Introduction of Mark 2Z/A/B/C stock

[AY1975]

As there are already threads on the introduction of Mark 2 air conditioned stock at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/introduction-of-mark-2-air-conditioned-stock.286812/ and on the introduction of Mark 3 stock on the West Coast Main Line at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/introduction-of-mk-3-stock-on-wcml.286705/ I thought how about a thread on the introduction of the older non-aircon Mark 2s, i.e. the vacuum braked Mark 2s (sometimes unofficially referred to as Mark 2Zs although AFAIK this was never an official designation) and the later air braked Mark 2As, 2Bs and 2Cs.

Can anyone remember when each type of non-aircon Mark 2 first entered service and on which routes they initially operated?

 

[hexagon789]

As there are already threads on the introduction of Mark 2 air conditioned stock at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/introduction-of-mark-2-air-conditioned-stock.286812/ and on the introduction of Mark 3 stock on the West Coast Main Line at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/introduction-of-mk-3-stock-on-wcml.286705/ I thought how about a thread on the introduction of the older non-aircon Mark 2s, i.e. the vacuum braked Mark 2s (sometimes unofficially referred to as Mark 2Zs although AFAIK this was never an official designation) and the later air braked Mark 2As, 2Bs and 2Cs.

Can anyone remember when each type of non-aircon Mark 2 first entered service and on which routes they initially operated?

Wide degree of overlap, as the various marks were delivered in different batches to often more than one region, but its easy enough to outline the main usage.

2Z - the first prototypes, Corridor Firsts went to the London Midland, Eastern and Southern Region for use in their best trains replacing Mk1 FKs. The production fleet went to the LMR for the WCML electrification.

2A - Eastern and Western Regions

2B - Western mainly, a small number of FKs went to the Eastern.

2C - delivered to upgrade the longer-distance WCML Anglo-Scottish workings to Glasgow but some appeared on Manchester/Liverpool too. Birmingham seemed to remain mostly Mk2Z/Mk1 mixed until the air-con era began. 30 BSO went to the Western for use with their Mk2Bs, there being no Mk2B BSO design.


There's a bit of simplification there, but hopefully helpful as a rough outline.

 

[SeanG]

Were some released in maroon or southern green? Was it common to see these working behind steam?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

2Z - the first prototypes, Corridor Firsts went to the London Midland, Eastern and Southern Region for use in their best trains replacing Mk1 FKs. The production fleet went to the LMR for the WCML electrification.

I can recall travelling to Liverpool in 1969 in what was then a new style of train. Perhaps a 2Z. It had the characteristic body style but with opening windows. Later that year I travelled to North Wales. That had compartments so still Mk1.

In NSE days, the Paddington to Oxford services had a mixture of older Mk1 coaches and slightly newer Mk2s . These still had the opening windows, so what type would those have been?

 

[JonathanH]

In NSE days, the Paddington to Oxford services had a mixture of older Mk1 coaches and slightly newer Mk2s . These still had the opening windows, so what type would those have been?

Paddington to Oxford used the initial build Mark 2s (referred to above as 2z), which retained vacuum brakes. When the Liverpool Street to Cambridge / Kings Lynn services ceased to be locomotive hauled, the initial Mark 2s which had been facelifted moved over to replace the initial Mark 2s previously in use.

Waterloo to Exeter at that time was air-braked Mark 2a and 2b stock.

 

[The exile]

Were some released in maroon or southern green? Was it common to see these working behind steam?

There were certainly some in green to be seen on Bournemouth line workings - presumably with a fair chance of being behind steam given how long it lasted.

 

[hexagon789]

There were certainly some in green to be seen on Bournemouth line workings - presumably with a fair chance of being behind steam given how long it lasted.

They also appeared on the Golden Arrow for a period.

Essentially they were for Boat Trains, which were generally the Southern Region's "best trains", so received the best and/or newest stock.

 

[Magdalia]

2Z - the first prototypes, Corridor Firsts went to the London Midland, Eastern and Southern Region for use in their best trains replacing Mk1 FKs.

Were some released in maroon or southern green?

The MarkII roll out started slowly, with the prototype FK in 1963 and two small lots of FKs in 1964. I think these were all maroon, except for the Southern allocation, which were green.

2A - Eastern and Western Regions

From an operational perspective the MarkIIas were a more significant change because they had air brakes. Their introduction on the Eastern and Western Regions is closely correlated with the fitting of dual auto air brake to the Deltics and Westerns respectively. BR Database and, for the Deltics, Napier Chronicles, have the dates, but not in a way that is easily assimilated. As there were no MarkII catering vehicles this also required MarkI catering vehicles to be fitted with air brakes.

The first air braked MarkIIa passenger train on the ECML was 0725 Newcastle-Kings Cross on 27 November 1967.

 

[30907]

There were certainly some in green to be seen on Bournemouth line workings - presumably with a fair chance of being behind steam given how long it lasted.

Think the original SR batch of 30(?) were all in green.

 

[hexagon789]

Think the original SR batch of 30(?) were all in green.

Twenty, if I've remembered the numbers correctly, 13387-13406

 

[sh24]

There is a great photo on here somewhere of a Western hauled train where the first 2 carriages are a Mark 2Z FK and a Hawksworth ex GWR coach!

 

[Taunton]

Think I recall the first air braked trains were on the ECML as limited formations of only 8 coaches, but hauled by Deltics and given reduced timings. They were advertised, possibly in the timetable itself, as "High Speed", and commonly referred to as Deltic+8. Only ran on London to Leeds/Newcastle. Later deliveries ran to Edinburgh as 11 coach formations.

The vacuum vehicles were more common user with existing stock. One standard use was on the Liverpool Pullman, which was half first class 1966-build Pullmans, and half regular second class vehicles. This early LMR build included a series of second class vehicles with 2+1 seating, so proper SO and not 2+2 TSO, intended for second class dining.

 

[edwin_m]

The vacuum vehicles were more common user with existing stock. One standard use was on the Liverpool Pullman, which was half first class 1966-build Pullmans, and half regular second class vehicles.

The WCML Pullman stock was an oddity in several ways. They were the only series to combine air conditioning and vacuum brakes, and although I believe based on the Mk2 bodyshell and regarded as Mk2 they were significantly different but never got their own suffix letter. Due to their special nature they stayed in WCML front line service much longer than other vacuum braked stock (replaced by Mk3b in about 1984) and created a minor headache for operators as they couldn't be hauled by an 87 (which were air brake only).

Did the Pullmans follow the Mk2z in production? If so they would have been the last vacuum brake coach design.

 

[Helvellyn]

The Mark 2 Pullmans being vacuum braked only were part of the reason the Liverpool Pullman was withdrawn in the mid-1970s. BR supposedly didn't have workshop capacity to convert them to air braked and with the introduction of the later build air-conditioned Mark 2s using the non air-conditioned 2Z second class stock on the mixed Liverpool Pullman when other services were all air-conditioned wasn't ideal (a similar issue existed on the East Coast where the Mark 1 derived Met Cam Pullmans were similarly non air-conditioned when compared to the Mark 2Ds, and then HSTs).

The ten remaining Mark 2 Pullmans not built with asbestos insulation were eventually converted to air brakes in 1986 for use on charter services (as the Lakeland Pullman). Even then though they could only be powered by AC electric locomotives, restricting their use. Hence why when eventually disposed of (to the Manchester Executive Railway Company) a Mark 2A BFK was converted to a generator van to provide the power supply for the Pullmans allowing their haulage by diesel locos as well.

 

[hexagon789]

The WCML Pullman stock was an oddity in several ways. They were the only series to combine air conditioning and vacuum brakes, and although I believe based on the Mk2 bodyshell and regarded as Mk2 they were significantly different but never got their own suffix letter. Due to their special nature they stayed in WCML front line service much longer than other vacuum braked stock (replaced by Mk3b in about 1984) and created a minor headache for operators as they couldn't be hauled by an 87 (which were air brake only).

Did the Pullmans follow the Mk2z in production? If so they would have been the last vacuum brake coach design.

The Irish Mk2Ds were also vacuum braked.

The Pullmans followed on from the 72 "prototype" Mk2 FKs.

 

[Magdalia]

Think I recall the first air braked trains were on the ECML as limited formations of only 8 coaches, but hauled by Deltics and given reduced timings. They were advertised, possibly in the timetable itself, as "High Speed", and commonly referred to as Deltic+8. Only ran on London to Leeds/Newcastle. Later deliveries ran to Edinburgh as 11 coach formations.

The reduced timings with 8 car trains were introduced in the March 1967 public timetable, with a footnote saying "limited accommodation, seats bookable in advance". For example, the 0725 from Newcastle, the first train to get air braked coaches in November 1967, arrived Kings Cross at 1115, whereas the first train from Newcastle in the 1966 timetable started at 0755 and got to Kings Cross at 1208. "High speed" in the public timetable was used from May 1968.

I have the May 1968 WTT and the following are shown as air braked:

High speed in the public timetable:

0745/1605 KX-Bradford
0755/1800 KX-Newcastle
1130/1555 KX-Harrogate

0700/1155 Bradford-KX
0730 Leeds-KX
0655/1645 Newcastle-KX
1620 Harrogate-KX

Other:

0800/1000/1600 KX-Edinburgh
0800/1000/1600 Edinburgh-KX

All were booked for Deltic haulage except for the 1605 KX-Bradford. The 1968 WTT does not give timing loads.

 

[Taunton]

. "High speed" in the public timetable was used from May 1968.

I

I don't think there was any "High Speed" beyond the existing 100mph limits anywhere, but the limited load helped acceleration and hill climbing, such as from Peterborough up to Stoke (Peterborough was still 20mph for nonstops over the reverse curves at the station, at the time), and the air brakes allowed faster approaches to stations.

There was an article in the Railway Magazine, maybe mid-1970s, by a footplate observer on a Class 47 intermediate turn from Leeds to London, which turned up with a Class 40. It was just driven with the controller right round all the way, but the loco was air braked by this time, and it commented on getting to station stops still doing 40mph approaching the platform end, and pulling up correctly, something impossible with vacuum, which was saving further minutes. The Mk 2a stock was dual heated, so the full loco power was at least available for traction.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I can recall travelling to Liverpool in 1969 in what was then a new style of train. Perhaps a 2Z. It had the characteristic body style but with opening windows. Later that year I travelled to North Wales. That had compartments so still Mk1.

In NSE days, the Paddington to Oxford services had a mixture of older Mk1 coaches and slightly newer Mk2s . These still had the opening windows, so what type would those have been?

Opening windows were fitted up to and including Mark 2c. (or mark 3b if you include the droplights in the doors!)

There were Mark 2 coaches with compartments, but only in First Class

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Dec 2025 ==

[initial SR batch] Twenty, if I've remembered the numbers correctly, 13387-13406

You do - confirmed in "Longworth"

 

[AY1975]

Paddington to Oxford used the initial build Mark 2s (referred to above as 2z), which retained vacuum brakes. When the Liverpool Street to Cambridge / Kings Lynn services ceased to be locomotive hauled, the initial Mark 2s which had been facelifted moved over to replace the initial Mark 2s previously in use.

As I recall at least by the 1980s Paddington to Oxford, Banbury and Newbury loco-hauled trains were often formed of a mixture of Mark 1s and 2Zs.

Also, I believe that Liverpool Street to Norwichs and Harwich boat trains were mostly 2Zs at least by the mid to late 1970s, until replaced by Mark 2 aircons in about 1980. I presume the 2Zs used on Paddington-Oxford and Liverpool Street-Norwich had been displaced from the West Coast Main Line by the introduction of Mark 2 aircons.

 

[Merle Haggard]

There is a great photo on here somewhere of a Western hauled train where the first 2 carriages are a Mark 2Z FK and a Hawksworth ex GWR coach!

Sorry to be late; but I travelled on the overnight paddington - West Wales service in 1968 and its formation included a Hawksworth (in which naturally I travelled) coupled next to an XP64 - with the stiff two part doors, normal width + quarter width hinged. Overnight trains with low usage (two sets, one each way each night) were used for the oddities, it seems.

Think the original SR batch of 30(?) were all in green.

I saw one, still in plain green, at the front of a Deltic hauled Up express when spending the night on York station in July 1968.

A Mk 2Z was tried out in a Cobbler set soon after the working was introduced but the daily mileage (about 132!) was insufficient to keep the batteries charged so the forced air ventilation didn't work - it was cold! Surprised the same problem didn't occur on the Oxford _ Paddington NSE commuter trains

 

[Beebman]

As I recall at least by the 1980s Paddington to Oxford, Banbury and Newbury loco-hauled trains were often formed of a mixture of Mark 1s and 2Zs.

Also, I believe that Liverpool Street to Norwichs and Harwich boat trains were mostly 2Zs at least by the mid to late 1970s, until replaced by Mark 2 aircons in about 1980. I presume the 2Zs used on Paddington-Oxford and Liverpool Street-Norwich had been displaced from the West Coast Main Line by the introduction of Mark 2 aircons.

I was a commuter on the route in the 1980s and the most frequent formations I can remember seeing had Mk2Z 1st class coaches (either 2 FKs or a FK+BFK) in the middle of a rake of Mk1 2nd class vehicles but there was at least a couple of all-2Z rakes.

Also just to mention that Harwich boat trains in the mid to late 70s often included a couple of former 2nd class Met Camm Pullmans in use as 1st class accomodation.

 

[The exile]

A Mk 2Z was tried out in a Cobbler set soon after the working was introduced but the daily mileage (about 132!) was insufficient to keep the batteries charged so the forced air ventilation didn't work - it was cold! Surprised the same problem didn't occur on the Oxford _ Paddington NSE commuter trains

How many of the NSE Oxford / Newbury turns were peak only, though? A daily mileage of only 130 suggests little use between the peaks.

 

[Merle Haggard]

How many of the NSE Oxford / Newbury turns were peak only, though? A daily mileage of only 130 suggests little use between the peaks.

At that time the Cobbler set concerned ran Up in the morning and Down in the evening, stabling outside the Down Side Shed during the day. I thought that the W.R. sets were similarly only used once each way but might well be wrong.

 

[The exile]

At that time the Cobbler set concerned ran Up in the morning and Down in the evening, stabling outside the Down Side Shed during the day. I thought that the W.R. sets were similarly only used once each way but might well be wrong.

Certainly in the mid to late 80s there were express NSE services to both Oxford and Newbury throughout the day.

 

[Beebman]

At that time the Cobbler set concerned ran Up in the morning and Down in the evening, stabling outside the Down Side Shed during the day. I thought that the W.R. sets were similarly only used once each way but might well be wrong.

ISTR that there was a single longer rake (13 coaches) on the WR that was used for my regular evening train from Paddington at 18:13 but it was only used on that service plus one in the opposite direction in the morning.

 

[Acathater]

Prior to the arrival of the Pendolinos, during the 90's there was a regular early-evening NSE liveried early mk2 set which ran a Euston relief service north through Lancaster, I think as far as Carlisle. I can't remember if it was all weekdays or just Fridays, though probably the latter. Presumably one of the Northampton sets?

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Mk1's were my preferred ride for many years, but the Mk2 a/b/c were a welcome upgrade from steamed up, dripping wet windows in Mk 1 compo's back in the day. Not a fan of Mk2 d/e/f, or any other enclosed (ie AC) carriage type to be honest. Like to have access to a bit of fresh air.

Something from a run to Kings Lynn back in '85, which I may have posted before?

 

[Merle Haggard]

Prior to the arrival of the Pendolinos, during the 90's there was a regular early-evening NSE liveried early mk2 set which ran a Euston relief service north through Lancaster, I think as far as Carlisle. I can't remember if it was all weekdays or just Fridays, though probably the latter. Presumably one of the Northampton sets?

Definitely not a Northampton Cobbler set, they remained 100% Mk1 until replaced by 321's, (Im referring to sets in NSE livery, there was a morning service that was an Inter City set working otherwise ECS Oxley - Euston).

 

[Acathater]

Definitely not a Northampton Cobbler set, they remained 100% Mk1 until replaced by 321's, (Im referring to sets in NSE livery, there was a morning service that was an Inter City set working otherwise ECS Oxley - Euston).

This may have had some mk1's in it, but was certainly mainly mk2 - and yes it was in NSE livery

 

[Sun Chariot]

The Granite City" Railtour from Euston to Aberdeen on the 3rd September 1966.
Two original Mk2 (vac-only) TSOs were the second and third carriages behind Gresley V2 60836. Two shiny blue and grey Mk2 stock and filthy Brunswick green V2!
Two stunning mono photos appeared in a Waverley Route book I've long-since given away.
A colour photo is on Flickr (David Burrell); others may exist.