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Regional Variances in Ticket Prices

With a finite pot of money to spend, should a PTE subsidise fares or buy new trains?

  • Subsidise fares

    Votes: 14 38.9%
  • Buy new trains

    Votes: 22 61.1%

  • Total voters
    36
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northwichcat

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I must admit, I think the taxpayers of Leeds still get a pretty good deal from their (if we haven't been forced to flog em yet) 155's, even though they usually end up on cross-boundary services.

WY Metro don't own any rolling stock now. It was sold to leasing companies earlier in the year as part of the governments budget cuts.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The non existance of cheap advance fares with seat reservations is not a problem for Northerns shorter routes but it is for anyone wanting to make long distance journeys.

I think there should be Advance fares between a lot of different Northern services e.g. Buxton to Southport, Macclesfield to Blackpool, Wigan to Bradford etc.

I don't think Northern could do seat reservations without first getting rid of 142s because they turn up everywhere <( (except lines they aren't cleared for) and there's no where to put a reservation ticket on a bus seat.
 
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exile

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How about this for a price difference:-

London Travelcard zones 1 to 6 = £2,016 for a year
Paris Navigo zones 1 to 5 = 1,125 Euros for a year
Berlin zones ABC - 848 Euros for a year
 

yorksrob

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WY Metro don't own any rolling stock now. It was sold to leasing companies earlier in the year as part of the governments budget cuts.

I'ts a shame really. But they do still seem to operate around the Leeds area at least.
 

WatcherZero

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Part of the sales conditions was that they had to remain in the area until the end of the Northern franchise or the end of Northerns stock lease, I forget which.

Can I just point out that the PTE's have no control of the money they give in subsidy, i.e. the PTE Rail Grant, they are just intermediaries in the chain from Dft to Toc. They have to just pass it on to the toc's to subsidise discounted tickets minus a small administration cut. If they want new stock or new routes/strengthened services they have to pay for it themselves from other funding streams such as council tax.
 

Chris B

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How about this for a price difference:-

London Travelcard zones 1 to 6 = £2,016 for a year
Paris Navigo zones 1 to 5 = 1,125 Euros for a year
Berlin zones ABC - 848 Euros for a year

And what about costs?....I bet the UK unions have won far larger salary rises?...they have to be paid for!
 

yorksrob

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Part of the sales conditions was that they had to remain in the area until the end of the Northern franchise or the end of Northerns stock lease, I forget which.

Can I just point out that the PTE's have no control of the money they give in subsidy, i.e. the PTE Rail Grant, they are just intermediaries in the chain from Dft to Toc. They have to just pass it on to the toc's. If they want new stock or new routes/strengthened services they have to pay for it themselves from other funding streams such as council tax.

Frankly, they should kick up a big fuss if the stock is taken away - even after the end of the Northern stock lease.
 

WestCoast

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How about this for a price difference:-

London Travelcard zones 1 to 6 = £2,016 for a year
Paris Navigo zones 1 to 5 = 1,125 Euros for a year
Berlin zones ABC - 848 Euros for a year

You can buy unlimited travel on all DB trains (only very few exceptions) for 3,800 euros a year. Yes, the railways are treated as a public service much more so than in the UK.

And what about costs?....I bet the UK unions have won far larger salary rises?...they have to be paid for!

Staff play a very valuable role on the railways, however are the salaries of rail staff really of concern to the passenger? That's between the staff and employer, if the employees are unhappy they have the right to take action through various means. It's clear that average salaries vary between countries, and you are not going to be able to avoid that.

Ryanair's cabin crews are treated rather harsly (and rely on commission to top-up their salaries), but that doesn't stop 73 million people flying with them and more staff continually seeking employment with the company. They don't even have a union.
 
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Greenback

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And what about costs?....I bet the UK unions have won far larger salary rises?...they have to be paid for!

Yes, Uk train crew salaries have risen because of privatisation. Yet staff costs represent only a small amount of the operall costs of the privatised system.
 

Chris B

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You reckon? Any stats out there? Would expect it ti be a very large monority portion, over 35%
 

142094

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Frankly, they should kick up a big fuss if the stock is taken away - even after the end of the Northern stock lease.

I know a couple of staff in the rail team at Metro and they'll be kicking up a big fuss if it does happen. Plus I bet a few people in the Ilkley area with the right 'connections' will do so too.
 
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Can I just point out that the PTE's have no control of the money they give in subsidy, i.e. the PTE Rail Grant, they are just intermediaries in the chain from Dft to Toc. They have to just pass it on to the toc's to subsidise discounted tickets minus a small administration cut. If they want new stock or new routes/strengthened services they have to pay for it themselves from other funding streams such as council tax.

I was unaware of that, thanks. So, how are the numbers for the discounted fares arrived at? They vary widely between areas, presumably based on local conditions (congestion risk, rail capacity etc) and the PTEs must have some input to this as they are the ones close to the issues and able to give an informed view.
 

WatcherZero

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Firstly entitlements, free travel for disabled passengers, free travel for students, half travel for pensioners, make up around half of the total grant, this is compiled by statistics from the Toc and the PTE (half fare for children is borne solely by the Toc).

Then you have additional non-franchise specified routes which the PTE has persuaded the government to finance or increased peak time frequencies on congested routes, sunday services, etc.. next you have small station improvement schemes totaling a couple of million which they do have control over. Then theres a cut of around 2% the PTE takes to finance the monitoring and support rail services within its area.

Then you also have the base offpeak fare subsidy per passenger mile/km/Or Minimum Revenue guarentee from the signed franchise agreement before tocs franchise premiums are calculated and paid back to government, for shire counties this is around 1/3rd and for PTE rail corridors its 50% (and probably where you see the most price differential in non-concessionary ticket prices originate).

Alltogether TfGM gives Northern Rail around £78m of its £300m public subsidy.
 
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yorkie

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It isn't "about the same distance". Oxford to London 63.5 miles, Stirling to Edinburgh is 36.5.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Why compare times - it's more logical to compare distances. Bishop's Stortford to Cambridge is 25.5 miles, Manchester to Disley is 12.5 miles.

So, Bishop's to Cambridge is 28p per mile and Manchester to Disley is 40p a mile, which turns the argument on its head.

That is, if a 30 mile trip takes 40 minutes I'd expect to pay more than for a 20 mile trip taking 50 minutes.


agreed. Most 'normal' passengers want a quicker journey. The op want to spend more time on a train i think in which case I recommend buying rovers or rangers or stick to local trains.


The original post is dart if you compare say York to whitby with York to doncaster. The cdr to whitby is cheaper than the cdr to donny. But high speed lines command a premium.

It's about supply and demand.

If you want a long time on a train for less money then take advantage of tge routeing guide , avoid high speed lines and take direct trains via convoluted routes eg southport to chester via Manchester or York to Leeds via harrogate or one of the many on South West trains. Many more examples exist.

The original argument is fundamentaly flawed because our pricing structure doesn't work like that and time isn't a sensible criteria for most people.
 
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The original post is dart if you compare say York to whitby with York to doncaster. The cdr to whitby is cheaper than the cdr to donny. But high speed lines command a premium.

It's about supply and demand.

If you want a long time on a train for less money then take advantage of tge routeing guide , avoid high speed lines and take direct trains via convoluted routes eg southport to chester via Manchester or York to Leeds via harrogate or one of the many on South West trains. Many more examples exist.

The original argument is fundamentaly flawed because our pricing structure doesn't work like that and time isn't a sensible criteria for most people.

I assume you mean daft... and it's a long time since I was called daft, and that was also by a Yorkshireman.

Flawed argument? I wasn't arguing for or against anything, I was just highlighting differences in the fare structure within our small nation. One of the reasons I decided to try the Northern network out for myself the other day was to experience the supposedly crammed trains (I moved south before Northern experienced its recent 34% growth in footfall) and compare them with the sardine tins that are rush hour trains on the West Anglia route. It seemed to me that the trains were about equally crowded, suggesting that the "supply and demand" is about the same on all the routes that I tried.

Most normal, non-railway oriented passengers won't even know what the routeing guide is. They just want a quick, reasonably comfortable, affordable journey from A to B and that's what the railway should be 100% focussed on delivering.
 

exile

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Despite the examples not really demonstrating it, it is true that fares are higher in the London area than around other conurbations. Watford to London, annual season, is twice the price of Warrington to Liverpool and it's just about the same distance. It's basically "what the market will bear". Around London the fares can be higher and the trains are still full at peak times. Cars dominate commuting in cities outside London, and even buses carry more people into city centres than do trains.
 

northwichcat

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Watford to London, annual season, is twice the price of Warrington to Liverpool and it's just about the same distance.

London is an expensive place to travel to or through by train unless you're travelling on an Advance ticket. It's much cheaper to do Manchester-Edinburgh than to do Manchester-London even though Manchester-London is a shorter distance. In fact at peak times it's not just cheaper to do Manchester-Edinburgh, you'd have enough change left over to do a similar distance journey to somewhere else.

OK someone in Warrington gets a cheaper commute because of that but then the person living in Watford doesn't have to work in London. In a lot of cases they probably work in London because the salary offered minus the annual season ticket cost is much higher than a job in the Watford vicinity. In the case of Warrington it's a similar salary whether you accept work in Manchester, Liverpool, Crewe or Wigan.
 

exile

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Also, the "gradient" in housing costs forces people in the London area to live far from the centre, whilst houses in the likes of Warrington or St Helens aren't much different to those in central Liverpool so there's no particular need to live far from work. So in London you have to pay high housing costs, or live farther out in cheaper housing, face a huge commuting cost and have to get up at stupid o'clock to get to work.....
 

yorksrob

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Also, the "gradient" in housing costs forces people in the London area to live far from the centre, whilst houses in the likes of Warrington or St Helens aren't much different to those in central Liverpool so there's no particular need to live far from work. So in London you have to pay high housing costs, or live farther out in cheaper housing, face a huge commuting cost and have to get up at stupid o'clock to get to work.....

Not necessarily true - certainly according to my experience. When I was looking for a house, there were a number of places in Leeds that I would have considered buying. Sadly they happenned to be about 25 grand too expensive than I could afford, so I had to look a bit further. As a result, I commute on the regional railway. Londoners do have large costs to contend with but then again, so do those of us in the other cities relatively speaking.
 

tbtc

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Well, Look North tonight had an article about a ten percent increase in West Yorkshire train fares (5% RPI plus 3% to allow reduced Govt subsidy plus 2% to cover the cost of West Yorkshire getting six new trains - this is me quoting the BBC, not my version of events)...

...so maybe our fares will be expensive enough soon so we can get some Pacer replacements? Oh, wait...
 

NightatLaira

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An interesting exception to this is the "London is always more expensive debate" is this anomaly with the Off Peaks:

Edinburgh to Derby £107

Edinburgh to London (33% further by distance) £113

On super-long distance - it's all a bit topsy-turvy
 

yorkie

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An interesting exception to this is the "London is always more expensive debate" is this anomaly with the Off Peaks:

Edinburgh to Derby £107

Edinburgh to London (33% further by distance) £113

On super-long distance - it's all a bit topsy-turvy
I don't get it; where's the anomaly?

A ticket that is valid on any train from Edinburgh to Derby is 107gbp. A ticket that is heavily restricted from Edinburgh to London is 113gbp (that is actually called Super Off Peak), with the Off Peak costing rather more than this, and a ticket to travel on any train costing even more than that.

It's always been the case that once you get to really long distance, the old Savers didn't actually increase that much in price and become better value.
 

Chris B

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Indeed, look at the prices London to Plymouth & Penzance. Fir two more hours oj an HST, whats the difference in fares?
 

northwichcat

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Also, the "gradient" in housing costs forces people in the London area to live far from the centre, whilst houses in the likes of Warrington or St Helens aren't much different to those in central Liverpool so there's no particular need to live far from work. So in London you have to pay high housing costs, or live farther out in cheaper housing, face a huge commuting cost and have to get up at stupid o'clock to get to work.....

I have to agree with Yorksrob. There's lot of variation in house prices within a few miles. Using the Warrington example given earlier, Padgate is a cheap to live in run down area, while nearby Daresbury and Lymm are more affluent areas.

If you have a job in Alderley Edge there are literally only 3 roads with the standard 3 bed terrace houses. If you can't get one of them then it would be much cheaper to live in Stockport or Crewe, even after the commute. And no salaries in Alderley Edge aren't higher than those in Stockport and Crewe.

Flawed argument? I wasn't arguing for or against anything, I was just highlighting differences in the fare structure within our small nation. One of the reasons I decided to try the Northern network out for myself the other day was to experience the supposedly crammed trains (I moved south before Northern experienced its recent 34% growth in footfall) and compare them with the sardine tins that are rush hour trains on the West Anglia route. It seemed to me that the trains were about equally crowded, suggesting that the "supply and demand" is about the same on all the routes that I tried.

Most normal, non-railway oriented passengers won't even know what the routeing guide is. They just want a quick, reasonably comfortable, affordable journey from A to B and that's what the railway should be 100% focussed on delivering.

For Bishops Stortford to Cambridge I noticed you used the time for the stopping service opposed to the semi-fast. However, there are still some issues with your comparisons:

Chester and Liverpool appear a long distance apart by train because the train stops every couple of miles - a lot of towns served by Merseyrail have multiple stations. If there was a Chester-Liverpool service calling at only Birkenhead then it would look an unbalanced comparison. If you buy a ticket between Bishops Stortford and Cambridge you have the option of travelling on an express or a stopper. People are usually happy to pay more for a faster journey which is why they pay £6 for a return rail journey opposed to £4 for an all day bus ticket.

There's some other points about TOCs serving London which I don't think anyone has made:

1. The South East has more rail lines than anywhere else in the UK. This means you are more likely to be able to go almost directly from A to B by train. There are quite a few examples I can think of in the North where the distance by rail is almost double that of the road. If you have to go 50 miles to get to somewhere 25 miles away you're not exactly going to travel by train unless the pricing is competitive with the 25 miles by road, not another 50 miles journey.

2. In the North we have more balanced commuter flows. There's no such thing as a quiet Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds or a Liverpool-Manchester-Sheffield service in the morning peak because commuters are going in both directions. On the other hand in London you get 12 carriage trains leaving London between 6 and 8am with not even enough passengers to fill a 153, but on the return working all 12 carriages are full. So really the higher fares in London are needed to subside all the carting around empty space on the counter-peak flow workings
 

NightatLaira

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I don't get it; where's the anomaly?

A ticket that is valid on any train from Edinburgh to Derby is 107gbp. A ticket that is heavily restricted from Edinburgh to London is 113gbp (that is actually called Super Off Peak), with the Off Peak costing rather more than this, and a ticket to travel on any train costing even more than that.

It's always been the case that once you get to really long distance, the old Savers didn't actually increase that much in price and become better value.

Sorry, I meant:

Edinburgh - Derby (Off Peak) £107.90
Edinburgh - Derby (Anytime) £104.00 (and yet we'd expect this to be more expensive than an Off Peak)

Edinburgh - London (Super Off Peak) £113.60
Edinburgh - London (Anytime) £146.00
 

yorkie

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Sorry, I meant:

Edinburgh - Derby (Off Peak) £107.90
Edinburgh - Derby (Anytime) £104.00 (and yet we'd expect this to be more expensive than an Off Peak)
I still don't get it, and the 107.90 fare you quote is an Off Peak Return valid effectively on any train, the 104.00 you quote is an Anytime Single, the Anytime Return being 208.00.

The only people who need buy an Anytime rather than an Off Peak for this journey are PRIV holders (75% off the Anytime fare) or people buying on board (where there was opportunity to pay at their origin station).
 

NightatLaira

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I still don't get it, and the 107.90 fare you quote is an Off Peak Return valid effectively on any train, the 104.00 you quote is an Anytime Single, the Anytime Return being 208.00.

The only people who need buy an Anytime rather than an Off Peak for this journey are PRIV holders (75% off the Anytime fare) or people buying on board (where there was opportunity to pay at their origin station).

Ok, I see what you mean - point taken.
 
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