Seriously, how can anyone use the railway for long distance commuting?

[Starmill]

I wonder if there might be an element of London-based vs. not-London-based in all this, because of the typically longer commutes around London compared to if the office was in a Manchester suburb where most probably commute by car and typically with journeys of half an hour or less? Even the rail timetables around here are based around 9am starts - for instance the first semifast London service from Bletchley is the 0701 arriving at Euston at 0738, which would to be fair get me to my office by 8 (just, but certainly not ready for a meeting!) but if heading to the City proper would probably be pushing being ready for a meeting before 0830. There are stoppers from around 0300, but with those taking just over an hour you're talking needing to leave a lot earlier to get into the office just a bit earlier (though some may choose to do so now it means it's off peak under Oval contactless payment).

I've worked in a range of non-London offices across England. They were all exactly what you suggest. People start when they please from 0700 to about 0930. They go home approximately 8 1/2 hours after they started, sometimes a tad more sometimes a tad less, and over the course of a month it evens out.

I've never worked with or known anyone who consistently worked short hours, and that includes the full range of people who started at 7 vs half 9. Meetings are tolerated by everyone at 9, as they're booked in at least a day ahead so people know what time to get in for. They're preferred at 0930 or afterwards, and could be arranged for before 9 if business critical. People wouldn't send meeting invites at 0800 without asking first, or at least giving rationale why that's the only time it can happen. If the rationale is there then people will accept it.

 

[43096]

Your place is into early starts then! I don't think I've ever had an 8am meeting, the assumption is that most will aim to start at 9 but meetings tend to be 9:30 at the earliest so that people aren't in a rush on getting in (if in the office). You get 9 sometimes but not often, it's usually a last-resort slot for when you can't otherwise get that person any time soon, and usually comes with profuse apologies!

Different cultures. At our place 9am meetinsg are absolutely normal and not regarded as early.

Certainly the first day of workshops and the likes (which people often quote as a reason for needing the Sleeper, for example) being a 9am start is for me very, very rare, not least because the person organising needs to get in and prepare to welcome visitors in person. Later days may start at 9 though.

That's probably similar to me experience - although a 9am start on day one of such events wouldn't be unusual.

I wonder if there might be an element of London-based vs. not-London-based in all this, because of the typically longer commutes around London compared to if the office was in a Manchester suburb where most probably commute by car and typically with journeys of half an hour or less? Even the rail timetables around here are based around 9am starts - for instance the first semifast London service from Bletchley is the 0701 arriving at Euston at 0738, which would to be fair get me to my office by 8 (just, but certainly not ready for a meeting!) but if heading to the City proper would probably be pushing being ready for a meeting before 0830. There are stoppers from around 0300, but with those taking just over an hour you're talking needing to leave a lot earlier to get into the office just a bit earlier (though some may choose to do so now it means it's off peak under Oval contactless payment).

To put a spanner in the works, my experience is London based! I think there is a difference between London and outside London. Outside London any commute of 45mins or more is regarded as long, whereas London longer is accepted as being quite normal. For me, Covid was a blessing in this regard as my commute is/was around 1hr45 door-to-door each way (now 2hr in the evening thanks to SWR's **** timetable) so WFH was a major quality of life improvement. I'm now on a home-based contract so they have to pay my travel when I go in - working on projects across the world makes being in an office daily utterly pointless. Which means my rail use has dropped massively.

 

[yorksrob]

In my experience of such people, it is tolerated - just - by others because they invariably expect those who get in at a sensible time to be available in the evenings for their meetings. In other words, a one-way street.

Must be a pretty slack place! In my experience, 9am meetings are absolutely normal and regular. Indeed, meetings anytime from 8am are quite usual.

No one with any sense books a meeting at 9:00 if they can avoid it. Less ridiculous than a Friday afternoon I suppose.

 

[Russel]

No one with any sense books a meeting at 9:00 if they can avoid it. Less ridiculous than a Friday afternoon I suppose.

My daily teams meeting is 0830, every morning!

It's not actually too bad though, getting it out of the way nice and early leaves the rest of the day free to plan accordingly.

 

[yorksrob]

My daily teams meeting is 0830, every morning!

It's not actually too bad though, getting it out of the way nice and early leaves the rest of the day free to plan accordingly.

I'd rather have my breakfast unencumbered personally.

 

[AndrewE]

My daily teams meeting is 0830, every morning!
It's not actually too bad though, getting it out of the way nice and early leaves the rest of the day free to plan accordingly.

I'd rather have my breakfast unencumbered personally.

What? My breakfast is usually over well before 0830 - and I have been retired for over 10 years now...

 

[Starmill]

What? My breakfast is usually over well before 0830 - and I have been retired for over 10 years now...

It's almost as if people's daily routine is a personal choice around which to fit work and other things, rather than a rigid structure to which all must conform. And in other news...

 

[Russel]

It's almost as if people's daily routine is a personal choice around which to fit work and other things, rather than a rigid structure to which all must conform. And in other news...

I skip breakfast and go straight to an early lunch at about 11!

 

[43096]

No one with any sense books a meeting at 9:00 if they can avoid it. Less ridiculous than a Friday afternoon I suppose.

Part-timer!!!!

 

[Bald Rick]

No one with any sense books a meeting at 9:00 if they can avoid it. Less ridiculous than a Friday afternoon I suppose.

!

I'd rather have my breakfast unencumbered personally.

!!!!


My first meeting slot is 0830, 0800 by exception.

Breakfast is done by 0645 Monday - Saturday without exception.

 

[Annetts key]

If this topic has degraded into arguments about breakfast time, when I was on early's, breakfast was typically at about 07:00 at my workplace messroom.

Now that I'm retired, it's normally between 09:30 and 10:30. Unless I'm going out for the day, in which case, it's earlier.

 

[yorksrob]

What? My breakfast is usually over well before 0830 - and I have been retired for over 10 years now...

Part-timer!!!!

I have breakfast in town after the commute, so I'm still a reasonably early riser.

!


!!!!


My first meeting slot is 0830, 0800 by exception.

Breakfast is done by 0645 Monday - Saturday without exception.

That's not enough time to read the news ! - although I can see that for managing a railway you'd need meetings at funny times.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I believe when the IC125/HSTs fist came out, people were commuting from at least Bath. I would not like it - but there you go.

 

[sh24]

I believe when the IC125/HSTs fist came out, people were commuting from at least Bath. I would not like it - but there you go.

I worked with 2 people who did Bath-London on a daily basis. Not for me, but it worked for them. Our office was walking distance from Paddington which helped.

 

[The exile]

I believe when the IC125/HSTs fist came out, people were commuting from at least Bath. I would not like it - but there you go.

Seem to remember that prior to HSTs there was only a small band of Swindon - London commuters. Within a few years a comparable number were commuting from Weston-s-Mare.
Bath - Paddington is only about 30 minutes more than Bath - Bristol Parkway (if the through services are at the wrong time). Costs a bit more though!

 

[Turtle]

I worked with 2 people who did Bath-London on a daily basis. Not for me, but it worked for them. Our office was walking distance from Paddington which helped.

I also had a colleague who commuted daily from Bath to London's Fitzrovia in the mid 1980s.

 

[43096]

Seem to remember that prior to HSTs there was only a small band of Swindon - London commuters. Within a few years a comparable number were commuting from Weston-s-Mare.
Bath - Paddington is only about 30 minutes more than Bath - Bristol Parkway (if the through services are at the wrong time). Costs a bit more though!

Which illustrates, again, why the HST was so significant not just to the railway but to the country as a whole. It literally enabled a change in the way people lived and worked.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Which illustrates, again, why the HST was so significant not just to the railway but to the country as a whole. It literally enabled a change in the way people lived and worked.

Absolutely no doubt in my mind HSTs were a major game changer. I would hate to commute down the M4 even in a very comfortable car.

 

[Topological]

Absolutely no doubt in my mind HSTs were a major game changer. I would hate to commute down the M4 even in a very comfortable car.

That raises a good point about what the motorways are like now. It would be interesting to know whether the M4 is actually that bad as it crosses the M25.

Relatedly, commuting to Bristol from South Wales seems to mess Newport up and then there always seems to be traffic getting onto the M32. I would always try to be ahead of all of that, or wait until it has cleared if making my way East.

 

[Bald Rick]

That raises a good point about what the motorways are like now. It would be interesting to know whether the M4 is actually that bad as it crosses the M25.

Generally - appalling. For example, if I want to get to the central terminal area at Heathrow from St Albans, (M25, M4, Airport Spur), which is 28 miles:

30 mins if no traffic (2100-0600 overnight, or before 0900 at weekends)
45-60mins in average traffic (middle of weekdays, most of weekend daytime)
anything up to 2hrs peak times.

Much, much more reliable to use Thameslink and Liz Line. 75 mins.

 

[Topological]

Generally - appalling. For example, if I want to get to the central terminal area at Heathrow from St Albans, (M25, M4, Airport Spur), which is 28 miles:

30 mins if no traffic (2100-0600 overnight, or before 0900 at weekends)
45-60mins in average traffic (middle of weekdays, most of weekend daytime)
anything up to 2hrs peak times.

Much, much more reliable to use Thameslink and Liz Line. 75 mins.

I do feel lucky that Heathrow from Swansea does not involve any M25. Had to go to Luton once, that was once too many.

As you say, Thameslink is great, as is the Elizabeth Line. I wonder therefore, how much the mainline expresses drive commuting patterns when the option to get to the M25* and park up exists. When living in Leicester, Harlington used to be a nice station to use for Thameslink (for example).

For example, I could have a nice house in the Cotswolds and drive to a TfL station, or be constrained slightly by mainline stations and commuting on the mainline trains.

 

[Bald Rick]

For example, I could have a nice house in the Cotswolds and drive to a TfL station, or be constrained slightly by mainline stations and commuting on the mainline trains.

The strategic road network approaching London in the morning peak is pretty bad everywhere. And that morning peak starts at 0630 or even earlier in some places. The M40 is perhaps the best of the bunch on the west side; I know someone who drives to Hillingdon (Met Line) from Worcestershire when needed in the office, albeit he is at Hillingdon for 0700.

 

[Topological]

The strategic road network approaching London in the morning peak is pretty bad everywhere. And that morning peak starts at 0630 or even earlier in some places. The M40 is perhaps the best of the bunch on the west side; I know someone who drives to Hillingdon (Met Line) from Worcestershire when needed in the office, albeit he is at Hillingdon for 0700.

I think anyone commuting in would do similar.

But then is it really that different from needing to be at Bristol Parkway or Swindon to get a train to Paddington and then a tube? You would still go early for those options.

If I have to be in London I take the 0345 from Swansea, or drive at a similar time.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

My daughter was commuting by car to Manchester city centre close to Piccadilly. I went with her once or twice to get train from there to airport when I was living in the USA. I much preferred getting a train from Preston direct to the airport. So it is not just London bound commutes that can be horrendous.

 

[Topological]

My daughter was commuting by car to Manchester city centre close to Piccadilly. I went with her once or twice to get train from there to airport when I was living in the USA. I much preferred getting a train from Preston direct to the airport. So it is not just London bound commutes that can be horrendous.

Preston is a great place to commute into Manchester from, especially since electrification of the Chat Moss allowed Transpennine to use more than single 185s. These days there are so many more carriages between the two.

I always look at the stationary Mancunian Way when walking to Piccadilly and think that people must be mad driving in that if there was a train option.

It is interesting to see how many commute in on the TfW from Shrewsbury onwards.

 

[The exile]

That raises a good point about what the motorways are like now. It would be interesting to know whether the M4 is actually that bad as it crosses the M25.

Relatedly, commuting to Bristol from South Wales seems to mess Newport up and then there always seems to be traffic getting onto the M32. I would always try to be ahead of all of that, or wait until it has cleared if making my way East.

Even without the issue of traffic density, I have to rate the M4 English section as the most tedious Motorway I've ever driven. Unfortunately it's also one of the ones I have to drive the most often - but that opinion was formed on my first ever journey on it, so it's not down to familiarity.

 

[Tetragon213]

No one with any sense books a meeting at 9:00 if they can avoid it. Less ridiculous than a Friday afternoon I suppose.

9am meetings for me are the exception rather than the norm, but perfectly within the usual rules. It's Friday afternoon meetings which are the big no-no without a really flipping good reason for it.

Absolutely no doubt in my mind HSTs were a major game changer. I would hate to commute down the M4 even in a very comfortable car.

I would assume they also made a huge difference on the ECML. Retford-London would probably have been just about doable I suspect, maybe even Doncaster if the pay was right. But my lord would it have to be one heck of a pay packet just to cover the season ticket alone. I imagine it would be a lot cheaper, even taking into account "business rates" of mileage, to drive in over taking the train.

 

[Russel]

Shall we talk about the state of Thameslink over the last few days?

 

[Uncle Buck]

The strategic road network approaching London in the morning peak is pretty bad everywhere. And that morning peak starts at 0630 or even earlier in some places. The M40 is perhaps the best of the bunch on the west side; I know someone who drives to Hillingdon (Met Line) from Worcestershire when needed in the office, albeit he is at Hillingdon for 0700.

Not just London. I recently had an appointment in Edinburgh (in a part with no rail access) at 9am on a weekday. I left Glasgow by car at 6.45 for peace of mind. I missed the appointment.

 

[43096]

I would assume they also made a huge difference on the ECML. Retford-London would probably have been just about doable I suspect, maybe even Doncaster if the pay was right. But my lord would it have to be one heck of a pay packet just to cover the season ticket alone. I imagine it would be a lot cheaper, even taking into account "business rates" of mileage, to drive in over taking the train.

But, the payback is property prices would be lower, as would the cost of living.