential storage or tyre turning move.
105 arrived Chester on Friday evening
113 arrived Chester on Wednesday evening
117 arrived Chester on Tuesday evening.

 

[tfw756rider]

ERTMS sets, currently 023/025/032/038/039/040/041 aren't currently shown on TfW systems which normally indicates they haven't been accepted. I believe that the only runs any of them have made have been operated by RoG but may be wrong if anyone has any other info on those.

197032+038 and 197025+039 have been on ROG Cambrian night-time runs:

Video of 197032+197038 at Newtown

Photos of 197025+197039 at Machynlleth

Thanks as usual. Do you know why 197003 and 197110 in particular have been long-term out of use (if I'm understanding that right)?

 

[chrisjo]

Do you know why 197003 and 197110 in particular have been long-term out of use (if I'm understanding that right)?

I saw 110 at CTR last week and it had more bits removed from the outside and holes taped over than it had about 10 days previously.

 

[tfw756rider]

I saw 110 at CTR last week and it had more bits removed from the outside and holes taped over than it had about 10 days previously.

Ah thanks, so it's a 197 that parts are "borrowed" from

 

[chrisjo]

Ah thanks, so it's a 197 that parts are "borrowed" from

Looks like it. See post #9773 above, and: