TfW withdrawals (Now just 150/158s to go)

[158822]

70 197s are or have been in service. Even if the first 398 was to enter service soon that doesn’t mean they all will. It took months for all 756s to come online so I wouldn’t expect 231s to be on the lines they are meant for any time soon.

 

[wickham]

TfW has issued a maintenance tender for 158s for 3 years from 1st April 2026 to 1st April 2029 value up to £8m

Assuming this isn't some elaborate 1st April joke, does this mean TfW are keeping the 158s an extra 3 years ?

https://bidstats.uk/tenders/2025/W49/859963749

Very interesting that they have issued a maintainance tender, does this mean then that (due to lack of capacity?) they do not intend to maintain them in house ?
What are the options, perhaps the private operators of Landore or Crewe Carriage Shed ?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

TfW has issued a maintenance tender for 158s for 3 years from 1st April 2026 to 1st April 2029 value up to £8m

Assuming this isn't some elaborate 1st April joke, does this mean TfW are keeping the 158s an extra 3 years ?

https://bidstats.uk/tenders/2025/W49/859963749

Oh dear. That’s very embarrassing for them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Dec 2025 ==

70 197s are or have been in service. Even if the first 398 was to enter service soon that doesn’t mean they all will. It took months for all 756s to come online so I wouldn’t expect 231s to be on the lines they are meant for any time soon.

398s to displace 756s to displace 231s to displace 197s to displace 158s.
Long chain!

 

[vicbury]

Id imagine if they held onto the 158s for a bit longer then they would be assigned to Canton if they were no longer used on the Cambrian. They could cover services that are currently 197s but shouldnt be (Ebbw Vale, Maesteg, Cheltenham) and also used to cover for 197s on the Marches and North Wales Coast. However this is all assuming there will be further delays moving the 231's and 756's onto the routes they are eventually meant to work.

Another year, another fleet for Cheltenham? Since I moved to Lydney in 2022, we've had 170s, 150s, 153s, 158s, 175s, and 197s. Variety is the spice of life I suppose. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if we never receive the 231s!

 

[BillStampy]

Another year, another fleet for Cheltenham? Since I moved to Lydney in 2022, we've had 170s, 150s, 153s, 158s, 175s, and 197s. Variety is the spice of life I suppose. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if we never receive the 231s!

I personally wouldn't mind 158 pairs on the Maestegs, Ebbws and Cheltenhams, sounds good to me! Deal!

 

[vicbury]

I personally wouldn't mind 158 pairs on the Maestegs, Ebbws and Cheltenhams, sounds good to me! Deal!

You can have the 158s on Maestegs, and I'll keep the 197s on Cheltenhams. Deal?

 

[BillStampy]

You can have the 158s on Maestegs, and I'll keep the 197s on Cheltenhams. Deal?

Sounds good to me

 

[Wyrleybart]

398s to displace 756s to displace 231s to displace 197s to displace 158s.
Long chain!

Surely there are some ETCS fitted 197s in store at Holyhead to replace the 158s on the Cambrian lines ?

 

[fgwrich]

Out of interest, does anyone have a list of the 150s that have so far remained with TfW?

Thanks!

 

[158822]

@fgwrich 150s still with TfW are:
150208
150241
150242
150245
150251
150252
150254
150256
150258
150259
150260
150262
150264
150267
150278
150279
150280
150282
150283
150284
150285

 

[tfw756rider]

It seams more realistic to just delay new trains on the Cambrian and use the ETCS 197s to improve capacity and reliability on other lines and run to Birmingham so the Cambrian Coast can have 4 cars more often.

That is the most likely solution if it were to happen. Keep the 158's on the Cambrian routes.

The 197s are estimated to enter service on the Cambrian in late summer 2026, and this will already be 3 years after they were originally meant to in 2023. It therefore seems that the 158s that are staying until up to 2029 will be then be used "off-Cambrian".

 

[MikePJ]

Ken Skates has announced increased services for North Wales over the next 18 months or so, so could the 158s contribute to that?

 

[Wyrleybart]

Ken Skates has announced increased services for North Wales over the next 18 months or so, so could the 158s contribute to that?

If so probably best let the 158s carry one on the Cambrian if the 197s have a lesser seating capacity.

 

[158822]

It seems completely pointless to introduce 197s on the Cambrian Line to move the 158s to somewhere else where 197s probably already run and where there is less need for them. A bit like musical chairs but with trains. Just leave the 158s on the Cambrian Line where they already are. Anyway it wouldn’t look great on TfW if they reintroduced a fleet they said they were getting rid of.

 

[fgwrich]

@fgwrich 150s still with TfW are:
150208
150241
150242
150245
150251
150252
150254
150256
150258
150259
150260
150262
150264
150267
150278
150279
150280
150282
150283
150284
150285

Perfect, thank you for that!

 

[Snow1964]

Ken Skates has announced increased services for North Wales over the next 18 months or so, so could the 158s contribute to that?

We know from the ORR station usage thread that many of stations in North Wales are their busiest for over 25 years. It was one of the first areas to get 197s.

Growth is not so clear for other parts of Wales (but ORR figures are April 2024 to March 2025) and lot of lines did not have new trains 8-20 months ago, so could be lag in any passenger usage uplift.

I wonder if this growth (and upward trend) means they now need to swap some 2car 197s for higher capacity 3car units. Possibly growth means the intended fleet when they were ordered few years ago now has insufficient capacity.

Keeping the 158s would clearly work as a short term fix if there are capacity problems. Of course TfW might need a longer term solution and maybe they simply need additional rolling stock, either more new units, or potentially a batch of intermediate cars to lengthen the units, extending 2car to 3car, or 3car to 4car etc.

 

[D365]

I get the feeling that TfW would rather not run a ’mixed fleet’ on Cambrian for any longer than necessary.

 

[BillStampy]

I get the feeling that TfW would rather not run a ’mixed fleet’ on Cambrian for any longer than necessary.

Can imagine that would be a bit of a nightmare to manage!

 

[cactustwirly]

TfW has issued a maintenance tender for 158s for 3 years from 1st April 2026 to 1st April 2029 value up to £8m

Assuming this isn't some elaborate 1st April joke, does this mean TfW are keeping the 158s an extra 3 years ?

https://bidstats.uk/tenders/2025/W49/859963749

Why would they need to issue a tender when the maintenance is done in house at Mach?

 

[Caaardiff]

IF the 158's stay, it's unlikely 158's will be used anywhere else other than the Cambrian. Mainly because they are maintained by Machynlleth Depot. Other Depots can do maintenance on them, but not to the level of Machynlleth (And Canton - which is too full to do regular maintenance on them).
If TFW keep 158's to new routes or additional capacity, what happens to those new routes and additional capacity when the leases are up? There's no more new trains on order.
But then if the 158's do stay on the Cambrian and maintained by Machynlleth, then the ETCS 197's won't be used for additional capacity or new routes because Chester don't have the capacity to maintain all 77 of them.
I suspect that if TFW are to keep the 158's for 3 more years, then they will sub-lease them to another TOC but still control the heavy maintenance on them, such as C exams which might well be what the tender is for. The main contenders are GWR and Northern. I'm not entirely sure on their fleet position but I wonder if a 3 year sub-lease will see them through to new fleets, rather than taking on the TFW 158's themselves through the ROSCO.

Why would they need to issue a tender when the maintenance is done in house at Mach?

Possibly for C Exams, which are currently done at Barton Hill and Pullmans.

 

[chargesmith]

Where are the 158s not operated by TfW maintained? I believe GWR and EMR run them, possibly others too?

Even if the 158s are not run by TfW in the future they will still need to be maintained by someone so perhaps this is merely unrelated to their rolling stock plans and is more about securing rail industry jobs in Wales?

 

[cactustwirly]

Where are the 158s not operated by TfW maintained? I believe GWR and EMR run them, possibly others too?

Even if the 158s are not run by TfW in the future they will still need to be maintained by someone so perhaps this is merely unrelated to their rolling stock plans and is more about securing rail industry jobs in Wales?

GWR is Exeter? Was St Philips Marsh but moved when they cascaded down?

EMR is Eastcroft and Northern is Neville Hill and Heaton

Your last point is extremely unlikely as the other TOCs 158s lack ECTS and can't run to Mach, why would TfW issue a tender anyway? It is would most likely end up in Crewe or somewhere like that

 

[Cambrian359]

While 158s potentially remaining on the Cambrian a couple of more years could upset some groups I certainly think this is a very positive step in addressing the current severely behind schedule cascade of fleets and the reliability issues across the board with both new and old fleets.
A 4 car 158 during summer on the Cambrian is better than a 2 car 197 if the 158s get withdrawn while all other fleets are still stretched & shortened in booked formations to make up for it.(same said for whichever route they may be kept to operate on)

 

[HamworthyGoods]

GWR is Exeter? Was St Philips Marsh but moved when they cascaded down?

EMR is Eastcroft and Northern is Neville Hill and Heaton

Your last point is extremely unlikely as the other TOCs 158s lack ECTS and can't run to Mach, why would TfW issue a tender anyway? It is would most likely end up in Crewe or somewhere like that

GW - Currently 2 car 158s are St Phillip’s Marsh and 3 car 158s are Exeter.

 

[tfw756rider]

If so probably best let the 158s carry one on the Cambrian if the 197s have a lesser seating capacity.

Please see post #1,781. Also, in the 197 thread, discussion of possible Cambrian 197 driver training in the week beginning the 8/12/25 has started. Finally, the Cambrian will get 197s in service; this has always been the plan (hence why there's an ETCS-fitted batch of 197s in the first place), and is the reason that night-time testing started as early as May 2022, and daytime testing started in July 2024, through to the recent pre-driver-training check runs in November 2025 and I believe driver training is about to start in December 2025.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Dec 2025 ==

While 158s potentially remaining on the Cambrian a couple of more years could upset some groups

I believe (bolded) is highly unlikely (well, at least only 158s) - please see above.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Dec 2025 ==

Where are the 158s not operated by TfW maintained? I believe GWR and EMR run them, possibly others too?

There are 171 Class 158 units in service, split into 6 operators - home depots:

East Midlands Railway (26) - Nottingham Eastcroft
Great Western Railway (18) - Exeter and St. Philip's Marsh (Bristol)
Northern (53) - Heaton (Newcastle-upon-Tyne), Neville Hill (Leeds)
ScotRail (40) - Corkerhill (Glasgow), Inverness
South Western Railway (10 158s in addition to the 29 159s) - Salisbury
Transport for Wales (24) - Machynlleth

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Dec 2025 ==

I suspect that if TFW are to keep the 158's for 3 more years, then they will sub-lease them to another TOC but still control the heavy maintenance on them, such as C exams which might well be what the tender is for. The main contenders are GWR and Northern. I'm not entirely sure on their fleet position but I wonder if a 3 year sub-lease will see them through to new fleets, rather than taking on the TFW 158's themselves through the ROSCO.

Ah yes, maybe. Sounds interesting!

 

[778]

70 197s are or have been in service. Even if the first 398 was to enter service soon that doesn’t mean they all will. It took months for all 756s to come online so I wouldn’t expect 231s to be on the lines they are meant for any time soon.

When the last 197 is introduced is that likely to be the final diesel only train to enter service in Britian?

 

[Wyrleybart]

When the last 197 is introduced is that likely to be the final diesel only train to enter service in Britian?

I don't think so. Aren't some of Northern's 3 Tier replacement plan going to be diesel only ? Might be wrong
Scrub that. Yes the Northern plan is ACs, Multi modes and batteries

 

[Snow1964]

When the last 197 is introduced is that likely to be the final diesel only train to enter service in Britian?

There was a report few months back (which I can't find link to now) that TfW or a Welsh Transport minister said might need to order more trains due to growth, or lengthen some sets due to crowding (Presumably some extra intermediate vehicles)

Don't know if the idea died, or if the purchase process is just churning its way through paperwork. But we do know there seems to have been a recent decision to maintain 158s for upto extra 3 years (which in my eyes is an interim fleet pending additional new units)

This isn't a speculative thread, so not really place to guess, but I would think a new build of some intermediate cars for 197s could still happen.

 

[Caaardiff]

There was a report few months back (which I can't find link to now) that TfW or a Welsh Transport minister said might need to order more trains due to growth, or lengthen some sets due to crowding (Presumably some extra intermediate vehicles)

Don't know if the idea died, or if the purchase process is just churning its way through paperwork. But we do know there seems to have been a recent decision to maintain 158s for upto extra 3 years (which in my eyes is an interim fleet pending additional new units)

This isn't a speculative thread, so not really place to guess, but I would think a new build of some intermediate cars for 197s could still happen.

I'm guessing lengthening 2 cars to 3 cars wouldn't have an effect on the maintenance regime at CAF. 3 car ETCS units are whats needed.
Could any 3 cars be lengthened to 4 cars?

 

[MikePJ]

There was a report few months back (which I can't find link to now) that TfW or a Welsh Transport minister said might need to order more trains due to growth, or lengthen some sets due to crowding (Presumably some extra intermediate vehicles)

Don't know if the idea died, or if the purchase process is just churning its way through paperwork. But we do know there seems to have been a recent decision to maintain 158s for upto extra 3 years (which in my eyes is an interim fleet pending additional new units)

This isn't a speculative thread, so not really place to guess, but I would think a new build of some intermediate cars for 197s could still happen.

Ken Skates announced that he was asking TfW to start a procurement exercise for new trains, as reported by Modern Railways in June: https://www.modernrailways.com/article/tfw-told-start-procuring-more-new-trains

The Welsh Government has instructed Transport for Wales to begin procurement of more new trains, although those ordered in 2018 will not fully be in service for at least a year. To cover additional services in the shorter term, TfW will extend leases on Class 153 DMUs.

Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales Ken Skates, said TfW’s current programme was taking the overall fleet from 270 trains in 2018 to more than 480 next year, but TfW would need more trains as more services were added. “I’ve instructed Transport for Wales to start the process of ordering even more new trains to support these new services,” he said.

The same article talks about how TfW are extending leases on 153s to free up 197s for additional services in North Wales, but it also has this paragraph about 158s on the Cambrian which seems relevant (my bold-italic there):

He [James Price] said replacement of Class 158s west of Shrewsbury with European Train Control System-fitted Class 197 units would not happen this year. “We will probably be in a place to do it early next year. We need to do it in a risk-free way. I think ETCS will be fine. It’s a new fleet and a very much revised depot setup.”

The ETCS Class 197s will be maintained at Machynlleth depot. “We want to see them in use as soon as possible, but there’s no point [introducing them early] if it doesn’t work reliably,” he said. TfW’s Class 158 lease was already long enough to cover Class 197 introduction next year. “We’ve got a six-month window where financially it won’t make any difference.”

So it seems quite possible that they've realised that introducing 197s on the Cambrian will take longer than was planned back in the summer, and so extending the lease on the 158s looks like a good move.