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The German ICE brand makes no sense

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Transilien

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At first, the ICE branding meant a specific type of train seprate from the traditional Intercity brand name. Now practically every former IC train in Germany is branded ICE even though many of them don't even go above 200km/h. Why does DB feel the need to call every major Intercity train in Germany ICE branding?
 
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At first, the ICE branding meant a specific type of train seprate from the traditional Intercity brand name. Now practically every former IC train in Germany is branded ICE even though many of them don't even go above 200km/h. Why does DB feel the need to call every major Intercity train in Germany ICE branding?
The trains are all capable of >200km/h running though.
ICE1 - 280km/h
ICE2 - 280km/h
ICE3 - 300km/h
ICE4 - 250/265km/h
ICE3neo - 320km/h
ICE-L - 230km/h
 

JamesT

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At first, the ICE branding meant a specific type of train seprate from the traditional Intercity brand name. Now practically every former IC train in Germany is branded ICE even though many of them don't even go above 200km/h. Why does DB feel the need to call every major Intercity train in Germany ICE branding?
Isn’t the difference between ICE and IC to do with the stopping pattern of the service rather than the speed of the train?
 

popeter45

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IC as a brand is staying but is now what used to be IR services, big que being the IC2 coaches being 160km/h Twindexx's

not exact but pretty much how DB has shifted recently

IR > IC
IC > ICE
ICE > ICE/ICE Sprinter
 

Austriantrain

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Isn’t the difference between ICE and IC to do with the stopping pattern of the service rather than the speed of the train?

It has always been primarily about the price difference between the two, so whenever new modern stock came around, Services became ICE in order to charge more.
 

johncrossley

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This is just another example of train category inflation. NS devalued the Intercity brand by converting the intermediate Sneltrein category to Intercity. Similarly SNCB/NMBS converted IR to IC or L.
 

EuxtonNeutral

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At first, the ICE branding meant a specific type of train seprate from the traditional Intercity brand name. Now practically every former IC train in Germany is branded ICE even though many of them don't even go above 200km/h. Why does DB feel the need to call every major Intercity train in Germany ICE branding?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Tbf ICEs between Köln and Dortmund have never done over 200kmh?
 

popeter45

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This is just another example of train category inflation. NS devalued the Intercity brand by converting the intermediate Sneltrein category to Intercity. Similarly SNCB/NMBS converted IR to IC or L.
in general NS is wierd with that is and what isnt Intercity/Sprinter, had trips where the Sprinter option was direct when Intercity terminated earlier so needed to change Trains
 

Amalie

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This is just another example of train category inflation. NS devalued the Intercity brand by converting the intermediate Sneltrein category to Intercity. Similarly SNCB/NMBS converted IR to IC or L.
There’s no price difference between a NS intercity or an NS sprinter service however. Besides the IC Direct and the ICE (used domestically) which require a supplement, you pay the same per-km rate regardless of (domestic) train type
 

Transilien

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The trains are all capable of >200km/h running though.
ICE1 - 280km/h
ICE2 - 280km/h
ICE3 - 300km/h
ICE4 - 250/265km/h
ICE3neo - 320km/h
ICE-L - 230km/h
They can do it, but they don’t have the infrastructure to do so most of the time. Germany is awful at building high speed railways. In my opinion it only really makes sense for the ICE 3neo family to be considered ICE as 300km/h is the equivalent of what most TGVs can do. The ICE train naming convention makes no sense too. The ICE4 is not a successor to the ICE3, rather it’s a successor to the IC1 loco hauled trains!
 
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Austriantrain

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They can do it, but they don’t have the infrastructure to do so most of the time. Germany is awful at building high speed railways. In my opinion it only really makes sense for the ICE 3neo family to be considered ICE as 300km/h is the equivalent of what most TGVs can do. The ICE train naming convention makes no sense too. The ICE4 is not a successor to the ICE3, rather it’s a successor to the IC1 loco hauled trains!

The ICE4 is above all a successor of ICE1+2. And I would see no reason why a 250 km/h-pathed train should be called ICE.
 

Fragezeichnen

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At first, the ICE branding meant a specific type of train seprate from the traditional Intercity brand name. Now practically every former IC train in Germany is branded ICE even though many of them don't even go above 200km/h. Why does DB feel the need to call every major Intercity train in Germany ICE branding?

ICE is a comfort category, not a speed category, the same as EuroCity, InterCity, D-Zug etc.

The main features which differentiate it from IC are:
  • On Board restaurant with at seat service
  • Wifi(IC2 has this but IC1 mostly didn't)
  • More Generous legroom
It is only railway enthusiasts that get hung up about the top speed of traction(and the in the case of the ICE-L, whether the power unit is permanently coupled to the train or not).

They can do it, but they don’t have the infrastructure to do so most of the time. Germany is awful at building high speed railways. In my opinion it only really makes sense for the ICE 3neo family to be considered ICE as 300km/h is the equivalent of what most TGVs can do. The ICE train naming convention makes no sense too. The ICE4 is not a successor to the ICE3, rather it’s a successor to the IC1 loco hauled trains!

This quote perfectly illustrates this obsession. According to Transilien, only the approved top speed of the traction matters, even if it never reaches it because there's only one short strectch of track in the country where it could. From a passenger perspective this makes no sense at all. The passenger should trust the operator to provide traction appropriate for the speeds feasible on the given route and stopping pattern.

Making direct comparisons to France is not really helpful because the ICE is not meant to be the equivalent of the TGV network, since Germany does not split it's network into "high speed" lines with special access conditions designed only for dedicated services and "non-high speed". All lines are accessible to all types of train. There are ICE services which use no new-build high speed line, and regional commuter services which run exclusively on new build high speed lines.
 
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nwales58

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Why does DB feel the need to call every major Intercity train in Germany ICE branding?
Ask them?

Travelling around on ICE 3, 4, 3neo and ICE1 (operating IC Niebüll Mole-Köln) I very much doubt the passenger notices differences other than size of restaurant area, mood lighting and trivia.

So why not have a consistent marketing name?

No but Köln to Frankfurt is often over 300kmh.
270 usually (250 for ICE 4). 300 was supposedly authorised for recovering from delays originally but I don’t recall seeing over 270 when on late services, has anyone recently?
 

nwales58

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265 for the 12/13-car ICE4s.
I don’t know the rules or timetabling but I’m on a 12 coach ICE 4 that only seemed to be 250 today (I assume the 265 was specified for this so maybe a 4 tightly pathed amongst 3s uses it), same yesterday, but don’t use it regularly nowadays.
 

rvdborgt

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I don’t know the rules or timetabling but I’m on a 12 coach ICE 4 that only seemed to be 250 today (I assume the 265 was specified for this so maybe a 4 tightly pathed amongst 3s uses it), same yesterday, but don’t use it regularly nowadays.
I'm not sure about the rules either, but earlier this year I was on an ICE4 between Cologne and Frankfurt running around 260.
 

E94

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Ask them?

Travelling around on ICE 3, 4, 3neo and ICE1 (operating IC Niebüll Mole-Köln) I very much doubt the passenger notices differences other than size of restaurant area, mood lighting and trivia.

So why not have a consistent marketing name?


270 usually (250 for ICE 4). 300 was supposedly authorised for recovering from delays originally but I don’t recall seeing over 270 when on late services, has anyone recently?
I had 300 a couple of years ago on a late running Frankfurt to Cologne service, which then lost any time made up by sitting at a signal in Porz for about 20 minutes.
 

Jamesrob637

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Ask them?

Travelling around on ICE 3, 4, 3neo and ICE1 (operating IC Niebüll Mole-Köln) I very much doubt the passenger notices differences other than size of restaurant area, mood lighting and trivia.

So why not have a consistent marketing name?


270 usually (250 for ICE 4). 300 was supposedly authorised for recovering from delays originally but I don’t recall seeing over 270 when on late services, has anyone recently?

I was on an ICE3 doing 300kmh on it pre pandemic but timings may have been altered somewhat since.
 

Austriantrain

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I was on an ICE3 doing 300kmh on it pre pandemic but timings may have been altered somewhat since.

It definitely is a 300 km/h line and I have experienced it. The high number of stops at Limburg and/or Montabaur probably precludes having paths where it can really be used though, which I think is also why throwing slower ICE4 into the mix is not an issue.
 

StephenHunter

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How many D-Zugs are there left now? For Germany, it seems to be just the Snälltåget trains as of 2024-2025.
 
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