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Phone reception inside carriages - Repeaters? Wifi? Cellular modems? Laser etched glass? I'm confused...

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Hedge Fund

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I'm hoping someone can help me understand what the situation is with mobile phones receiving their signal for data and calls, when inside a carriage (Specifically Pendolino for me, but interested to hear about others).

I always assumed that when onboard a train, my phone would receive a signal from cell towers in the normal way, with the signal passing through the windows of the train.

Or, the other option for a data connection is to use the on-board Wifi, which I assumed was a cellular modem unit in each carriage, which received a data service from the cellular network via an external antenna, then distributed it inside the carriages via wireless access points.

But, I now discover that train carriages are actually fitted with cellular repeaters (which are notoriously terrible). I have also read that the metal anti-solar coating on the carriage windows is extremely effective at blocking phone signals, and a new technique is being trailed whereby Avanti (and others) are experimenting with laser etching a grid in the existing windows where the metal coating is removed enough to allow phone signals to pass through.

Can anyone tell me what the actual situation is with regards to all this please? How does it all work and what might be changing?

At the end of the day, all I want is for my phone to have a decent signal whilst on a train, but the discussion might be interesting!
 
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OverlordBWT

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Its pretty bad on EMR and The Eurostar from what I found too. Eurostar and EMR WiFi is so unbelievably bad. It doesnt make sense. I suppose its got something to do with the speed and metal absorbing electro magnetic waves making them weaker or mot functional.
 

Lewisham2221

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I'm hoping someone can help me understand what the situation is with mobile phones receiving their signal for data and calls, when inside a carriage (Specifically Pendolino for me, but interested to hear about others).

I always assumed that when onboard a train, my phone would receive a signal from cell towers in the normal way, with the signal passing through the windows of the train.

Or, the other option for a data connection is to use the on-board Wifi, which I assumed was a cellular modem unit in each carriage, which received a data service from the cellular network via an external antenna, then distributed it inside the carriages via wireless access points.

But, I now discover that train carriages are actually fitted with cellular repeaters (which are notoriously terrible). I have also read that the metal anti-solar coating on the carriage windows is extremely effective at blocking phone signals, and a new technique is being trailed whereby Avanti (and others) are experimenting with laser etching a grid in the existing windows where the metal coating is removed enough to allow phone signals to pass through.

Can anyone tell me what the actual situation is with regards to all this please? How does it all work and what might be changing?

At the end of the day, all I want is for my phone to have a decent signal whilst on a train, but the discussion might be interesting!
I was always led to believe that, ultimately, it's always going to be pretty ropey when you're travelling at 90mph+ and thus constantly searching for and connecting to different cell towers as you move in and out of their range - more than happy to be corrected though!
 

TheSmiths82

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I was always led to believe that, ultimately, it's always going to be pretty ropey when you're travelling at 90mph+ and thus constantly searching for and connecting to different cell towers as you move in and out of their range - more than happy to be corrected though!

I find my battery very quickly drains on train journeys too, I suspect this is because the phone is struggling to latch onto masks when it is travelling at 125mph. That said I have done 7 hour journeys on the TGV and I have had pretty much full signal throughout in France. I also think it has got better in the UK.
 

signed

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All WiFi on trains is currently 4G modem. Which needs to fight congestion with every passenger not on WiFi and using 4G network on top of every WiFi user + the various technical challenges with that fast moving (on French LGVs they have to put an antenna every 2.5km, which is very tiny at 320kph). The fuller the train the worst it will be.
 
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Its pretty bad on EMR and The Eurostar from what I found too. Eurostar and EMR WiFi is so unbelievably bad. It doesnt make sense. I suppose its got something to do with the speed and metal absorbing electro magnetic waves making them weaker or mot functional.
The 22x fleet is particularly bad for mobile reception because of the solar reflecting coating on the glazing, great for keeping the saloons cooler from solar gain, bad for also blocking microwaves.
 

norbitonflyer

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I used to work in that industry and I know a lot of work was done in getting mobiles to work at high speeds.

One particular issue I recall was that mobile phones on fast moving trains were trying to handover to short range "microcells" provided at wayside stations for passengers using those stations.

By the time the handoff was completed the train had already passed through the station and out of range of the microcell.

I think the solution involved measuring the rate of change of signal strength and only handing off if it was relatively slow, as would be the case if you were approaching a macrocell at any speed, but a microcell only if you were on foot (or standing still, in which the signal strength would not be changing at all) .
 
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styles

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Read a book instead :D

But seriously, the answer probably lies in femtocell devices, with more mobile phone receivers on the outside of the unit. Not cheap though.
 

sh24

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I browsed the Aurora display at Nottingham which talked about the laser etched windows. Much needed as the 222 fleet are especially bad for mobile receptions.

Have long since given up with on train wifi, it's all bloody awful. Hotspot from iPhone is the way to go.
 

styles

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I browsed the Aurora display at Nottingham which talked about the laser etched windows. Much needed as the 222 fleet are especially bad for mobile receptions.

Have long since given up with on train wifi, it's all bloody awful. Hotspot from iPhone is the way to go.
I have given up on a lot of public WiFi. It's often not very good, or it requires personal information to connect, etc, and it's unsecured.

There are few places I find public WiFi to be available but mobile signal not.
 

frankmoh

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Southeastern's WiFi on 465s seems to be better than on 707s from my anecdotal experiences. Maybe the open windows allow more data in if you think about it very unscientifically.
 

rf_ioliver

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I was always led to believe that, ultimately, it's always going to be pretty ropey when you're travelling at 90mph+ and thus constantly searching for and connecting to different cell towers as you move in and out of their range - more than happy to be corrected though!
GSM and later have been tested at 400kmh+ (one experiment was done by Thalys a few years back at those speeds IIRC). The primary issue is the handover between towers takes time - network routing need to be calculated and applied. Some preparation for this is done by both the phone and the base station, and some optimisations can be applied, such as figuring out the next most likely base station to use. You also have to take into consideration how used the network is at that point in time etc.

IIRC, GSM cell handover has a hard upper limit of 800ms, but should be completed in 200-300ms to ensure a reliable call. Of course, transmitting data is much easier than voice, but streaming services will suffer from too much data loss.

At any point in time, your phone knows about maybe as many as 20 or 30 base stations and has made some form of contact - mainly about signal strength etc.

This BTW is also one reason why aircraft and phones is a problem ... 200 or so phones all requesting cell handover causes hell in the control signalling of mobile networks. Use of pico or nano base stations onboard trains/planes and some kind of concentrator is a much better idea, but then you still need sufficient bandwidth from there to the outside World.

The main trouble here is that base stations and antennas cost money. A typical, small antenna suitable for indoor use (think power levels as being the issue - frying your passengers is bad for business) - you'd need one per carriage, then the fibre to the base station, power to the antennas, and then you need to put the base station in a rack and connect it to the front-haul network. 5G and some of the upcoming 6G specs make this a lot easier, especially when switching between terrestrial and satellite, plus how to operate across network operators (sorting out roaming between rival operators is one for the lawyers).

Basically this is what you install: https://www.nokia.com/mobile-networks/ran/small-cells/airscale-indoor-radio/
 

OverlordBWT

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The 22x fleet is particularly bad for mobile reception because of the solar reflecting coating on the glazing, great for keeping the saloons cooler from solar gain, bad for also blocking microwaves.
Oh ofcourse phones dont use radio waves as of right now dont they
 

Horizon22

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I used to work in that industry and I know a lot of work was done in getting mobiles to work at high speeds. One particular issue i recall was that mobile phones on fast moving trains were traying to handover to short range "microcells" provided at wayside stations for passengers using those stations. By the time the handoff was completed the train had already passed through the station and out of range of the microcell. I think the solution involved measuring the rate of change of signal strength and only handing off if it was relatively slow, as would be the case if you were approaching a macrocell at any speed, but a microcell only if you were on foot (or standing still, in which the signal stregth would not be chaging at all) .

And I'm pretty sure such phone behaviour also drains the battery quite fast.

Ultimately trying to get good wi-fi / mobile signal on fast-moving trains appears to be a question of physics, which is why it doesn't really work that well anywhere, in my experience
 

Flying Snail

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And I'm pretty sure such phone behaviour also drains the battery quite fast.

Ultimately trying to get good wi-fi / mobile signal on fast-moving trains appears to be a question of physics, which is why it doesn't really work that well anywhere, in my experience

It seems to work perfectly well for all the tossers who continuously play tiktoks and other streaming garbage through their phones or talk absolute drivel at high volume for an entire journey, example being "Important Business Man" such as in the op's avatar.
 

Halwynd

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I have given up on a lot of public WiFi. It's often not very good, or it requires personal information to connect, etc, and it's unsecured.

True - if I used company equipment with public wi-fi my contract of employment says that I'll be subject to disciplinary action.

It seems to work perfectly well for all the tossers who continuously play tiktoks and other streaming garbage through their phones or talk absolute drivel at high volume for an entire journey, example being "Important Business Man" such as in the op's avatar.

Many years ago, when mobile phones were a novelty, I knew one person who, when onboard a train, used to pretend to have a telephone conversation when there was nobody at the other end of the call. Caught him at it one day... when he was 'on a call' I went to the vestibule and rang his number.. I think he used to get some feeling of importance/superiority from it. Very sad...
 

MatthewHutton

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Its pretty bad on EMR and The Eurostar from what I found too. Eurostar and EMR WiFi is so unbelievably bad. It doesnt make sense. I suppose its got something to do with the speed and metal absorbing electro magnetic waves making them weaker or mot functional.
I have had many fewer issues in France and Germany even at high speed in recent years. Definitely it is the best in Switzerland though.

Pretty sure it was decent in Japan on the Shinkansen.
 

Brooke

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I have had many fewer issues in France and Germany even at high speed in recent years. Definitely it is the best in Switzerland though.
Absolutely this!

Of course there are technical challenges however Switzerland has overcome it perfectly - and many other countries like France are getting there.

It’s well known that UK mobile signal is very poor quality in general, and trains are just another example of that failure.

A survey found that the UK was 23rd worst of a group of similar counties assessed and “the worst in the G7”:
source:%20Financial%20Times
https://share.google/aL1GOyTC8He4FoOt1.
 

bahnause

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Absolutely this!

Of course there are technical challenges however Switzerland has overcome it perfectly - and many other countries like France are getting there.

It’s well known that UK mobile signal is very poor quality in general, and trains are just another example of that failure.
SBB has been using laser-etched glass for some years now. Previously, mobile repeaters were installed in the carriages. These were, of course, additional technical devices that required maintenance and funding. Except on international connections, Wi-Fi was never an option. Ultimately, these routers only connect via the existing mobile network. From a technical point of view, there is nothing to be gained by using Wi-Fi. With the SBB Free Surf app, however, you can use data free of charge on long-distance trains, even without a mobile data plan.
 

185143

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I'm not exactly a regular on Eurostar but I've never found their WiFi to be that bad.

Did a Hull Trains divert into St. Pancras last weekend, the data signal was actually reasonable. A far cry from the 222s that most people have to use on that line. Hopefully an improvement will be noticeable on the 810s.
 

Horizon22

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It seems to work perfectly well for all the tossers who continuously play tiktoks and other streaming garbage through their phones or talk absolute drivel at high volume for an entire journey, example being "Important Business Man" such as in the op's avatar.

Most of that behaviour seems to be local urban trains, which moves slower, stops frequency and has an easier time connecting to towers. Not saying this is universal but some of that behaviour is by people on pretty expensive contracts.
 

QueensCurve

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I find my battery very quickly drains on train journeys too, I suspect this is because the phone is struggling to latch onto masks when it is travelling at 125mph. That said I have done 7 hour journeys on the TGV and I have had pretty much full signal throughout in France. I also think it has got better in the
You can even get a signal in the long Alpine tunnels in Switzerland these days.
SBB has been using laser-etched glass for some years now. Previously, mobile repeaters were installed in the carriages. These were, of course, additional technical devices that required maintenance and funding. Except on international connections, Wi-Fi was never an option. Ultimately, these routers only connect via the existing mobile network. From a technical point of view, there is nothing to be gained by using Wi-Fi. With the SBB Free Surf app, however, you can use data free of charge on long-distance trains, even without a mobile data plan.
There's a useful page abou ther the laser-etching thing.. https://web.archive.org/web/2025071...s-trains-permeable-to-mobile-network-signals/ (archive link for longevity.)
 
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Hedge Fund

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It seems to work perfectly well for all the tossers who continuously play tiktoks and other streaming garbage through their phones or talk absolute drivel at high volume for an entire journey, example being "Important Business Man" such as in the op's avatar.

What about those of who sit quietly watching a film with headphones on, or just want to use to the time to reply to a few emails? ;)
 

MrJeeves

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Funnily enough, I'm doing a research project relating to mobile phone signal on trains at the moment...

I'm hoping someone can help me understand what the situation is with mobile phones receiving their signal for data and calls, when inside a carriage (Specifically Pendolino for me, but interested to hear about others).

I always assumed that when onboard a train, my phone would receive a signal from cell towers in the normal way, with the signal passing through the windows of the train.
Yes, that's correct.
Or, the other option for a data connection is to use the on-board Wifi, which I assumed was a cellular modem unit in each carriage, which received a data service from the cellular network via an external antenna, then distributed it inside the carriages via wireless access points.
Typically, it's one modem and antenna(s) at either end of a unit (usually with two different mobile network providers on each modem, typically EE and Vodafone from what I've seen), with the WiFi itself provided by access points throughout the train. But I've also been told that some installations are one modem/antenna/router per vehicle!
But, I now discover that train carriages are actually fitted with cellular repeaters (which are notoriously terrible). I have also read that the metal anti-solar coating on the carriage windows is extremely effective at blocking phone signals, and a new technique is being trailed whereby Avanti (and others) are experimenting with laser etching a grid in the existing windows where the metal coating is removed enough to allow phone signals to pass through.
Virgin Trains, in partnership with Orange, fitted all of their Pendolinos and Voyagers with mobile phone repeaters for 2G (and maybe 3G, too?). These were switched off in the 2010s and then later removed. I'm not aware of any other UK rolling stock with phone repeaters.

Ofcom's rules meant that there were only a very small number of permitted static repeaters which could be installed without a license, and that they could only repeat one mobile network's signals at a time. These rules were relaxed, and broadened in May 2022. I don't believe the current rules permit any kind of mobile repeaters (as in, ones which are not in a static location) without a license, which would mean any train operator wanting such a system would have to go directly to a mobile network to achieve this.

All of this is probably why when any potential improvement of mobile networks is wanted on the railways everyone goes for the idea of improving and installing new infrastructure on the mobile network side (plus that means the network gets another meaningful asset rather than the railway!), such as the new leaky feeder solution for the Gasworks/Copenhagen Tunnels at King's Cross, or EE & SWR's joint upgrade works on >100 phone masts across the rail network, or the in-progress Brighton Mainline mobile signal improvement project.

Laser etching windows to make "RF-transparent" glass is a well-established thing now. The first study I could find on its real-world impact was from 2018 by some researchers working at Swisscom's research department who looked at the simulated and actual impact of these glass planes versus the standard ones installed on some of their trains, and showed a rather significant difference in signal strength with treated panes vs coated panes.

Screenshot 2025-12-03 at 16.15.08.png

For some context, -115 dB RSRP is becoming close to unusable, so the fact that treated window panes can pull an in-carriage signal from around -123 dB to -109 dB is pretty impressive. I would say that the UK network would benefit pretty hugely from this. In reality, that didn't account for a huge difference in throughput in Switzerland, but their mobile networks are far superior to ours over here!

You wouldn't see a running-in board in the UK with two mobile network radios with antennas attached to the catenary supports like you do in Switzerland:

PXL_20240403_125542760.jpg

Another paper by researchers at ITU Vienna looked at the effect of RF penetration loss in different train carriages too (in this case, OeBB trains) which each had different types of RF-treated window panes and different amounts of window-to-bodyshell ratios. They basically found that more window = more good, but that active repeater solutions were still best.

Screenshot 2025-12-03 at 16.19.17.png

Really, the UK mobile networks have simply got a comparably poor network to most of Europe, and Network Rail have historically caused issues for them to deploy better-sited mobile network towers (mostly relating to interference concerns with GSM-R). Then you have to account for the issues that come with the UK's development/planning legislation. And also the fact our mobile networks are incredibly cheap compared to a lot of European networks meaning there's less capital to reinvest in the networks.

We are trying to get better at things like this, with many Network Rail managed stations gaining distributed antenna systems (such as Victoria, London Bridge, Clapham Junction) but I haven't actually seen any of these switched on yet... Some already existed at these stations, and some at other stations too, but many have slowly broken and not been fixed, or usage has simply outgrown what they are capable of these days.

Victoria:
PXL_20250430_071420687.MP.jpg

Victoria also used to have small cells for Orange before the Orange/T-Mobile merger, but these had been switched off for ages and finally disappeared with the Southern gateline expansion. Other antennas were also dotted around the station, but these were either only broadcasting 2G/3G or were simply killed years ago as well.
Screenshot 2025-12-03 at 16.53.37.png

Clapham Junction:
PXL_20251031_231023051.NIGHT.jpgPXL_20250708_175213314.MP(1).jpg

London Bridge:
PXL_20251019_142412004.jpg

I don't have any pictures of ones at Waterloo, but they also exist there, and are switched on I believe. St Pancras also has a coverage solution throughout the station for EE, but I've run out of attachments.

As an aside, there are issues that are present with LTE (4G) and NR (5G) which make connectivity in high speed travel more complex, but these were forseen long ago and changes have been implemented into later versions of the spec to account for these, specifically like things explicitly called "highSpeedFlag" which will account for issues posed by the Doppler effect. France's mobile network deployments along the TGV network will use these and other tweaked network parameters extensively to provide a tailored experience for passengers on high speed rail. The UK does not use any of these, because networks either do not have the radio optimisation knowledge/understanding to use them effectively, or because they simply don't have any proper dedicated railway deployments that would benefit from it (or maybe both from what I hear!).
 
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ajrm

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Its pretty bad on EMR and The Eurostar from what I found too. Eurostar and EMR WiFi is so unbelievably bad. It doesnt make sense. I suppose its got something to do with the speed and metal absorbing electro magnetic waves making them weaker or mot functional.

Eurostar is extraordinarily bad. On my last few journeys it's been basically unusable from start to finish.
 

m0ffy

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Funnily enough, I'm doing a research project relating to mobile phone signal on trains at the moment...


Yes, that's correct.

Typically, it's one modem and antenna(s) at either end of a unit (usually with two different mobile network providers on each modem, typically EE and Vodafone from what I've seen), with the WiFi itself provided by access points throughout the train. But I've also been told that some installations are one modem/antenna/router per vehicle!

Virgin Trains, in partnership with Orange, fitted all of their Pendolinos and Voyagers with mobile phone repeaters for 2G (and maybe 3G, too?). These were switched off in the 2010s and then later removed. I'm not aware of any other UK rolling stock with phone repeaters.

Ofcom's rules meant that there were only a very small number of permitted static repeaters which could be installed without a license, and that they could only repeat one mobile network's signals at a time. These rules were relaxed, and broadened in May 2022. I don't believe the current rules permit any kind of mobile repeaters (as in, ones which are not in a static location) without a license, which would mean any train operator wanting such a system would have to go directly to a mobile network to achieve this.

All of this is probably why when any potential improvement of mobile networks is wanted on the railways everyone goes for the idea of improving and installing new infrastructure on the mobile network side (plus that means the network gets another meaningful asset rather than the railway!), such as the new leaky feeder solution for the Gasworks/Copenhagen Tunnels at King's Cross, or EE & SWR's joint upgrade works on >100 phone masts across the rail network, or the in-progress Brighton Mainline mobile signal improvement project.

Laser etching windows to make "RF-transparent" glass is a well-established thing now. The first study I could find on its real-world impact was from 2018 by some researchers working at Swisscom's research department who looked at the simulated and actual impact of these glass planes versus the standard ones installed on some of their trains, and showed a rather significant difference in signal strength with treated panes vs coated panes.

View attachment 193269

For some context, -115 dB RSRP is becoming close to unusable, so the fact that treated window panes can pull an in-carriage signal from around -123 dB to -109 dB is pretty impressive. I would say that the UK network would benefit pretty hugely from this. In reality, that didn't account for a huge difference in throughput in Switzerland, but their mobile networks are far superior to ours over here!

You wouldn't see a running-in board in the UK with two mobile network radios with antennas attached to the catenary supports like you do in Switzerland:

View attachment 193272

Another paper by researchers at ITU Vienna looked at the effect of RF penetration loss in different train carriages too (in this case, OeBB trains) which each had different types of RF-treated window panes and different amounts of window-to-bodyshell ratios. They basically found that more window = more good, but that active repeater solutions were still best.

View attachment 193270

Really, the UK mobile networks have simply got a comparably poor network to most of Europe, and Network Rail have historically caused issues for them to deploy better-sited mobile network towers (mostly relating to interference concerns with GSM-R). Then you have to account for the issues that come with the UK's development/planning legislation. And also the fact our mobile networks are incredibly cheap compared to a lot of European networks meaning there's less capital to reinvest in the networks.

We are trying to get better at things like this, with many Network Rail managed stations gaining distributed antenna systems (such as Victoria, London Bridge, Clapham Junction) but I haven't actually seen any of these switched on yet... Some already existed at these stations, and some at other stations too, but many have slowly broken and not been fixed, or usage has simply outgrown what they are capable of these days.

Victoria:
View attachment 193278

Victoria also used to have small cells for Orange before the Orange/T-Mobile merger, but these had been switched off for ages and finally disappeared with the Southern gateline expansion. Other antennas were also dotted around the station, but these were either only broadcasting 2G/3G or were simply killed years ago as well.
View attachment 193279

Clapham Junction:
View attachment 193274View attachment 193275

London Bridge:
View attachment 193276

I don't have any pictures of ones at Waterloo, but they also exist there, and are switched on I believe. St Pancras also has a coverage solution throughout the station for EE, but I've run out of attachments.

As an aside, there are issues that are present with LTE (4G) and NR (5G) which make connectivity in high speed travel more complex, but these were forseen long ago and changes have been implemented into later versions of the spec to account for these, specifically like things explicitly called "highSpeedFlag" which will account for issues posed by the Doppler effect. France's mobile network deployments along the TGV network will use these and other tweaked network parameters extensively to provide a tailored experience for passengers on high speed rail. The UK does not use any of these, because networks either do not have the radio optimisation knowledge/understanding to use them effectively, or because they simply don't have any proper dedicated railway deployments that would benefit from it (or maybe both from what I hear!).

Tremendously interesting post!

I think your last sentence describes a lot of issues in the UK’s MNOs - they have a huge dependency on outsourcing to manage the radio estate, and there is a lack of will to pay competitive wages for the talent they need. The result is that more specialist radio outfits can snap-up this talent, leaving MNOs and their suppliers to make compromises (such as Ericsson’s decision to make field technicians “non-technical”, requiring them to simply act on the instructions of their overseas support centre, regardless of the technician’s knowledge/expertise).
 

MrJeeves

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I think your last sentence describes a lot of issues in the UK’s MNOs - they have a huge dependency on outsourcing to manage the radio estate, and there is a lack of will to pay competitive wages for the talent they need. The result is that more specialist radio outfits can snap-up this talent, leaving MNOs and their suppliers to make compromises (such as Ericsson’s decision to make field technicians “non-technical”, requiring them to simply act on the instructions of their overseas support centre, regardless of the technician’s knowledge/expertise).
From those I know in the industry, the worst part is that the people who are left in the MNOs have such a huge knowledge gap that they don't know what they don't know. It's really a race to the bottom.

It's all made worse by networks "diversifying" their portfolio by splitting the country into different regions, using different vendors for radios in different geographical areas, each with slight differences in their software, and then the MNO pays only one of those vendors to optimise their whole network. Astonishing, really.
 

Hedge Fund

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Funnily enough, I'm doing a research project relating to mobile phone signal on trains at the moment...


Yes, that's correct.

Typically, it's one modem and antenna(s) at either end of a unit (usually with two different mobile network providers on each modem, typically EE and Vodafone from what I've seen), with the WiFi itself provided by access points throughout the train. But I've also been told that some installations are one modem/antenna/router per vehicle!

Virgin Trains, in partnership with Orange, fitted all of their Pendolinos and Voyagers with mobile phone repeaters for 2G (and maybe 3G, too?). These were switched off in the 2010s and then later removed. I'm not aware of any other UK rolling stock with phone repeaters.

Ofcom's rules meant that there were only a very small number of permitted static repeaters which could be installed without a license, and that they could only repeat one mobile network's signals at a time. These rules were relaxed, and broadened in May 2022. I don't believe the current rules permit any kind of mobile repeaters (as in, ones which are not in a static location) without a license, which would mean any train operator wanting such a system would have to go directly to a mobile network to achieve this.

All of this is probably why when any potential improvement of mobile networks is wanted on the railways everyone goes for the idea of improving and installing new infrastructure on the mobile network side (plus that means the network gets another meaningful asset rather than the railway!), such as the new leaky feeder solution for the Gasworks/Copenhagen Tunnels at King's Cross, or EE & SWR's joint upgrade works on >100 phone masts across the rail network, or the in-progress Brighton Mainline mobile signal improvement project.

Laser etching windows to make "RF-transparent" glass is a well-established thing now. The first study I could find on its real-world impact was from 2018 by some researchers working at Swisscom's research department who looked at the simulated and actual impact of these glass planes versus the standard ones installed on some of their trains, and showed a rather significant difference in signal strength with treated panes vs coated panes.

View attachment 193269

For some context, -115 dB RSRP is becoming close to unusable, so the fact that treated window panes can pull an in-carriage signal from around -123 dB to -109 dB is pretty impressive. I would say that the UK network would benefit pretty hugely from this. In reality, that didn't account for a huge difference in throughput in Switzerland, but their mobile networks are far superior to ours over here!

You wouldn't see a running-in board in the UK with two mobile network radios with antennas attached to the catenary supports like you do in Switzerland:

View attachment 193272

Another paper by researchers at ITU Vienna looked at the effect of RF penetration loss in different train carriages too (in this case, OeBB trains) which each had different types of RF-treated window panes and different amounts of window-to-bodyshell ratios. They basically found that more window = more good, but that active repeater solutions were still best.

View attachment 193270

Really, the UK mobile networks have simply got a comparably poor network to most of Europe, and Network Rail have historically caused issues for them to deploy better-sited mobile network towers (mostly relating to interference concerns with GSM-R). Then you have to account for the issues that come with the UK's development/planning legislation. And also the fact our mobile networks are incredibly cheap compared to a lot of European networks meaning there's less capital to reinvest in the networks.

We are trying to get better at things like this, with many Network Rail managed stations gaining distributed antenna systems (such as Victoria, London Bridge, Clapham Junction) but I haven't actually seen any of these switched on yet... Some already existed at these stations, and some at other stations too, but many have slowly broken and not been fixed, or usage has simply outgrown what they are capable of these days.

Victoria:
View attachment 193278

Victoria also used to have small cells for Orange before the Orange/T-Mobile merger, but these had been switched off for ages and finally disappeared with the Southern gateline expansion. Other antennas were also dotted around the station, but these were either only broadcasting 2G/3G or were simply killed years ago as well.
View attachment 193279

Clapham Junction:
View attachment 193274View attachment 193275

London Bridge:
View attachment 193276

I don't have any pictures of ones at Waterloo, but they also exist there, and are switched on I believe. St Pancras also has a coverage solution throughout the station for EE, but I've run out of attachments.

As an aside, there are issues that are present with LTE (4G) and NR (5G) which make connectivity in high speed travel more complex, but these were forseen long ago and changes have been implemented into later versions of the spec to account for these, specifically like things explicitly called "highSpeedFlag" which will account for issues posed by the Doppler effect. France's mobile network deployments along the TGV network will use these and other tweaked network parameters extensively to provide a tailored experience for passengers on high speed rail. The UK does not use any of these, because networks either do not have the radio optimisation knowledge/understanding to use them effectively, or because they simply don't have any proper dedicated railway deployments that would benefit from it (or maybe both from what I hear!).

Wow! That was an incredibly interesting and useful post!

Thank you!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Funnily enough, I'm doing a research project relating to mobile phone signal on trains at the moment...


Yes, that's correct.

Typically, it's one modem and antenna(s) at either end of a unit (usually with two different mobile network providers on each modem, typically EE and Vodafone from what I've seen), with the WiFi itself provided by access points throughout the train. But I've also been told that some installations are one modem/antenna/router per vehicle!

Virgin Trains, in partnership with Orange, fitted all of their Pendolinos and Voyagers with mobile phone repeaters for 2G (and maybe 3G, too?). These were switched off in the 2010s and then later removed. I'm not aware of any other UK rolling stock with phone repeaters.

Ofcom's rules meant that there were only a very small number of permitted static repeaters which could be installed without a license, and that they could only repeat one mobile network's signals at a time. These rules were relaxed, and broadened in May 2022. I don't believe the current rules permit any kind of mobile repeaters (as in, ones which are not in a static location) without a license, which would mean any train operator wanting such a system would have to go directly to a mobile network to achieve this.

All of this is probably why when any potential improvement of mobile networks is wanted on the railways everyone goes for the idea of improving and installing new infrastructure on the mobile network side (plus that means the network gets another meaningful asset rather than the railway!), such as the new leaky feeder solution for the Gasworks/Copenhagen Tunnels at King's Cross, or EE & SWR's joint upgrade works on >100 phone masts across the rail network, or the in-progress Brighton Mainline mobile signal improvement project.

Laser etching windows to make "RF-transparent" glass is a well-established thing now. The first study I could find on its real-world impact was from 2018 by some researchers working at Swisscom's research department who looked at the simulated and actual impact of these glass planes versus the standard ones installed on some of their trains, and showed a rather significant difference in signal strength with treated panes vs coated panes.

View attachment 193269

For some context, -115 dB RSRP is becoming close to unusable, so the fact that treated window panes can pull an in-carriage signal from around -123 dB to -109 dB is pretty impressive. I would say that the UK network would benefit pretty hugely from this. In reality, that didn't account for a huge difference in throughput in Switzerland, but their mobile networks are far superior to ours over here!

You wouldn't see a running-in board in the UK with two mobile network radios with antennas attached to the catenary supports like you do in Switzerland:

View attachment 193272

Another paper by researchers at ITU Vienna looked at the effect of RF penetration loss in different train carriages too (in this case, OeBB trains) which each had different types of RF-treated window panes and different amounts of window-to-bodyshell ratios. They basically found that more window = more good, but that active repeater solutions were still best.

View attachment 193270

Really, the UK mobile networks have simply got a comparably poor network to most of Europe, and Network Rail have historically caused issues for them to deploy better-sited mobile network towers (mostly relating to interference concerns with GSM-R). Then you have to account for the issues that come with the UK's development/planning legislation. And also the fact our mobile networks are incredibly cheap compared to a lot of European networks meaning there's less capital to reinvest in the networks.

We are trying to get better at things like this, with many Network Rail managed stations gaining distributed antenna systems (such as Victoria, London Bridge, Clapham Junction) but I haven't actually seen any of these switched on yet... Some already existed at these stations, and some at other stations too, but many have slowly broken and not been fixed, or usage has simply outgrown what they are capable of these days.

Victoria:
View attachment 193278

Victoria also used to have small cells for Orange before the Orange/T-Mobile merger, but these had been switched off for ages and finally disappeared with the Southern gateline expansion. Other antennas were also dotted around the station, but these were either only broadcasting 2G/3G or were simply killed years ago as well.
View attachment 193279

Clapham Junction:
View attachment 193274View attachment 193275

London Bridge:
View attachment 193276

I don't have any pictures of ones at Waterloo, but they also exist there, and are switched on I believe. St Pancras also has a coverage solution throughout the station for EE, but I've run out of attachments.

As an aside, there are issues that are present with LTE (4G) and NR (5G) which make connectivity in high speed travel more complex, but these were forseen long ago and changes have been implemented into later versions of the spec to account for these, specifically like things explicitly called "highSpeedFlag" which will account for issues posed by the Doppler effect. France's mobile network deployments along the TGV network will use these and other tweaked network parameters extensively to provide a tailored experience for passengers on high speed rail. The UK does not use any of these, because networks either do not have the radio optimisation knowledge/understanding to use them effectively, or because they simply don't have any proper dedicated railway deployments that would benefit from it (or maybe both from what I hear!).

Wow! That was an incredibly interesting and useful post!

Thank you!
 
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