Football

[Haywain]

yeah - they look terrible. Imagine having to go from London to Bristol down the motorway!

In the North division Bedford are an outlier, just as Darlington are, in comparison to the bulk of the clubs but motorways exist in other directions too as you well know. The fact is that the dividsion you're in isn't the 'north of England' division, it's the northern half of the 48 clubs division, and the line has to be drawn somewhere.

 

[DarloRich]

In the North division Bedford are an outlier, just as Darlington are, in comparison to the bulk of the clubs but motorways exist in other directions too as you well know. The fact is that the dividsion you're in isn't the 'north of England' division, it's the northern half of the 48 clubs division, and the line has to be drawn somewhere.

The teams south of Alfreton should be in a different division. They aren't because tin pot teams like Spennymoor refused to take promotion for years meaning the debatable zone got further and further south. It isn't going to change, but it should.

That or change the name to hide the lunacy!

 

[SuspectUsual]

Oddly enough, seeing as they've been mentioned a bit in this discussion, if you draw a line across England so that half the population is north of it and half south, that line goes pretty much through Bedford

England's North/South Divide Based Only On Population - Brilliant Maps

Map created by reddit user u/willtkred

brilliantmaps.com

(Link to a page on the rather excellent Brilliant Maps website)

 

[Haywain]

The teams south of Alfreton should be in a different division.

Why Alfreton, is that where the north starts?

or change the name to hide the lunacy!

What would you suggest?

 

[Jimini]

I know this corner of the forum generally talks about non-league games, but I've not long got back from our (Fulham's) game against Manchester City.

That. Was. Bonkers.

In all of my 45 years supporting Fulham from the top tier down to those dark days in the third tier in the '90s, I don't think I've seen a game like that in a long time! It's quite surreal to feel quite buoyant despite shipping five goals and losing the match!

Typical BBC biased match report here.

Erling Haaland became the quickest player to reach 100 goals in Premier League history on a night when Manchester City ramped up pressure on leaders Arsenal by fending off Fulham's impressive fightback.

Norway international Haaland got his landmark goal in the 17th minute of Tuesday's game at Craven Cottage, firing in first time from Jeremy Doku's cross.

It meant he reached the century in 111 league games, 13 fewer than it took previous record holder Alan Shearer.

The goal also ended a mini drought for Haaland, having gone three consecutive games without scoring. It was his 15th goal in 14 league games this season but was just a taste of what was to come.

Haaland got the assist for Manchester City's second, slipping the ball through for Tijjani Reijnders to coolly lift the ball over Bernd Leno and into the back of the net.

Leeds came back from 2-0 down to level 2-2 against Pep Guardiola's side at the weekend before Phil Foden got a late winner, and the in-form forward must have thought he had quashed thoughts of a repeat of that when he got City's third.

A fantastic header by Emile Smith Rowe moments later gave Fulham some hope at 3-1 down, but Foden got his fourth goal in two games soon after the break, smartly firing home at the near post from Haaland's ball.

Doku's shot then deflected in off Sander Berge to put City in a seemingly unassailable 5-1 lead.

But Fulham would not give in and Alex Iwobi curled in their second from 20 yards to signal a continuing threat to City, before substitute Samuel Chukwueze had the home side dreaming of an incredible comeback.

First, he drove in from a cross, before placing a neat finish into the back of the net six minutes later.

Momentum was with Fulham as home fans roared them on and City's followers watched on nervously in the away end, and Josh King had a shot cleared off the line in the final seconds.

But City held on to secure a win that means they are just two points behind Arsenal, albeit having played a game more, with the Gunners hosting Brentford on Wednesday.

Fulham, meanwhile, are six points above the relegation zone but have played a game more than those sides below them.

We go again against Palace on Sunday arvo (and boo to engineering works meaning the Reading <> Waterloo trains aren't calling at Putney!).

 

[Wallsendmag]

Why Alfreton, is that where the north starts?

i've always thought it was Chester-le -Street

 

[D1511]

i've always thought it was Chester-le -Street

From my perspective, the north starts around Perth.....

 

[DarloRich]

Why Alfreton, is that where the north starts?

if you like. It sounds northern!

I simply want the "debatable zone" moved south. Having Needham Market & Bishop Stortford & Bedford & Oxford in the north section is insane. They shouldn't be asked to travel to Darlington or Southport when teams much closer to them are in the southern section.

Hemel Hempstead, allegedly, avoided playing in the north section because thier ground is a touch further south than Oxford. They should be in the same league.

i've always thought it was Chester-le -Street

Gateshead surely?

What would you suggest?

Surely : North and Midlands and South, East and West . My favourite of "The fa couldn't organise a party in a brewery.co.uk league" wont be accepted by the blazers

Regardless, you will never convince me that Bedford, Oxford, Peterborough or Kings Lynn should be in a "North" league even if they are personally advantageous to me!

 

[Haywain]

I simply want the "debatable zone" moved south. Having Needham Market & Bishop Stortford & Bedford & Oxford in the north section is insane.

So we have a 30 team southern division and 18 in the north? The only solution is more 'northern' teams getting to that level, which isn't possible with the current structure and the current population distribution.

They shouldn't be asked to travel to Darlington or Southport when teams much closer to them are in the southern section.

That will apply to some teams no matter where the line is drawn. If you move the line to Alfreton, should they be expected to travel to Torquay and Dover?

you will never convince me

Fine, I am happy to accept that you are wrong.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Of course there’s also an argument that the amount of travel in the current NLN and NLS is a stepping stone between the national league above and the regional ones beneath, the same way that the standard of football is (or should be, luckily it’s a while since Halifax played at that level) should be in between the two

 

[DarloRich]

So we have a 30 team southern division and 18 in the north?

suits me

That will apply to some teams no matter where the line is drawn. If you move the line to Alfreton, should they be expected to travel to Torquay and Dover?

If the FA wont fix the league they should fix the travel costs. Give each club in NLS/NLN an £X contribution per season towards travel costs.

Fine, I am happy to accept that you are wrong.

The thing is I am not. Asking part time teams with part time budgets to travel 350 miles each way is mad. You know that. You may be prepared to overlook the lunacy. I am not. I don't understand why you defend them.

I said right at the start this wont change. I will complain about it at every opportunity

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Dec 2025 ==

I know this corner of the forum generally talks about non-league games, but I've not long got back from our (Fulham's) game against Manchester City.

That. Was. Bonkers.

In all of my 45 years supporting Fulham from the top tier down to those dark days in the third tier in the '90s, I don't think I've seen a game like that in a long time! It's quite surreal to feel quite buoyant despite shipping five goals and losing the match!

it is like something from Football Manager - an incredible game - insane

 

[Haywain]

Asking part time teams with part time budgets to travel 350 miles each way is mad.

No-one is doing that are they? Darlington to Bedford is barely half of that. And yet you'd be happy for Bedford to go to Torquay which is further.

 

[DarloRich]

No-one is doing that are they?

I should have said round trip - which from Darlo to Bedford is 390 miles.

And yet you'd be happy for Bedford to go to Torquay which is further.

it is odd that Hemel Hempstead aren't begging to be placed in NLN if they have such terribly long journeys to make every other week in NLS. Must be awful for them.

As for Bedford: Torquay would be a one off for them. The majority of the teams in NLS are closer than the NLN teams are. Yes, there is a band of clubs in the "debatable zone" (being roughly a band between Merthyr & Kings Lynn) who are close by but there are a cluster of north east teams and a cluster of Manchester/Liverpool area clubs all of which are a decent drive from the south.

Mind you, Merthyr seem to be making the distances work for them results wise. I guess it helps if most sides turn up at your ground after a marathon journey from civilisation!

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Workington and Lowestoft have both been in NLN at some point or other - as have Blyth Spartans and Bishops Stortford. Not to mention South Shields, Gloucester and Hereford.

One of the NPL's second tier divisions, NPL-1-Midlands actually feeds into the Southern League Premier Central, give or take the odd regional adjustment. How silly is that?

The problem is the non-league pyramid is that the FA has made it far too flat with most leagues being 1 up plus play-offs and 4 down. 4 down from a 22-club league is too many.

You can't do much about NLN & NLS - there is no scope for more clubs to go up to NL national. But further down the pyramid you should have three leagues feeding into two, not four into two. This is how it used to be. There are now too many step 4 leagues. The non-league pyramid needs more layers.

 

[Peeled Apples]

Wolves 0-1 Forest
The only positive tonight is that I'm now having my first journey on a 730 on the trent valley.

 

[side effect]

Imagine how empty the London Stadium will be if they are relegated. I cant see thousands of tourists going to see West Ham v ???. Be interesting though if Millwall stay down and the Hammers go down. Imagine also how many have jacked it in since they moved.

 

[1D54]

Are WHU home games currently frequented by thousands of tourists? Chelsea, Tottenham and Arsenal it ain't.

 

[Darandio]

Are WHU home games currently frequented by thousands of tourists? Chelsea, Tottenham and Arsenal it ain't.

Sounds like the ramblings of a bitter rival to me.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm not really sure what you can do about the non-league pyramid. If you divide the country in half by population then the line pretty much goes through the Watford Gap, so you're always going to have more southern teams in the pyramid.

Step 3 is where the issue is, for me, with three southern leagues and one northern league. It's actually a bit better at step 4, with three northern leagues and five southern leagues.

Step 3 really is the weak spot. You have Halesowen, Redditch, Stourbridge, and Bromsgrove in the Southern League Central but then you have Rushall and Hednesford in the Northern Premier League. It's 20 miles from Rushall's ground to Stourbridge but instead Rushall get to play away games at places like Hebburn or Workington and Stourbridge get to travel to Bury St Edmunds.

Could be worse: over in the Southern Premier South, also at step 3, Berkhamsted and St Albans get to travel to Plymouth and Tiverton: just the 490 mile round trip from Berkhamsted to Plymouth.

It seems to be pot luck where the Midlands teams end up if they get promoted; Kidderminster and Hereford are in NLN but if they got relegated they'd likely go down into the Southern League Central.

Genuinely not sure what you can do about it. You wouldn't want more than four leagues at step 3 and clubs really do need to be allocated to a step in the pyramid based on ability not on location.

 

[Haywain]

Are WHU home games currently frequented by thousands of tourists?

All Premier League clubs benefit from an element of football tourism, particularly the London clubs with bigger stadiums.

Step 3 is where the issue is, for me, with three southern leagues and one northern league.

That's 'Southern' leagues in name only - the odd splits are because the FA wanted to split the administration of the new divisions amongst existing leagues. The Southern Premier Central and Northern Premier Division One Midlands are, effectively, a Midlands League.

 

[Tetchytyke]

That's 'Southern' leagues in name only

To an extent, the Southern Central is more of a southern Midlands league. But even then, places like Bury St Edmunds and Sudbury are certainly not in the Midlands.

It's all a complete mess in that area. St Neots are in the Northern Premier League Midlands but St Ives (despite being further north) are in the Southern League Premier Central.

Still, none of it really affects FC Isle of Man. They're crap this year and I fully expect them to get relegated back to step six.

 

[THC]

All Premier League clubs benefit from an element of football tourism, particularly the London clubs with bigger stadiums.

That's 'Southern' leagues in name only - the odd splits are because the FA wanted to split the administration of the new divisions amongst existing leagues. The Southern Premier Central and Northern Premier Division One Midlands are, effectively, a Midlands League.

Exactly. The English non-league pyramid is a perfect one from steps 1-5, consisting of one, two, four, eight and sixteen divisions respectively. The administration of leagues at steps 3 and 4 is overseen by what are now known as the 'Trident Leagues', which causes this confusion - the Southern League overseeing two Step 3 divisions, for instance.

THC

 

[Haywain]

St Neots are in the Northern Premier League Midlands but St Ives (despite being further north) are in the Southern League Premier Central.

And if one was promoted and the other relegated they would just swap places because that's how those divisions are supposed to work. The clue is in the words central and midlands.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Dec 2025 ==

places like Bury St Edmunds and Sudbury are certainly not in the Midlands.

Bury St Edmunds is on pretty much the same line of latitude as Northampton. Is Northampton not in the Midlands?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Bury St Edmunds is on pretty much the same line of latitude as Northampton. Is Northampton not in the Midlands?

Now there's a question. It all gets rather subjective.

Personally I would describe Northampton as being in the south east not in the midlands. Norwich is further north than Wolverhampton but I wouldn't describe it as being in the midlands. But then again I'd describe Worcester as being in the midlands even though it's further south than Northampton.

 

[side effect]

I just cant bring myself to watch any game these days on tv. What i do sadly enjoy is the content creators losing it when their teams lose a game.

At the moment I see at Arsenal there are some old school fans who hate Arteta believing he cant rotate and runs players into the ground and then complains about injuries. Like I said I dont Arsenal but would be interested to see who is Arteta in or out.

Have a blessed day

 

[Tetchytyke]

At the moment I see at Arsenal there are some old school fans who hate Arteta believing he cant rotate and runs players into the ground and then complains about injuries. Like I said I dont Arsenal but would be interested to see who is Arteta in or out.

It's not the old school Arsenal fans who are banging on about that at all.

It's Arsenal's more recent "global fanbase" who absolutely lose their marbles every time Arsenal don't win 4-0. I don't think this issue with a "global fanbase" is particular to Arsenal. The support from the "global fanbase" tends to be more of a status thing in those countries and so they only support teams which are winning. For teams which aren't winning (or at least aren't competing) they go through two stages: overblown hyperbolic rage on social media, then they go and support someone else. Look at how many people in SE Asia have switched allegiance from Man Utd to Man City.

But it is curious that the media only ever highlights this issue with Arsenal.

I am an Arsenal fan (although Bradford City is my first love) and I think Arteta rotates as much as he can. I'd like to see a bit more of Norgaard to give Rice a break, but other than that I think he gets the balance right. The issue is that the Premier League has so much money that it is now strong all the way down to the very bottom. Look at Chelsea this week: they rotated and lost 3-1 at Leeds.

But at the same time now you usually need to be aiming for 90 points to even be competing for the title. Look at the 23/24 season: that Arsenal side won more games and scored more goals than the Invincibles, but somehow they "bottled it". Gone are the days when you'd win the league with 75-80 points.

 

[AlterEgo]

Genuinely the worst thing about the Premier League is the "global fanbase". It is one of the major things which has made me lose interest in keeping up with it on social media.

 

[Iskra]

Genuinely the worst thing about the Premier League is the "global fanbase". It is one of the major things which has made me lose interest in keeping up with it on social media.

Yeah, everyone should support their local team...

It's not the old school Arsenal fans who are banging on about that at all.

It's Arsenal's more recent "global fanbase" who absolutely lose their marbles every time Arsenal don't win 4-0. I don't think this issue with a "global fanbase" is particular to Arsenal. The support from the "global fanbase" tends to be more of a status thing in those countries and so they only support teams which are winning. For teams which aren't winning (or at least aren't competing) they go through two stages: overblown hyperbolic rage on social media, then they go and support someone else. Look at how many people in SE Asia have switched allegiance from Man Utd to Man City.

But it is curious that the media only ever highlights this issue with Arsenal.

I am an Arsenal fan (although Bradford City is my first love) and I think Arteta rotates as much as he can. I'd like to see a bit more of Norgaard to give Rice a break, but other than that I think he gets the balance right. The issue is that the Premier League has so much money that it is now strong all the way down to the very bottom. Look at Chelsea this week: they rotated and lost 3-1 at Leeds.

But at the same time now you usually need to be aiming for 90 points to even be competing for the title. Look at the 23/24 season: that Arsenal side won more games and scored more goals than the Invincibles, but somehow they "bottled it". Gone are the days when you'd win the league with 75-80 points.

These guys are just actors, doing it for the clicks. They aren't proper supporters. Ignore them and move on, they're easy to spot.

All Premier League clubs benefit from an element of football tourism, particularly the London clubs with bigger stadiums.

That's 'Southern' leagues in name only - the odd splits are because the FA wanted to split the administration of the new divisions amongst existing leagues. The Southern Premier Central and Northern Premier Division One Midlands are, effectively, a Midlands League.

I'm not so sure. Quite a few stadiums are fully subscribed making it hard for actual fans to get tickets, let alone tourists (unless they are willing to pay through the nose).

 

[Haywain]

I'm not so sure. Quite a few stadiums are fully subscribed making it hard for actual fans to get tickets, let alone tourists (unless they are willing to pay through the nose).

I am sure. There's always a black market for tickets and the tourist who has psid for flights and accommodation is less likely to be put off by the inflated prices. During our brief spell in the Premier League we suddenly had an impressive amount if overseas support that hadn't been noticed before and hasn't been seen since.

 

[Iskra]

I am sure. There's always a black market for tickets and the tourist who has psid for flights and accommodation is less likely to be put off by the inflated prices. During our brief spell in the Premier League we suddenly had an impressive amount if overseas support that hadn't been noticed before and hasn't been seen since.

It doesn't necessarily have to be black market- they might have to fork out for a hospitality seat instead.