Passenger assistance and violating pick-up/set-down restrictions

[z444z]

The thread on the Stevenage restrictions has got me thinking:

When pick-up or set-down only restrictions are in place but routinely unenforced, I wonder if passengers who require assistance from staff are able to use these trains.

I can imagine passenger assistance bookings might be refused, or station or train staff might cause problems, but if everyone else can use these trains without issue surely those dependent on assistance should be able to as well - could denying someone in this situation be discrimination?

I imagine the answer might come down to whether not enforcing the restrictions is policy, or if the enforcement just doesn’t happen in practice.

Interested to hear thoughts!

 

[74A]

Well for a start they would not be able to make a booking as the train would not show up on the system.

 

[Djgr]

The thread on the Stevenage restrictions has got me thinking:

When pick-up or set-down only restrictions are in place but routinely unenforced, I wonder if passengers who require assistance from staff are able to use these trains.

I can imagine passenger assistance bookings might be refused, or station or train staff might cause problems, but if everyone else can use these trains without issue surely those dependent on assistance should be able to as well - could denying someone in this situation be discrimination?

I imagine the answer might come down to whether not enforcing the restrictions is policy, or if the enforcement just doesn’t happen in practice.

Interested to hear thoughts!

Obviously not

 

[LowLevel]

The thread on the Stevenage restrictions has got me thinking:

When pick-up or set-down only restrictions are in place but routinely unenforced, I wonder if passengers who require assistance from staff are able to use these trains.

I can imagine passenger assistance bookings might be refused, or station or train staff might cause problems, but if everyone else can use these trains without issue surely those dependent on assistance should be able to as well - could denying someone in this situation be discrimination?

I imagine the answer might come down to whether not enforcing the restrictions is policy, or if the enforcement just doesn’t happen in practice.

Interested to hear thoughts!

The train service so far as the passenger is concerned doesn't exist and isn't advertised so obviously not. Pick up and set down only trains aren't exactly a new invention.

 

[TUC]

I am a strong advocate for reliable passenger assistance, but the notion that it would be discriminatory for it not being available to enable people to subvert pick up/set down restrictions is the kind of argument that makes most genuinely disabled people cringe.

 

[z444z]

So in practice these trains are only off-limits to disabled people? Hmmmmmm

 

[LowLevel]

So in practice these trains are only off-limits to disabled people? Hmmmmmm

No, they are off limits to everyone, depending on the extent the railway is prepared to go to prevent or punish their misuse, through direct or indirect means - see: dumping Reading commuters many miles from home on more than one occasion, new tickets being sold or people being removed from trains. I've certainly seen Lumo staff removing someone who boarded a southbound train at Stevenage before.

 

[z444z]

No, they are off limits to everyone, depending on the extent the railway is prepared to go to prevent or punish their misuse, through direct or indirect means - see: dumping Reading commuters many miles from home on more than one occasion, new tickets being sold or people being removed from trains. I've certainly seen Lumo staff removing someone who boarded a southbound train at Stevenage before.

My original post said “When pick-up or set-down only restrictions are in place but routinely unenforced”

 

[Benjwri]

My original post said “When pick-up or set-down only restrictions are in place but routinely unenforced”

Anyone doing so is still potentially boarding a train without a valid ticket, just because they are not caught doesn't mean it is allowed.

 

[AlterEgo]

The thread on the Stevenage restrictions has got me thinking:

When pick-up or set-down only restrictions are in place but routinely unenforced, I wonder if passengers who require assistance from staff are able to use these trains.

I can imagine passenger assistance bookings might be refused, or station or train staff might cause problems, but if everyone else can use these trains without issue surely those dependent on assistance should be able to as well - could denying someone in this situation be discrimination?

Not really, no.

If a station was closed until 0600 and a train called there at 0540 to pick up staff only, but every day a few people vaulted the fence to access the train, would the person in a wheelchair be being discriminated against? No.

The fact that some people break the rules because they are able bodied doesn't mean that disabled people who cannot similarly break the rules are being discriminated against.

 

[z444z]

It seems I’m a bit out there in thinking disabled people should be given assistance even when it involves breaking minor rules that it’s accepted everyone else is “allowed” to break!

 

[TUC]

It seems I’m a bit out there in thinking disabled people should be given assistance even when it involves breaking minor rules that it’s accepted everyone else is “allowed” to break!

To be honest, your approach makes no more sense than saying that staff should help disabled people to cross railway tracks because other people do it,

 

[35B]

It seems I’m a bit out there in thinking disabled people should be given assistance even when it involves breaking minor rules that it’s accepted everyone else is “allowed” to break!

I've no more problem with disabled people breaking rules than anyone else. But the idea that they should be assisted by railway staff to break those rules is frankly Alice in Wonderland logic. Taking the scenario of the OP, at what point is the individual requiring assistance actually disadvantaged compared to their able-bodied counterpart?

 

[chrisjo]

I've no more problem with disabled people breaking rules than anyone else. But the idea that they should be assisted by railway staff to break those rules is frankly Alice in Wonderland logic. Taking the scenario of the OP, at what point is the individual requiring assistance actually disadvantaged compared to their able-bodied counterpart?

There must be a lot of crimes or offences that disabled people find difficult to perpetrate in comparison with the 'abled', perhaps a priority list would help us get a better idea of the scale of the problem.

 

[noddingdonkey]

The analogy might be that an able-bodied person could climb over a fence to gain access to a music festival, it's not discrimination that the stewards wouldn't assist a disabled person to gain entry in that way.

That said, there might be rare situations when it waiving a pick up only restriction is a reasonable adjustment, for example if there are more wheelchair users intending to board a service than can be accommodated, allowing some to travel on the next service that is pick-up only at their destination might be reasonable.

 

[z444z]

That said, there might be rare situations when it waiving a pick up only restriction is a reasonable adjustment, for example if there are more wheelchair users intending to board a service than can be accommodated, allowing some to travel on the next service that is pick-up only at their destination might be reasonable.

This is interesting, thank you!

I will just have to accept most will probably not agree with my take on this

 

[Bevan Price]

I will be interested to see what happens in the new timetable, when about half the Avanti WCML London - Liverpool services get a new, set down only stop at Liverpool South Parkway. Everyone at South Parkway knows that all (northbound) trains are going to Lime Street, and there are rarely any station staff on the platform. Will any efforts be made to stop people boarding the Avanti trains.

(Some Southbound have pick-up only stops at South Parkway, but these will not be shown at Lime Street as having an advertised stop at South Parkway, so most passengers at Lime Street are unlikely to try to use those trains just to get to South Parkway.)

 

[LowLevel]

I will be interested to see what happens in the new timetable, when about half the Avanti WCML London - Liverpool services get a new, set down only stop at Liverpool South Parkway. Everyone at South Parkway knows that all (northbound) trains are going to Lime Street, and there are rarely any station staff on the platform. Will any efforts be made to stop people boarding the Avanti trains.

(Some Southbound have pick-up only stops at South Parkway, but these will not be shown at Lime Street as having an advertised stop at South Parkway, so most passengers at Lime Street are unlikely to try to use those trains just to get to South Parkway.)

Don't know why they're bothering to be honest, passengers getting off at South Parkway from Lime St or going to there on the mainline services never seem to be more than single figures. People usually use Merseyrail.

 

[TUC]

Don't know why they're bothering to be honest, passengers getting off at South Parkway from Lime St or going to there on the mainline services never seem to be more than single figures. People usually use Merseyrail.

Wouldn't passengers, especially from outside the area, use the next train from any operator, of which there appears to be six operating between Lime Street and South Parkway? Merseyrail would be regarded as just another TOC.

 

[LowLevel]

Wouldn't passengers, especially from outside the area, use the next train from any operator, of which there appears to be six operating between Lime Street and South Parkway? Merseyrail would be regarded as just another TOC.

To explain further - they usually use Merseyrail for central Liverpool and go to Liverpool Central or one of the other city centre stations, those trains leave from platform 6 which is nowhere near the mainline platforms. People from outside the area I suspect would be more likely to take the Northern line to/from the station called Central rather than the mainline trains to Lime Street.

 

[Djgr]

To explain further - they usually use Merseyrail for central Liverpool and go to Liverpool Central or one of the other city centre stations, those trains leave from platform 6 which is nowhere near the mainline platforms. People from outside the area I suspect would be more likely to take the Northern line to/from the station called Central rather than the mainline trains to Lime Street.

I was going to say something similar.

It's a bit like the mythical passengers who get on at James Street heading inbound on the Loop. It's just not a thing.

 

[dk1]

Reminds me of getting shouted at for trying to board a Virgin Voyager Holyhead service at Lichfield Trent Valley a few years ago. It was set down only and we just wanted to get back to Crewe during a pub crawl. We shouted back to the very vocal train manager that we were ‘railway’ to which he replied “no problem lads, jump aboard”

 

[Haywain]

It's a bit like the mythical passengers who get on at James Street heading inbound on the Loop. It's just not a thing.

I must make a note that I was mythical when I did that.

 

[Kite159]

It's a bit like the mythical passengers who get on at James Street heading inbound on the Loop. It's just not a thing.

Unless it's peak time and you want to get a seat

Board the inbound train at James Street and grab a seat during the changeover of passengers before it returns to James Street where anybody boarding won't get a seat

 

[TUC]

To explain further - they usually use Merseyrail for central Liverpool and go to Liverpool Central or one of the other city centre stations, those trains leave from platform 6 which is nowhere near the mainline platforms. People from outside the area I suspect would be more likely to take the Northern line to/from the station called Central rather than the mainline trains to Lime Street.

I meant people from outside the area changing trains in Liverpool, for which they would almost certainly directly change in Lime Street.

 

[LowLevel]

Sure, probably - they can account for the small handful I suppose

 

[Tetchytyke]

Don't know why they're bothering to be honest, passengers getting off at South Parkway from Lime St or going to there on the mainline services never seem to be more than single figures. People usually use Merseyrail.

It seems to be a 'thing' with lots of these sorts of intercity services though. LNER's calls at Keighley, Shipley, and Horsforth have similar restrictions. Other than allowing early running, I don't see the point either. If someone wants to catch the LNER from Shipley to Bradford Forster Square, why not?

The only other thing I can think of is that Avanti don't want to involve themselves with the local PTE ticketing.

The only time I've used the Lime Street to South Parkway trains is when I've been staying at the Radisson Red!

 

[Archvile]

What about staff? I routinely jump on set-down only or leave pick-up only services with my own operator, both when on duty and when travelling in/out. As far as I know, it only falls under the remit of a ticketing irregularity, so if you're entitled to free travel on your own TOC, are there actually any rules being broken?

 

[yorkie]

What about staff? I routinely jump on set-down only or leave pick-up only services with my own operator, both when on duty and when travelling in/out. As far as I know, it only falls under the remit of a ticketing irregularity, so if you're entitled to free travel on your own TOC, are there actually any rules being broken?

See:

LNER Stevenage Pickup/Setdown

As has been discussed on here before LNER no longer want Stevenage - London (and return) passengers on their trains from December and so are adding pickup/setdown only restrictions onto their services. It seems they might not have quite thought it through though, as LNER staff use the trains...

www.railforums.co.uk

There are two ways to do this, as I mentioned in the above thread: either let those 'in the know' do it, or take a militant approach. The latter means staff can't travel either.

LNER could adopt the pragmatic approach taken by SWR/GA, however their company ethos probably won't let them be pragmatic.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Dec 2025 ==

It seems to be a 'thing' with lots of these sorts of intercity services though. LNER's calls at Keighley, Shipley, and Horsforth have similar restrictions. Other than allowing early running, I don't see the point either. If someone wants to catch the LNER from Shipley to Bradford Forster Square, why not?

The only other thing I can think of is that Avanti don't want to involve themselves with the local PTE ticketing.

The only time I've used the Lime Street to South Parkway trains is when I've been staying at the Radisson Red!

I believe Horsforth was abolished because a well known disability campaigner was tipped off that a train in reverse formation prevented a problem for wheelchair users (edit: when going to Harrogate)

After he made a journey that happened to co-incide with such an occurrence (and was filmed and put on YouTube), I believe the argument was along the lines that if there is no provision for wheelchair users then it shouldn't be advertised as an option for anyone.

I believe that other services have been discontinued for similar reasons.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I believe Horsforth was abolished because a well known disability campaigner was tipped off that a train in reverse formation prevented a problem for wheelchair users.

The Horsforth call is still there in the timetable- pick-up only on the way south, set-down only on the way north:



Is the issue with the 2x5 Azumas, I wonder, if a disabled person ends up in the 'wrong' portion?