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I travel on CrossCountry on a seasonal basis, typically from Newcastle to Bristol Parkway, sadly no longer run by HSTs. I would like to know how much journey times changed since the introduction of HSTs in the 80s and the various route variations (including any service to/from South Wales), the calling patterns and which services were HST operated. Any info would be appreciated.
I travel on CrossCountry on a seasonal basis, typically from Newcastle to Bristol Parkway, sadly no longer run by HSTs. I would like to know how much journey times changed since the introduction of HSTs in the 80s and the various route variations (including any service to/from South Wales), the calling patterns and which services were HST operated. Any info would be appreciated.
timetableworld.com has the national timetable for 1982 online; Table 51 is your friend here. The service was mixed HST and LH at that stage - the "fork and plate" symbol is a clue as well as the timings.
The most variation in route terms will have been the various ways of getting between York and Sheffield - only some of which are distinguishable by looking at the public timetable.
I travelled occasionally on Cross Country routes from York in the 80s and early 90s. Mainly to Birmingham, Cheltenham and Paignton. South of York on Cross Country routes HST's didnt make as much difference to timings as they did on introduction to the ECML, but were still quicker. During this period more 'HST' speed differentials appeared and timings did improve slowly.
The main thing was the route south from York. Going via Leeds has always resulted in a ~20minute journey time penalty. From memory not as many went via Leeds during this period, prior to the Selby diversion opening they would be routed directly from York to Sheffield via Pontefract Baghill, once the Selby diversion opened the majority of trains were routed via Doncaster.
Again, from memory, prior to and during HST introduction haulage would typically be a class 47 with a mix of Mk 2 stock, although Mk 1 stock was still in use as well. I think some loco hauled services hung on for quite a while.
Stopping pattern, South from Sheffield stopping pattern was pretty much Chesterfield (a few I think skipped) Derby Birmingham NS Cheltenham Some called Gloucester and reversed and then Bristol Parkway and Temple Meads. Stops at Burton and Tamworth were rare on the trains I used.
Capacity was rarely an issue on weekdays, which was when I was travelling, for work, and some summer Saturday services did some long non stop runs, but I have no personal experience of those.
Mid to late 80s, ISTR it being a fairly safe bet that if it stopped at Gloucester it was an HST (makes sense!)
Not referring to the of South Wales working where the logic wouldn’t apply.
In the early 70s I made quite a few journeys from Newcastle to Plymouth and back, and two points remain in memory. One was passing through Pontefract Baghill as said already, and the other was that over the course of a Sunday there were very few, (or maybe just one or two?), full through services.
Basically most trips involved stepping back a train somewhere between Sheffield and Bristol, ie the majority of the services were Newcastle to Bristol, overlapping with Sheffield to Plymouths, similarly in the northbound direction. So over the course of about 6 months I changed at various main stations just for variety, including Derby, New St, and Cheltenham. Possibly Burton on Trent?
During March 1982 I travelled on my first cross country HST service between Sheffield and York. This service, the 1450 Plymouth-York SuO (43165/6) was routed via Cudworth, Normanton and Castleford.
My next three journeys during December 1982 were all routed via Pontefract. I’m not sure when the route via Cudworth was abandoned by BR.
The services used were:
6/12/82 1512 Plymouth-York (43191/2)
18/12/82 0915 Newcastle-Cardiff C (43179/80)
18/12/82 1554 Cardiff C-Newcastle (43179/80)
Again, from memory, prior to and during HST introduction haulage would typically be a class 47 with a mix of Mk 2 stock, although Mk 1 stock was still in use as well. I think some loco hauled services hung on for quite a while
I’m not 100% sure but I’m assuming it was a cost cutting measure by BR. Both routes via Cudworth and Pontefract suffered from mining subsidence. With the introduction of the Selby diversion there was an opportunity for slightly faster services between York and Sheffield via Doncaster.
When the NEC first opened only the morning northbound and afternoon southbound trains ran via Coventry. The big change with more through running via Coventry, at all times of the day, only started in May 1979.
Aircons on NE/SW also started in 1979, using stock cascaded from the ECML after introduction of HSTs. Prior to that almost everything on NE/SW was steam heat, apart from the trains to/from the Reading direction, which were usually Bescot class 47/4s.
I travel on CrossCountry on a seasonal basis, typically from Newcastle to Bristol Parkway, sadly no longer run by HSTs. I would like to know how much journey times changed since the introduction of HSTs in the 80s and the various route variations (including any service to/from South Wales), the calling patterns and which services were HST operated.
The introduction of HSTs screwed up the regular interval timetable, because the operators didn't have enough HSTs. I can't remember if this was the Ministry of Transport reducing the order, or sets being nicked for the Midland Main Line, or a mixture of both.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
This is right, but the 1983 timetable is easier because the HSTs are marked "125". This only has 12 trains in each direction, and a quick (literally) back of an envelope calculation indicates that the service needed 12 sets. All trains were on the NE/SW axis, including all of the Newcastle trains except for the Poole. This made best use of the HSTs north of York where they could run at 125mph and not get in the way of ECML trains. The same applied to a lesser extent on the WR.
It is a bit after my time but the expansion of HSTs on cross country, including the route via Reading, only happened in the late 1980s, using HSTs cascaded from the ECML when the class 91s and MarkIVs were introduced.
My recollection of the 1980s is the timetable planners doing lots of tinkering to try to make best use of the few HSTs they had.
ps apologies for double post, one of those senior moments pressing post instead of insert.
A quick look at journey times since the 1981 introduction of HSTs shows journey times on say Newcastle to Plymouth almost exactly the same as now, 45 years later.
The big change has been in frequency. Then you just really had one or two trains to go for. Nowadays its an hourly service, When I was in Edinburgh in 1972 there was a novel introduction of a through train from Edinburgh to Taunton and the West Country, via York (which I amused the ticket office staff at Waverley by calling it the "Torbay Express"). It was actually achieved just by starting a Newcastle service back there, but was notable. Actually it seemed like an early challenge by the NE-SW team against what came in 1974 with the WCML electrification, when one of the several new Edinburgh/Glasgow to Birmingham services ran through to Plymouth, and this was another hour quicker.
But both these operations were one a day. Nowadays it's hourly from Edinburgh to Taunton, from 0600 to 1500. The faster WCML through train runs no longer, but every 2 hours from Edinburgh, leaving almost an hour later and changing into the same train at Birmingham, does the same thing.
People did actually go from Edinburgh to the West via London; Flying Scotsman to Kings Cross and the Golden Hind on from Paddington.
I’m not 100% sure but I’m assuming it was a cost cutting measure by BR. Both routes via Cudworth and Pontefract suffered from mining subsidence. With the introduction of the Selby diversion there was an opportunity for slightly faster services between York and Sheffield via Doncaster.
It was one of several closures driven by accountants aiming to make InterCity profitable as costs for the route were allocated to that sector. The subsidence excuse was convenient and had been resolved recently through an investment programme involving some resignalling. Today the route would have been invaluable for capacity between Sheffield and Leeds or York.
This made best use of the HSTs north of York where they could run at 125mph and not get in the way of ECML trains. The same applied to a lesser extent on the WR.
There was no scheduled 100mph+ running by XC HSTs on the WR’s core NE/SW route in most of the BR era.
At that time, the national HST manning agreement specified two drivers over all lines of 100mph+ PSR. The only XC section of the WR in that category at that time was Bristol Parkway to Westerleigh and agreement was reached to exempt it as being unachievable for trains via Charfield.
Scheduled diversions via Swindon though, would have resulted in provision of two drivers.
Yes. Initially W of E via B&H was two drivers (typically OOC/EXE/BR) because of Paddington to Reading. South Wales was another example with (mostly) pairs of OOC and Swansea drivers end-to-end although nothing west of Bristol Parkway was 100mph+.
Originally, both drivers had to stay together throughout the job but a manning easement in the mid-80s allowed for separate diagrams with a second driver provided just for the 100mph+ sections.
I don’t think that single drivers for 100mph+ happened until privatisation?
The separate drivers approach for 125mph running led to a range of issues, for example London to Bristol services dropping the second driver at Bath, to return with the service before their initial colleague. As can be imagined that didn't work well with late running.
Regarding routes through Yorkshire, they did vary, more than once, and there was some considerable investment in first one, then the other, direct routes available from Sheffield to York, via Cudworth and via Pontefract, which were later wrecked by colliery subsidence, and the further realisation that routing via Leeds or Doncaster was commercially better than running without a stop. The Doncaster route became more worthwhile when the Selby diversion enabled 125mph running throughout York to Doncaster.
The separate drivers approach for 125mph running led to a range of issues, for example London to Bristol services dropping the second driver at Bath, to return with the service before their initial colleague. As can be imagined that didn't work well with late running.
Regarding routes through Yorkshire, they did vary, more than once, and there was some considerable investment in first one, then the other, direct routes available from Sheffield to York, via Cudworth and via Pontefract, which were later wrecked by colliery subsidence, and the further realisation that routing via Leeds or Doncaster was commercially better than running without a stop. The Doncaster route became more worthwhile when the Selby diversion enabled 125mph running throughout York to Doncaster.
It is a bit after my time but the expansion of HSTs on cross country, including the route via Reading, only happened in the late 1980s, using HSTs cascaded from the ECML when the class 91s and MarkIVs were introduced.
I don't think the HSTs appeared on the Reading route until about 1991 or 1992.
However I do remember HSTs appearing on Liverpool and Manchester services from the South West in 1984. There were IIRC two Manchester trips and one Liverpool.
If you search for "Mining subsidence" as a thread title you should find a thread from a couple of years back containing all the detail I managed to dig up on this mini-saga.
As far as routing is concerned, occasional trains would still randomly use the Cudworth route in the 80s right up until it was actually severed.
I thought the 46s were also very common on cross country services prior to HST introduction? Although they were pretty much all gone by the mid 80s I think?
I thought the 46s were also very common on cross country services prior to HST introduction? Although they were pretty much all gone by the mid 80s I think?
If you’re looking around the 1980 mark, I can’t think of a mainline loco class except 76s (obviously) probably 44s and maybe 24s that didn’t work somewhere on the cross-country axis at some time or other. 73s were probably the least common.
yet another example of the curse that is "Management accounting!" A strategic investment in our infrastructure thrown away by bean-counters with the wrong remit.
yet another example of the curse that is "Management accounting!" A strategic investment in our infrastructure thrown away by bean-counters with the wrong remit.
I think we have covered this one previously, fact is that rerouting long-distance trains via either Leeds or via Doncaster between Sheffield and York gave a significant frequency and commercial upside to the service to those key points compared to a route that missed both, particularly given the Doncaster route gained a significant advantage with the opening of the Selby diversion, which is actually parallel to, and not many miles to the east of, the Cudworth route - and had a specific agreement with the coal industry not to mine underneath it and wreck its speed capability. Now that was a strategic Inter-City investment.
Possibly the real question should be why the infrastructure investment in the traditional Cudworth route happened in the first place given these advantages of going via alternative lines. That just seems to be railway tradition inertia.
The investment in the Cudworth route (done in agreement with the NCB) was 10-15 yrs before the Selby diversion came along so made sense at the time. The 'traditional' route was the S & K Joint line via Moorthorpe which was then plagued with mining subsidence.
Travelling via Leeds does involve a significant time penalty - back then BR was trying to attract business traffic and thus ran separate XC services to Leeds and York / Newcastle.
Travelling via Leeds does involve a significant time penalty - back then BR was trying to attract business traffic and thus ran separate XC services to Leeds and York / Newcastle.
Maybe, but Leeds provides such a commercial upside (which is why it takes a good while to load and unload), so that doubling the express services to there from both north and south really picked up this traffic, and in passing why it's such a nonsense to do so with 4-car Voyagers. Doncaster also is one of those points which generate long distance traffic well ahead of what might be expected for the size of the town. It has been realised (sometimes very slowly) that offering better services to significant intermediate points provides far better revenue than any drop-off less frequent trains flashing along from end to end might incur. Bristol to London is another modern example.
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