Might the Whitehaven tunnel issues result in closure? Could Whitehaven be brought back into use? And other speculation on this issue...

[35B]

I disagree that its over-dramatic to point out that the railway is an important transport link for the region. In terms of Grantham's A&E, they could point to any number of potential mass casualty events as a reason for staying open, however my knowledge of NHS issues is limited, so I wouldn't know whether the next one is too far away.

The point is not whether it's an important transport link for the region (on which views may differ), but on the implication of its removal. Your suggested comparison was that removal of that one mode of through travel would be equivalent to the removal of all healthcare services, which is a simply nonsensical comparison of scale.

I don't think the InterCity main line to Scotland should be taken as a comparator for regional routes. Those 700 a day won't all be the same people every day, so they could represent a much larger proportion of the population. Its also possible that usage of the route is depressed by a relatively sparse service.

If we just take the electorate of the Whitehaven and Workington constituency (so artificially lowering the comparative population), that is 700 people per day from a population of 73,000. Even if they all only use it one way, that would be 1% of locals using the train. If we are trying to measure this in terms of its ability to cause a political impact, it's unlikely to be measurable at the ballot box.

 

[yorksrob]

The point is not whether it's an important transport link for the region (on which views may differ), but on the implication of its removal. Your suggested comparison was that removal of that one mode of through travel would be equivalent to the removal of all healthcare services, which is a simply nonsensical comparison of scale.

If we just take the electorate of the Whitehaven and Workington constituency (so artificially lowering the comparative population), that is 700 people per day from a population of 73,000. Even if they all only use it one way, that would be 1% of locals using the train. If we are trying to measure this in terms of its ability to cause a political impact, it's unlikely to be measurable at the ballot box.

On the contrary, you compare the removal of one aspect of healthcare that is part of a multi-layered blanket of health provision over an area, with the only viable long distance public transport link for the whole area (it's far too long as a bus service). That is a nonsensical comparison of effect.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If we just take the electorate of the Whitehaven and Workington constituency (so artificially lowering the comparative population), that is 700 people per day from a population of 73,000. Even if they all only use it one way, that would be 1% of locals using the train. If we are trying to measure this in terms of its ability to cause a political impact, it's unlikely to be measurable at the ballot box.

I'd imagine that the majority of people who were objecting to the removal of the 0700 Manchester-Euston had never used it and were never likely to use it. Extrapolate to here...

 

[eldomtom2]

I'd imagine that the majority of people who were objecting to the removal of the 0700 Manchester-Euston had never used it and were never likely to use it. Extrapolate to here...

Plus there's always the "if they close this line, what will they close next?" argument, which I imagine could generate a lot of opposition...

 

[35B]

On the contrary, you compare the removal of one aspect of healthcare that is part of a multi-layered blanket of health provision over an area, with the only viable long distance public transport link for the whole area (it's far too long as a bus service). That is a nonsensical comparison of effect.

Public transport is not the same as all transport. If the railway is removed, there are other ways of travelling. In just the same way, if there is no A&E service in a place, other forms of healthcare remain. They may be equally flawed for the purpose of the removed service, but the fact remains that they exist.

 

[HSTEd]

Yeah, I'll believe that when I see it.

Deteriorating ground conditions did for the A625 over Mam Tor at the end of the day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Deteriorating ground conditions did for the A625 over Mam Tor at the end of the day.

It happens where repeated repair is unsuccessful. Not often though.

 

[Egg Centric]

How much of the £35 million* would be needed to make the tunnel safe for pedestrians/cyclists? If it were substanitally cheaper then there's a possible half way house where it is done to that standard till we have more cash - maybe with free e-bikes/e-scooters provided at either end. If the latter were implemented it could even become a tourist attraction in its own right, I don't think there's anywhere in the UK open to the public you can ride an e-scooter in a tunnel.

This is not an entirely serious suggestion, but it's a lot better than closing it fully because if *that* happens it will never reopen.

*Unless I missed it I don't think that that was actually being said to be the price of this and it will likely be higher

 

[OhNoAPacer]

Any decision, on any subject, that only impacts locally can still be used nationally.
"Look what they have done to West Cumbria, if they cam do it to them then they can do it to you".
"Typical of this government not spending money for rail servuces for working class people but look at the billions wasted on the rich man's HS2".

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Deteriorating ground conditions did for the A625 over Mam Tor at the end of the day.

Technically it was underneath Mam Tor, but yes. Nowadays, the section of former A625 roadway looks like an exterior set from a Californian earthquake movie. Has to be seen to be believed. Permanently closed to road traffic in, or around, mid 1979.

 

[duffield]

Plus there's always the "if they close this line, what will they close next?" argument, which I imagine could generate a lot of opposition...

Exactly, a very important point. A long period (20+ years?) has passed with effectively no closures** occurring or even considered, it is a political threshold that would be seen by rail campaigners and users of lightly used or heavily subsidised lines as something that once crossed could open the floodgates.

So although it directly affects only a few people it could easily blow up into an issue of national significance. Personally I think it's vanishingly unlikely that the current government could both sanction permanent closure and then sustain that decision in the face of the likely opposition.

Of course, all bets are off if/when we get an entirely different sort of government seriously bent on massively slashing public spending; but then we'd probably be talking about Beeching MK2, not the odd line.

** I really wouldn't count something like the final official closure of the Weymouth Quay branch in 2017, for example, as it last saw a train in 1999, or indeed closure of any station which had effectively been closed for many years or rendered entirely redundant like IBM.

 

[yorksrob]

Deteriorating ground conditions did for the A625 over Mam Tor at the end of the day.

I did mention this a few posts back, however that was the mid 1970's and that section of road had a long history of failed repairs.

The two aren't a very good comparison.

 

[brad465]

Perhaps if some new towns were proposed along this route it would up the patronage and improve the case for sorting it out. However given how prone the Cumbrian coast is to flooding, from both the sea and the Lake District rivers, any town here would have to be built like Venice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps if some new towns were proposed along this route it would up the patronage and improve the case for sorting it out. However given how prone the Cumbrian coast is to flooding, from both the sea and the Lake District rivers, any town here would have to be built like Venice.

There's not the employment. That's why it's so poor.

 

[StoneRoad]

Two industries - Sellafield and ... well, not tourism in Whitehaven although the Western Lakes are very much under visited compared to, say Windermere.

 

[HSTEd]

In hindsight probably would have been better for the Workington-Penrith route to be retained rather than Workington-Carlisle. That section would have a lot of summer traffic!

As it is I think a slavish attempt to retain the status quo is a mistake. If separating into two branches allows service improvements (especially using the tunnel works cost) we should do that

 

[StoneRoad]

If the decision is made to close the tunnel, then some decent arrangement needs to be made for through passengers, and one aspect of that is to improve the access / layout of the forecourt at Whitehaven, you can't reliably turn anything larger than a minibus in there at the moment. {which is why the RRB runs from outside 'spoons}.

It's not any easy walk, either !

 

[Pinus contorta]

Th

If the decision is made to close the tunnel, then some decent arrangement needs to be made for through passengers, and one aspect of that is to improve the access / layout of the forecourt at Whitehaven, you can't reliably turn anything larger than a minibus in there at the moment. {which is why the RRB runs from outside 'spoons}.

It's not any easy walk, either !

You're not wrong there. The pelican crossing across to the RRB stop outside the Wetherspoons has to be one of the most dangerous pedestrian crossings I've ever used in the UK. Drivers coming out of the Tesco supermarket routinely sail
through red lights when youre half way walking across the road on the green man.

That's after you have walked across from the station ( no real pavement to speak of) and negotiated your way past the Tesco filling station nearby.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another possibility to throw into the pot here.

I can't find anything online about it, but it very much looks on a map/aerial view like a branch line to the docks at Whitehaven used to branch off just before Corkickle station. What appears to be the former trackbed is now a cycle path.

Would there potentially be merit in extending the railway onto this branch, replacing the line through the tunnel, and thus providing a new (single platform and bus shelter) Whitehaven South* station slightly nearer town to ease the walk between the two, reducing it to maybe about 600m on the flat?

Similarly it looks like you could possibly move Whitehaven station itself about 100-200m south, as only car parks are in the way of doing so on the bay platform side, with its location otherwise just constrained by the tunnel? The lost car parking could be replaced by filling in the former trackbed to the tunnel.

* "Whitehaven Trinity Gardens"? Sounds quite important

 

[35B]

Another possibility to throw into the pot here.

I can't find anything online about it, but it very much looks on a map/aerial view like a branch line to the docks at Whitehaven used to branch off just before Corkickle station. What appears to be the former trackbed is now a cycle path.

Would there potentially be merit in extending the railway onto this branch, replacing the line through the tunnel, and thus providing a new (single platform and bus shelter) Whitehaven South* station slightly nearer town to ease the walk between the two, reducing it to maybe about 600m on the flat?

Similarly it looks like you could possibly move Whitehaven station itself about 100-200m south, as only car parks are in the way of doing so on the bay platform side, with its location otherwise just constrained by the tunnel? The lost car parking could be replaced by filling in the former trackbed to the tunnel.

* "Whitehaven Trinity Gardens"? Sounds quite important

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preston_Street_railway_station for the goods station history, and also reference to the goods branches from both Furness and Whitehaven Junction lines down to the harbour.

 

[Egg Centric]

Another possibility to throw into the pot here.

I can't find anything online about it, but it very much looks on a map/aerial view like a branch line to the docks at Whitehaven used to branch off just before Corkickle station. What appears to be the former trackbed is now a cycle path.

Would there potentially be merit in extending the railway onto this branch, replacing the line through the tunnel, and thus providing a new (single platform and bus shelter) Whitehaven South* station slightly nearer town to ease the walk between the two, reducing it to maybe about 600m on the flat?

Similarly it looks like you could possibly move Whitehaven station itself about 100-200m south, as only car parks are in the way of doing so on the bay platform side, with its location otherwise just constrained by the tunnel? The lost car parking could be replaced by filling in the former trackbed to the tunnel.

* "Whitehaven Trinity Gardens"? Sounds quite important

Wouldn't that suck for people in Corkickle? I assume you'd be closing it.

 

[30907]

Its also possible that usage of the route is depressed by a relatively sparse service.

An approximately hourly service (which the line had for several years up to the tunnel closure) is perfectly adequate for the route.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wouldn't that suck for people in Corkickle? I assume you'd be closing it.

That would be the downside, though you could consider a replacement Corkickle station if there is room for one. It looks like there are a few potential locations. But then are you getting up to the cost of fixing the tunnel then?

I do note on social media that there's celebration about the introduction of a bus service from Barrow to Whitehaven up the main road which serves far more centres of population than the railway, though - I do rather suspect that we might end up seeing closure west of Millom once the freight purpose at Sellafield is done with.

 

[HSTEd]

Another possibility to throw into the pot here.

I can't find anything online about it, but it very much looks on a map/aerial view like a branch line to the docks at Whitehaven used to branch off just before Corkickle station. What appears to be the former trackbed is now a cycle path.

Would there potentially be merit in extending the railway onto this branch, replacing the line through the tunnel, and thus providing a new (single platform and bus shelter) Whitehaven South* station slightly nearer town to ease the walk between the two, reducing it to maybe about 600m on the flat?

Similarly it looks like you could possibly move Whitehaven station itself about 100-200m south, as only car parks are in the way of doing so on the bay platform side, with its location otherwise just constrained by the tunnel? The lost car parking could be replaced by filling in the former trackbed to the tunnel.

* "Whitehaven Trinity Gardens"? Sounds quite important

I thought about the route to the docks as a potential way to bypass the tunnel entirely. But from aerial photography it wasn't clear if the route from the south was clear or completely obliterated

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I can't find anything online about it, but it very much looks on a map/aerial view like a branch line to the docks at Whitehaven used to branch off just before Corkickle station. What appears to be the former trackbed is now a cycle path.

Is that what shows on the maps as cycle route 72?

It looks as if half the trackbed is occupied by supermarkets, but it does give rise to another possibility, since we're in the speculative section, but it would probably cost more than just restoring the present tunnel... which I've marked on the screenshot below.

Basically, use the extant half of that trackbed, swing off it past the supermarkets at the edge of a park area, build the line along the inner harbour wall, elevated enough to avoid most sea issues, rejoin the existing line at North Beach. Install a lifting bridge where there is an existing gap in the harbour wall ( on the assumption that a lot of boats going in and out will have tall masts ).

Replace the existing two stations with one, somewhere near the south end of the harbour.

This would allow through services to be maintained and gives a station closer to where one is needed.

However, as I said, it's likely to cost a lot more than just fixing the tunnel - much of the cost would probably be the station and lifting bridge...!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought about the route to the docks as a potential way to bypass the tunnel entirely. But from aerial photography it wasn't clear if the route from the south was clear or completely obliterated

It doesn't look like bypassing the tunnel entirely would be very easy without obliterating half of the town centre or using some sort of tram train, which are ludicrously speculative solutions even by the standards of this part of the forum. However getting a southern station far closer to the town centre should certainly be feasible given that that part of the trackbed is still there, albeit possibly at the expense of closing a (minor) road and perhaps losing a budget out of town store or two depending on exactly how close you want to get (similar, really, to getting Morecambe station back nearer to the Eden Project).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Dec 2025 ==

Is that what shows on the maps as cycle route 72?

Yep, that's the one.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Dec 2025 ==

An approximately hourly service (which the line had for several years up to the tunnel closure) is perfectly adequate for the route.

I'd say it's quite generous, to be honest, and I was surprised when it happened. The middle section is VERY rural and its former two hourly with shift-time extras seemed about right.

On the other hand, one upside of the split noted above is that you could run all services on the southern end to Manchester Airport using 195s bar the three a day when the through Windermere runs, which you can't with the through route (the issue with 195s fitting is on the northern section - indeed if you look on Google Streetview you can see a 195 laying over in Corkickle station - the pics are very recent and post-date the tunnel closure - you can even see a rail replacement bus in the car park at Whitehaven!)

 

[Rail Ranger]

As others may have already said upthread, even after the end of the nuclear flask traffic (2030?) the railway will still be needed to transport staff to and from Sellafield.

 

[StoneRoad]

Is that what shows on the maps as cycle route 72?

It looks as if half the trackbed is occupied by supermarkets, but it does give rise to another possibility, since we're in the speculative section, but it would probably cost more than just restoring the present tunnel... which I've marked on the screenshot below.

Basically, use the extant half of that trackbed, swing off it past the supermarkets at the edge of a park area, build the line along the inner harbour wall, elevated enough to avoid most sea issues, rejoin the existing line at North Beach. Install a lifting bridge where there is an existing gap in the harbour wall ( on the assumption that a lot of boats going in and out will have tall masts ).

Replace the existing two stations with one, somewhere near the south end of the harbour.

This would allow through services to be maintained and gives a station closer to where one is needed.

However, as I said, it's likely to cost a lot more than just fixing the tunnel - much of the cost would probably be the station and lifting bridge...!!

View attachment 193257

I can't see the locals going for that particular route - and that green bit to SW of the harbour is actually the top part of quite a steep hill.
Not to mention the various boats you are going over in West Strand !
A flatter route would be curving around to run on the southern side of the harbour, but would still end up as "on-road" running ...

 

[HSTEd]

As others may have already said upthread, even after the end of the nuclear flask traffic (2030?) the railway will still be needed to transport staff to and from Sellafield.

The number of on site staff has fallen precipitously with the relocation of all non directly operational staff, and is falling even more precipitously with the end of reprocessing operations.

They moved 10% of the workforce (~1000+) to an office block in Whitehaven a few years ago, and I believe more have gone since. They have also moved several hundred staff to Millom,

 

[Rail Ranger]

So staff who live in (say) Barrow still need to get to Millom and Whitehaven.