Experiences of service recovery (or lack of) on GTR Great Northern

[JonathanH]

The Peterborough - Horsham services so far today have been shocking.

Yes, bad day today. In theory Peterborough to Horsham is meant to be one of the services maintained in the contingency plan for disruption, as the London Victoria to Reigate and Bedford to Three Bridges trains get cancelled. However, the seem to have been instances of Peterborough services diverting to Kings Cross and Horsham services terminating at Redhill.

Redhill seems to be receiving calls in Southern South Coast services to maintain a service. As is well versed, that isn't an option between Hitchin and Peterborough.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Yes, bad day today. In theory Peterborough to Horsham is meant to be one of the services maintained in the contingency plan for disruption, as the London Victoria to Reigate and Bedford to Three Bridges trains get cancelled. However, the seem to have been instances of Peterborough services diverting to Kings Cross and Horsham services terminating at Redhill.

Redhill seems to be receiving calls in Southern South Coast services to maintain a service. As is well versed, that isn't an option between Hitchin and Peterborough.

Not at Earslwood and Salfords though.

Today is another example of the random choices that are made when issues arise. The main issue on the South side is ESRs on the Fast lines in the Horley area which restricts capacity between Gatwick and Earlswood fair enough but the scale of the reductions is way more than they implement when its a planned two track block. Also they will max out trains to 12 cars but today weve got 8 cars now trying to absorb extra passengers.

 

[OscarH]

It seems customers at Huntingdon, St Neots, Sandy, Biggleswade and Arlesey are just a nuisance to them, it's just better if control forget about them

Everything past Three Bridges on the south end is treated as an inconvenience too!

 

[Steve Harris]

Yes, bad day today. In theory Peterborough to Horsham is meant to be one of the services maintained in the contingency plan for disruption, as the London Victoria to Reigate and Bedford to Three Bridges trains get cancelled. However, the seem to have been instances of Peterborough services diverting to Kings Cross and Horsham services terminating at Redhill.

Redhill seems to be receiving calls in Southern South Coast services to maintain a service. As is well versed, that isn't an option between Hitchin and Peterborough.

I've just has a look at RTT and yes it seems control has finally made the correct decision to run an hourly Peterborough- Kings Cross service vice the 2tph service it should be, so at least there is a kind of useable service now compared to the 2hr gaps which happened earlier today while control decided what to do (the elephant in the room is why did it take them so long considering it was posted on here pre Great Northern to Thameslink switch that if any disruption occurred the service could be diverted into KX at the drop of a hat)!

 

[JonathanH]

On the south side, the London Victoria to Reigate service has now been restored, and there is a Redhill to Horsham shuttle. With no Bedford to Three Bridges service, only four coach trains linking London with Redhill.

 

[jon0844]

Some services that were cancelled en masse are in the process of being reinstated, but I think the rest of the day is pretty much going to be a write off.

 

[Steve Harris]

Some services that were cancelled en masse are in the process of being reinstated, but I think the rest of the day is pretty much going to be a write off.

Not on the GN side there not. But your right in saying that the whole day has been a right off.

It would be nice to know when the 25kv Wood Green supply is going to stop falling over though.

 

[Magdalen Road]

Not posted this in a while, so in the runup to the timetable change here's the current 4-week running punctuality stats for weekday evening peak Kings Cross to Ely services:

View attachment 192998
(image shows very poor performance of most evening services between Kings Cross and Ely)

Doesn't seem to have improved much over the year. I can't see any way the new timetable will be an improvement, in fact I expect it to be worse with these services being caught behind stoppers and Thameslink services between Hitchin and Cambridge. Hopefully I'm wrong.

Similarly, I've just had a look at the equivalent 4-week running punctuality stats for the weekday commuting times from Ely to Kings Cross (image shows very poor performance of the services, on a 5 minute late basis, more delayed than ran on time).
Only one London commuter train has a decent performance, at 95%, the rest are mostly between 45-60%.
My spreadsheet of doom shows cumulative delays on my commute (both ways) stands at 899 minutes in the 10 months of this season ticket.

 

[bramling]

Similarly, I've just had a look at the equivalent 4-week running punctuality stats for the weekday commuting times from Ely to Kings Cross (image shows very poor performance of the services, on a 5 minute late basis, more delayed than ran on time).
Only one London commuter train has a decent performance, at 95%, the rest are mostly between 45-60%.
My spreadsheet of doom shows cumulative delays on my commute (both ways) stands at 899 minutes in the 10 months of this season ticket.
View attachment 193111

Goodness those statistics are absolutely appalling. It would be interesting to compare with the period around 2010-2015 under FCC, when performance on the GN route was generally very good.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

?Another core problem tonight Southbound City Thameslink to Blackfriars. Usual service reductions applied but appears to me that POSAs aren't used the same way as driver stops at each signal before the flashing white lights are illuminated. Perhaps this was always the operating protocol?

 

[Bald Rick]

?Another core problem tonight Southbound City Thameslink to Blackfriars. Usual service reductions applied but appears to me that POSAs aren't used the same way as driver stops at each signal before the flashing white lights are illuminated. Perhaps this was always the operating protocol?

No - the operating protocol is different under ETCS. This is being resolved, but is not straightforward.

Also an issue with a trespasser at Blackfriars who decided the thing to do to answer an urgent call of nature was to jump on to the tracks to do so…

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

24hrs on the signalling fault isn't resolved so usual service curtailment and significant delays imported into the South side but at least some attempts to amend calling patterns to cover for missing services..

 

[bramling]

So today there’s just been a fatality at Stevenage, no doubt that will be the job wrecked for the remainder of the day.

However an appalling display from GTR staff at Letchworth just now. Extremely rudely evacuating the station, telling everyone “you have to leave the station, there won’t be any trains for the rest of the day”. No attempt to provide any information or alternatives, just tipping everyone out and closing the doors.

You know what, frankly I’d rather stations were unstaffed, more use being left to own devices than having to deal with staff whose existence is essentially pointless.

UPDATE: so 9S33, which was stuck between Letchworth and Hitchin now appears to have done a wrong direction move back to Letchworth, and is now returning to Cambridge, presumably in service. So much for the “no more trains for the rest of the day”. The staff attitude seems very indicative of GTR as a whole, it’s the same at King’s Cross during disruption when everyone seems to just disappear into thin air. It’s like, something has happened, let’s just shut up shop for the rest of the day.

 

[JonathanH]

As it has been mentioned, it is interesting to see how the service has been put away.

9J38 1255 Horsham to Peterborough terminated at Redhill and gone back southbound.

Similarly 9J40 half an hour behind is terminating at Redhill. 9J36 half an hour ahead got to Finsbury Park, 9J34 also terminated there. 9J42 didn't leave Horsham.

I guess a Redhill to Horsham shuttle will be set up to the extent possible.

 

[bramling]

As it has been mentioned, it is interesting to see how the service has been put away.

9J38 1255 Horsham to Peterborough terminated at Redhill and gone back southbound.

Similarly 9J40 half an hour behind is terminating at Redhill. 9J36 half an hour ahead got to Finsbury Park, 9J34 also terminated there. 9J42 didn't leave Horsham.

I guess a Redhill to Horsham shuttle will be set up to the extent possible.

From what I can see, there’s 9J35, which is sitting at Sandy and has been for the duration. Apart from this and the two services which were already out on the Cambridge line, there is now nothing between Cambridge/Peterborough and Hitchin.

Okay to be fair there’s 1A63 blocking the platform at Hitchin, but nonetheless there seems to be zero attempt to provide any form of usable service. Frankly this just isn’t good enough. GTR does seem to be just put up the closed sign in the shop window and give up, and clearly (at least some of) their staff feel that this is acceptable standard practice, which says a lot about GTR as a whole.

Just having a wider look, I see there isn’t much between Cambridge and Kings Lynn either.

 

[jon0844]

Not sure why there was the assumption no trains will run for the rest of the day (similar was said Saturday just gone, but the service was mostly restored after 1930 until the end of service), but it's clearly going to be disrupted for some time - and like any incident that happens around this time, the focus will be on trying to get stock and drivers into the right places for the peak service?

Stevenage can run some services south from platform 5 but the main station is closed, so it's pretty much just services on the loop for now.

 

[bramling]

Not sure why there was the assumption no trains will run for the rest of the day, but it's clearly going to be disrupted for some hours - and like any incident that happens around this time, the focus will be on trying to get stock and drivers into the right places for the peak service?

I felt it was more a way of the station staff just getting rid of everyone as a way of avoiding aggravation. Not exactly the most sensible strategy as they probably got more aggravation, and to be fair quite reasonably so.

“We are dealing with a fatality so can you get out of the station”. Er, no, the staff at Stevenage are dealing with a fatality, *you* aren’t, which is a fair point.

 

[jon0844]

Does sound like an overreaction. If there are absolutely zero trains then by all means get people back to the booking hall to give information there (and get people onto buses or into taxis) but why say there will be no trains for the rest of the day? Do staff have no faith that a service can be restored when something happened early afternoon?

 

[bramling]

Does sound like an overreaction. If there are absolutely zero trains then by all means get people back to the booking hall to give information there (and get people onto buses or into taxis) but why say there will be no trains for the rest of the day? Do staff have no faith that a service can be restored when something happened early afternoon?

I can get that they know it will probably take a while, however by kicking people out of the station it essentially means people have no means of travelling when things do restore. Clearly there will be some kind of service at some point today, as indeed there have been a couple of trains which have returned from Letchworth to Cambridge. Locking people out of the station just aggravated the situation.

People won’t make a fuss is they feel staff are trying their best or genuinely can do nothing to resolve the situation. But quite reasonable people will react badly if they feel the staff are just being belligerent, which was very much the case at Letchworth.

(I see 1W20 has been allowed to depart King’s Cross. I wonder if this is conveying a replacement driver for the incident train.)

 

[JonathanH]

Clearly there will be some kind of service at some point today, as indeed there have been a couple of trains which have returned from Letchworth to Cambridge. Locking people out of the station just aggravated the situation.

The disruption information on the Thameslink website certainly implied a Letchworth to Cambridge shuttle would be set up.

 

[jon0844]

Stevenage station is now fully open again.

 

[bramling]

The disruption information on the Thameslink website certainly implied a Letchworth to Cambridge shuttle would be set up.

I don’t believe it happened, and if it did no one would have been able to access it at Letchworth from the outside world!

Looks like they are now resuming. Be interesting to see what sort of service exists for the rest of the day.

EDIT: there is a 1Z43 which left Cambridge a while ago which appears to be doing a trip to Letchworth and back. Whether this gets altered remains to be seen.

 

[JonathanH]

Looks like they are now resuming. Be interesting to see what sort of service exists for the rest of the day.

Peterborough to Horsham will be very sparse. Four units berthed in Horsham sidings. Service appears to resume from Horsham at 1654 for Peterborough, the 1624 and 1724 currently advertised as only going to Redhill.

 

[bramling]

Peterborough to Horsham will be very sparse. Four units berthed in Horsham sidings. Service appears to resume from Horsham at 1654 for Peterborough, the 1624 and 1724 currently advertised as only going to Redhill.

So the latest farce … a Cambridge to Letchworth return trip has indeed run, and just discharged a train load of passengers from Cambridge at Letchworth who had been told to change there for London…

…meanwhile Letchworth staff are telling people to take the train to Cambridge and use GA to reach London.

Looks like a 700 has just left Peterborough for London. No idea where it’s stopping. Presumably going to KX vice Horsham.

GTR just can’t cope with disruption. Yes a fatality at Stevenage is unfortunate, but it’s a run-of-the-mill event. Their whole company structure just cannot handle situations.

EDIT 45 mins since all clear, nothing GTR has left Cambridge for London. Surely there would be a mess-room full of drivers at Cambridge, with someone being due to take a train to London some time this afternoon?

 

[GordonT]

EDIT 45 mins since all clear, nothing GTR has left Cambridge for London. Surely there would be a mess-room full of drivers at Cambridge, with someone being due to take a train to London some time this afternoon?

Amply bears out the thrust of the thread title.

 

[MikeWM]

EDIT 45 mins since all clear, nothing GTR has left Cambridge for London. Surely there would be a mess-room full of drivers at Cambridge, with someone being due to take a train to London some time this afternoon?

Looks like they finally managed to send a stopper and then a 'fast' out of Cambridge just after 1700. But the fact they didn't get anything else heading that way is presumably part of the reason they've now apparently only managed to send one service northbound to Cambridge, at around 1630, and nothing since to Cambridge (it is currently 1750) from either Kings Cross or St Pancras. In the evening peak!

As we've said many times on this thread, their recovery is truly dismal compared to pretty much any other TOC. Two hours after an incident was cleared, Greater Anglia for example would be basically back to normal.


Edit : looks like they've just sent out 2C50 from KGX, 16 late, first train to Cambridge in over 90 minutes. 1T50 meanwhile has been sitting on platform 0 for whatever reason for a very long time ('waiting for driver' according to posts on Twitter) and is now over 35 minutes late - fortunately I won't be waiting like a fool at CMB to catch this as I'm working from home today.

 

[saismee]

People won’t make a fuss is they feel staff are trying their best or genuinely can do nothing to resolve the situation.

Two hours after an incident was cleared, Greater Anglia for example would be basically back to normal.

I think this is a little bit of an unfair comparison as GA operate a bit differently to TL/GN, and don't inter-mingle much with other operators. Though GA control seem to manage the crew very well and cover as many stations as they can with SSOs while other services are shot.

 

[MikeWM]

I think this is a little bit of an unfair comparison as GA operate a bit differently to TL/GN, and don't inter-mingle much with other operators.

I'd accept GN being a bit worse for that reason - if services were delayed or even if a substantial % of them were cancelled.

But not managing to run *a single train* between London and Cambridge between 1630 and 1800 on a weekday evening - when there should be 9 services in that time - simply isn't good enough. If it were a one-off, maybe, but it happens again and again whenever there is disruption (hence the number of posts in this thread...)

As an obvious example, 1T50 is *still* at platform 0 at Kings Cross, now almost an hour late, just sitting there. Can they really not find a single driver to take this out at least as far as Cambridge? Edit : it's just left, 60 down (so is effectively now the 1839 rather than the 1739 - the 1809 was cancelled, presumably now the real 1839 will also be).

 

[bramling]

I think this is a little bit of an unfair comparison as GA operate a bit differently to TL/GN, and don't inter-mingle much with other operators. Though GA control seem to manage the crew very well and cover as many stations as they can with SSOs while other services are shot.

I’m not going to compare with GA as I don’t use them. However whatever the disruption, the performance from the staff at Letchworth this afternoon was absolutely abominable. Essentially just flip the sign to closed and tell everyone to clear off was what happened.

That sort of behaviour might have been reasonable at Stevenage, where the actual incident was, but it’s unacceptable elsewhere.

Frankly the staff were more of hindrance than any use at all, and it would have been preferable if they hadn’t been there and the station been unstaffed. That’s GTR all over.

A fatality is a run-of-the-mill event. Yes it’s tragic and unfortunate, but it’s also something the railway should be able to handle without descending into complete and utter carnage. And the actual fatality seems to have been resolved in a reasonable time, as ever it’s the complete meltdown of any form of viable service essentially on the whole route that’s unacceptable.

 

[saismee]

the performance from the staff at Letchworth this afternoon was absolutely abominable

It sounds like they have an entirely customer-blind attitude. At my GA stations we communicate as well as we can and try to suggest routes on a case-by-case basis based on time criticality and cost for the passenger. Cable theft near Romford comes to mind and TL/GN were used extensively for getting people to London. Ticket acceptance was immediate.

I'm surprised routing people via Cambridge to Liverpool Street wasn't immediately the go-to advice, it seems like the only sensible route.

Of course, there's a clear failing by control as they couldn't get crew in the right places quick enough (at all?) to retain any service. I don't use GN/TL except Ely to King's Lynn which is patchy enough. It's genuinely the most miserable part of that journey, and not just because of the shock of changing from a FLIRT to an Electrostar!