Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

[Sonic1234]

This is not a view shared by the overwhelming majority of passengers.

Exactly. Although myself I've never quite got the convenience argument - serving yourself a ticket at a TVM or online isn't exactly hard.

Contactless is useful if you are likely to change destination or route mid journey, although I imagine this is a niche thing.

breaching TfL’s best fare on the day guarantee

There are cases within the London zones where contactless isn't the best value - the main one being railcard holders in the evening peak. Break of journey is another one (I assume the guarantee is for single point to point journeys though).

 

[OneOfThe48]

There are cases within the London zones where contactless isn't the best value - the main one being railcard holders in the evening peak. Break of journey is another one (I assume the guarantee is for single point to point journeys though).

I do not believe tickets with Railcards ‘count’ because you cannot - yet - apply a railcard discount to your contactless card.

Similarly break of journeys just isn’t a thing when using Contactless as it would be counted as two separate journeys

 

[benk1342]

Off-peak carnets and contactless have been happily coexisting at Welwyn Garden City for many years, despite the carnet fare undercutting the contactless fare by 10%.

The peak carnets were withdrawn when flexi seasons were introduced, though the flexi seasons offer a worse discount.

And flexi seasons would also violate the “best fare guarantee” by the same argument as carnets but there are many stations which have contactless and flexi seasons available.

So I’m not sure the “best fare guarantee” is the reason for withdrawing the carnets.

 

[JonathanH]

I would assume the logic is that Carnet packs undermine Contactless in providing cheaper tickets than are available via Contactless, breaching TfL’s best fare on the day guarantee, and as such needed to be removed

The withdrawal of ticket types is just 'simplification', which is one of the principles underlying the fares reform which the DfT are bringing in.

As Lord Hendy puts it, in a debate in September,

The Minister of State, Department for Transport
(Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill) (Lab)

My Lords, the fragmented railway we inherited has a fares system that passengers neither understand nor trust. We are addressing this through delivering pay-as-you-go, with simpler fares in London and the south-east, Greater Manchester and the West Midlands, and trialling digital pay-as-you-go in the east Midlands and Yorkshire. On long-distance routes, we are learning from the LNER trial to make long-distance fares easier to understand.

The noble Lord has some background in this, because he was deputy chair of Transport for London and, I think, the Deputy Mayor for Transport. He knows perfectly well that, when we rationalised the fare structure on the Tube, some fares did go up while others went down. We made sure that the fares that went up were generally ones that a lot of people did not pay for and that the benefits were found across the system. If we have 50 million fares, we inevitably need to reduce that number and ensure that they are balanced. The noble Lord has some experience of balancing them within an overall fare rise, so he should use that knowledge to his own advantage, because I do not particularly want to tell him this again.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords...CE9FA4A-1799-41D7-925E-7AD9A82D0D4B/RailFares

 

[OneOfThe48]

The withdrawal of ticket types is just 'simplification', which is one of the principles underlying the fares reform which the DfT are bringing in.

Bit of this, bit of that

But combined, does mean Carnets are a thing of the past in the Oval extension area

Off-peak carnets and contactless have been happily coexisting at Welwyn Garden City for many years, despite the carnet fare undercutting the contactless fare by 10%.

That was done under a different programme with different 'rules' - for instance Welwyn Garden City kept its Super Off Peak fares too which undercut the Contactless fares, an option which is not permitted under Project Oval

 

[cactustwirly]

Here's the situation at Stevenage which is going live with Oval:

Current fares from Stevenage to London Terminals:	Adult	Railcard
Anytime Day Return	£28.90​	£19.20​
Off Peak Day Return (no evening restrictions)	£22.80​	£15.15​
Weekend Super Off Peak Day Return	£16.80​	£11.15​

Note many railcards have morning peak restrictions and/or minimum discounted fares on weekdays

The fares under Project Oval are:

Single fares from Stevenage to Kings Cross/St Pancras	Adult	Railcard
Peak (touch in between 06:30-09:30 and 16:00-19:00)	£14.40​	N/A
Off Peak	£10.00​	N/A

Note - Off Peak fares are charged for travelling into London in the evening peak but peak fares are charged when travelling from London between 16:00 and 19:00

In summary:

• A passenger travelling out in the morning peak and back in the evening peak pays £28.80 - 10p cheaper than the current Anytime Dar Return.
• A passenger travelling out off-peak and back off peak will pay £20.00 compared – a saving of £2.80 or 12%
• A passenger travelling out off-peak but back in the evening peak will pay £24.40 compared to £22.80 at present. An increase of 7%
• A weekend traveller will pay £20.00 compared to £16.80 at present. An increase of 19%

Note that the weekend price from Stevenage to London in 2024 was £14.60. Under Project Oval it becomes £20 – an increase of 37% in less than a year.

For completeness, there is an advantage if a passenger touches in prior to 06:30 on a weekday:

• A passenger travelling out before 06:30 and returning at an off-peak time pays £20.00 compared to £28.90 at present. A saving of 31%
• And a passenger travelling out before 06:30 returning in the evening peak pays £24.40 compared to £28.90 at present. A saving of 16%

Of course railcard discounts and child rate tickets are not available with contactless, anyone wishing to use a railcard or a child rate ticket must purchase a traditional ticket. The fares structure for traditional tickets is being changed to match the contactless fares but there are some unintended consequences. For example, consider a journey from Watton at Stone to Reading:

If you use contactless you can catch the 15.39 departure from Watton at Stone and travel on any train out of PAD and pay an off-peak fare. (as long as you touch in at Watton at Stone before 16.00 you could even catch the 16.09).

Use a paper ticket (perhaps because you want to use a railcard) the last departure you can catch is the 13.39 from WAS because it is not valid on trains timed to depart between 16:00 and 19:00 and the 13:39 from WAS connects to the last valid train at Paddington leaving at 15.23. The 14.09 from WAS connects into the 16.00 departure from PAD which is too late because it falls foul of the no departures between 16.00-19.00 restriction.

This is a significant difference on something that's supposed to be the same.

We then have the of different fares structissue ures at nearby stations. Welwyn Garden City was in an earlier iteration of contactless and retains the 'old' fares structure for traditional tickets, including the lack of evening peak restrictions and weekend super off peak fares. Stations north of Hitchin and Baldock are also not part of Project Oval and retain their existing fares structure as well. To illustrate the impact of this consider the cost of ticket to London Terminals at the weekend:

Welwyn Garden City £12.80
Welwyn North £15.40
Knebworth £16.70
Stevenage £20.00
Hitchin £22.60
Arlesey £19.10

So anyone from Hitchin or Stevenage travelling to London at the weekend will find it cheaper to buy a ticket from Arlesey and start short.

There is publicity at Stevenage station about contactless coming soon, LNER going pick-up/set down only and a rather strange window graphic encouraging people to use the GTR app but nothing about the impact on fares. I suspect there will be some disgrunted passengers on Sunday 14th when they suddenly realise the cost of their travel has increased.

It is frustrating I understand, especially when Labour are scoring political points with the "fares freeze"

However compared to Reading those fares are cheap in comparison! I would do a lot more trips to London if the fares were closer to Stevenage

It's also why I don't look for jobs in London, I would have to be earning close to double my salary to justify the extra travel expenses, the prices quite frankly take the Michael

 

[Haywain]

However compared to Reading those fares are cheap in comparison! I would do a lot more trips to London if the fares were closer to Stevenage

You're aware that Stevenage is somewhat closer to London, aren't you?

 

[JonathanH]

You're aware that Stevenage is somewhat closer to London, aren't you?

Only 9 miles nearer.

 

[Haywain]

Only 9 miles nearer.

Making Reading 33% further. Not an insignificant difference.

 

[PLY2AYS]

It is frustrating I understand, especially when Labour are scoring political points with the "fares freeze"

It’s important to remember that fares freeze is for next year, not this year.

 

[MikeWh]

I've some interesting news about GTR-pre-Oval CPAY fares. https://oysterfares.com/great-northern-southern-and-thameslink-caps-revised/

As part of the set up for the additions to Project Oval next weekend, many of the caps for GTR family routes are being revised for contactless PAYG users from tomorrow. All the daily caps will be set at a small discount (usually 3%) to the price of the one day travelcard, in common with the stations already live under Project Oval, and those due to go live next weekend. This removes one of the inconsistencies with early contactless adoption. I’m hoping similar adjustments happen to the GWR anytime caps and the C2C caps around the Grays area, but we will have to wait a little longer for that.

 

[swt_passenger]

Bit of this, bit of that

But combined, does mean Carnets are a thing of the past in the Oval extension area

Has carnet fare availability ever been widespread in the whole area? Don’t recall SWT/SWR ever having them, but maybe I was too far from London?

 

[CyrusWuff]

It’s important to remember that fares freeze is for next year, not this year.

And also only applies to regulated fares. Depending on the journey that will be one or more of the Anytime Day Single, Anytime Day Return, Off-Peak Return or Weekly Season Ticket. In some cases there may even be no regulated fare at all.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Dec 2025 ==

Has carnet fare availability ever been widespread in the whole area? Don’t recall SWT/SWR ever having them, but maybe I was too far from London?

The majority of formerly franchised TOCs that used to offer Carnets only offered them as an Anytime ticket. They were all withdrawn when Flexi Seasons were introduced in 2021.

 

[JonathanH]

Southern have provided the following information at Reigate station.

Two copies of a full size poster saying that Contactless is coming (with some small print about the fares)

[Picture described above]

Three copies of a poster in A4 size by the ticket office and gateline saying that fares 'towards London' have been simplified with the peak restriction ending at 0930, and nothing about the evening peak back (or to destinations beyond central London).

[Picture described above]

 

[Ticket_man]

At my station peak carnets were removed when the flexi season was introduced.

 

[weeklycommuter]

TfL have won the DfT's contract to expand their contactless payment system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, which also includes the requirement to allow Railcards and concessionary discounts to be added to contactless payment cards

Phase 1

• Contactless payments in 53 stations – majority due by the end of 2022.
• Full-fare, Adult PAYG travel using contactless payment cards and mobile devices across the South East, fully integrated with TfL’s existing scheme.

Phase 2

• Contactless payments in 180 stations – majority due by May 2024.
• Enable discounted PAYG travel for National Rail concessionary customers

It is now December 2025. There is no progress at all on allowing railcards and concessionary discounts to be added to contactless payment cards and the number of stations to which the TfL contactless payment system has been extended is still far short of 233.

The final list of stations to which the TfL contactless payment system will be extended is not even clear. Various maps have been published at various times but it is not clear that the TfL contactless payment system will ever be extended to Cambridge, Brighton, the North Downs Line stations or some other stations shown to be included on some maps. The ten stations on the Marston Vale Line between Bletchley and Bedford are shown as included on some maps but they will be replaced by five new stations in the East West Rail project so surely the TfL contactless payment system will not be extended to the ten existing Marston Vale Line stations.

 

[reduke]

So this morning, as I expected, all barriers were exit only and the staff were predictably uninformed about the continued validity of carnets purchased prior to the change.

Thankfully there were some tickets inspectors there to assist me, but it took far longer than it should, and I doubt their presence will last for very far into the future.

Any suggestions on the best and swiftest way to convince the staff going forwards that I am allowed to use my valid ticket?

As an aside, if someone tricky decides to change the restriction code website to alter the validity times, I presume that this cannot be retroactively applied to previously purchased tickets?

 

[JonathanH]

TfL's single fare finder is updated with new fares.

Of note for travel from Reigate is that all single flows have an afternoon peak, even those to Zone 1, which isn't how the 'paper' fares have been set up. Seems to be the same from other Southern extension stations.

As another example, Leatherhead to Sutton has an afternoon peak, Leatherhead to West Sutton doesn't

Also, the fares to London stations are all at the London Terminals rates, so 'paper' anytime fares to London Thameslink are cheaper than Contactless (unless travelling before 0630).

Having misaligned 'paper' and Contactless fares really isn't what Oval is meant to be about.

 

[Edvid]

The National Rail contactless PAYG map with today's 30 additions is now online.

 

[Hadders]

Looking at the TfL Single Fares Finder something seems to have gone seriously wrong with Stevenage fares…

Stevenage to Kings Cross:
Peak £17.90
Off Peak £12.80

Kings Cross to Stevenage
Peak £14.40
Off Peak £10.00

Stevenage to St Pancras LL
Peak £15.40
Off Peak £11.00

St Pancras LL to Stevenage
Peak £14.40
Off Peak £10.00

Stevenage to Moorgate
Peak £17.30
Off Peak £12.80

Moorgate to Stevenage
Peak £14.40
Off Peak £10.00

The fares to all of these ‘London Terminals’ should be the same (before anyone says, it’s nothing to do with LNER being pick-up/set down only at Stevenage as the Great Northern stoppers all go to/from Kings Cross)

I thought the fares were supposed to be the same, regardless of direction. These contactless fares don’t reflect the paper ticket fares.

 

[JonathanH]

Stevenage to Kings Cross:
Peak £17.90
Off Peak £12.80

Stevenage to London King's Cross Rail Station came up as 'No fares defined' for me. I think you are quoting the fare for the underground station.

Moorgate is being charged on the mixed-mode basis - ie £2.90 peak / £2.80 peak on top of the £14.40 peak / £10.00 off-peak price.

 

[Hadders]

I think you are quoting the fare for the underground station.

I’m not.

 

[JonathanH]

I’m not.

That is odd. I get.

Screenshot from single fare finder showing no PAYG fares for Stevenage to London King's Cross Rail station.

 

[Hadders]

Oysterfares.com and ltfares.com give the same results as I quoted above.

Something is not right…..

 

[Watershed]

LT Fares and Oyster Fares Central (run by @MikeWh) both show the £17.90 / £12.90 fares that @Hadders quoted above. They are driven off the TfL API:

 

[Adam Williams]

What a mess

 

[JonathanH]

LT Fares and Oyster Fares Central (run by @MikeWh) both show the £17.90 / £12.90 fares that @Hadders quoted above. They are driven off the TfL API:
View attachment 193886

View attachment 193885

That seems to be the mixed-mode fare to Zone 1. The rest of the mess seems to be caused by the split of London Terminals and London Thameslink fares.

On the south side it looks like only the London Terminals fares have been used as far as Blackfriars, and London Thameslink fares beyond. That means it is cheaper peak to travel to St Pancras than London Bridge, and cheaper off-peak to do the opposite.

 

[Silver Cobra]

At least National Rail Enquiries shows the 'correct' prices for the contactless fares between Stevenage and Kings Cross.

 

[Hadders]

The fares from London are correct but not the fares to London.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2025 ==

At least National Rail Enquiries shows the 'correct' prices for the contactless fares between Stevenage and Kings Cross.

But that isn’t what will be charged.

 

[MikeWh]

What a mess

That's one way of describing it.

I'm getting fares from the TfL single fare finder too, so I'm not sure what's wrong for @JonathanH. Have you tried a different browser, or clearing cache/cookies?

Anyway, the reverse journey button on my site (and ltfares) comes into it's own for things like this.