Changes needed to mitigate against the effects of Thameslink core failures

[bramling]

Isn't Bowes Park used when the Brighton services terminate at Finsbury Park for engineering work?

See https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...25-12-27/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

Seems they go in and out then wait at Alexandra Palace.

I reckon it would be risky to use it on a regular basis. The difficulty is that Bowes Park is for practical purposes the sole access to Bounds Green Depot. Furthermore, certain GTR trains also use it to access Hornsey from the country end, or the London end via Harringay up reversing siding. Currently 12-car 700s tend to do this as I believe they’re not allowed to use the Hornsey sidings due to signal sighting issues.

Ideally you’d want to be building a further reversing facility somewhere in the area, or perhaps doubling the siding at Bowes Park (assuming space allows). Unfortunetely these are the sorts of things that will need to be done if the whole Thameslink service is ever going to work reliably.

For Horsham to Peterborough this would work so much more reliably. It wouldn’t be my ideal choice though - I’d still rather just revert to a 2tph KX - Peterborough service, and preferably with 387/379s working it!

 

[Richardr]

If Horsham trains terminated at Finsbury Park and ran forward to Bowes Park siding to reverse, and Peterborough trains ran to Elephant & Castle running forward to Herne Hill siding to reverse, that would stretch the 700 fleet, so I wonder what other cuts could be made to release additional units.

It would be interesting if Thameslink operated this service one Saturday as a trial to see if it genuinely did improve matters. Passengers would still have a same platform interchange and access to the core.

South side would need 8 units. North side would need 8 units. That is a big increase on the 12 currently needed.

If successful, the same thing could be done with Cambridge to Brighton, but I don't think it could be done with the Bedford services.

Are you not doubling the number of these trains that go through the core? Instead of each train from Peterborough, for example, you replace it with both a train from Peterborough and a train starting at Finsbury Park. Can the Thameslink core, especially weekdays, cope with such an increase?

 

[JonathanH]

Are you not doubling the number of these trains that go through the core? Instead of each train from Peterborough, for example, you replace it with both a train from Peterborough and a train starting at Finsbury Park.

Yes, but one of the reasons why Peterborough to Horsham exists is to provide through journeys to central London from each side and allow 12-car trains that can't be accommodated at Kings Cross and London Bridge.

What would be taken out of Kings Cross to allow 12-car Peterborough services to be diverted there? How are 12-car services from Horsham maintained with any other finishing point north of London?

Can the Thameslink core, especially weekdays, cope with such an increase?

Is the core the primary issue with disruption or the routes leading to it?

 

[Richardr]

Yes, but one of the reasons why Peterborough to Horsham exists is to provide through journeys to central London from each side and allow 12-car trains that can't be accommodated at Kings Cross and London Bridge.

What would be taken out of Kings Cross to allow 12-car Peterborough services to be diverted there? How are 12-car services from Horsham maintained with any other finishing point north of London?


Is the core the primary issue with disruption or the routes leading to it?

All valid points of course, but my question was whether the core can cope with the increased number of trains your proposal would mean.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is the core the primary issue with disruption or the routes leading to it?

It has been the core this week, and that is what this thread is about.

 

[westcoaster]

If Horsham trains terminated at Finsbury Park and ran forward to Bowes Park siding to reverse, and Peterborough trains ran to Elephant & Castle running forward to Herne Hill siding to reverse, that would stretch the 700 fleet, so I wonder what other cuts could be made to release additional units.

It would be interesting if Thameslink operated this service one Saturday as a trial to see if it genuinely did improve matters. Passengers would still have a same platform interchange and access to the core.

South side would need 8 units. North side would need 8 units. That is a big increase on the 12 currently needed.

If successful, the same thing could be done with Cambridge to Brighton, but I don't think it could be done with the Bedford services.

But you'd still end up with the same level of disruption if not more, as you have disruption on two service patterns instead of one.
Also elephant and castle is only 8 cars long, not a sensible place to terminate an FLU.

 

[Russel]

Is today's problem still the same issue ongoing, or yet another failure?

 

[bramling]

It has been the core this week, and that is what this thread is about.

It might be the core this week, but another week it will be East Croydon, another week it might be Three Bridges, and yes another week it might be GN spreading issues to the southern region.

What matters is that these through services have proven unreliable, and frankly at times unworkable. Look at yesterday’s recovery from a lunchtime incident at Stevenage.

Who would have guessed that all this would happen?

 

[Bikeman78]

* Peterborough-Horsham is not dependable, and the lack of alternatives between Hitchin and Peterborough in particular. (There are also similar issues south of the river but I’m not going to comment on those as I’m less familiar with how this affects users in practice).

I think it would be helpful if class 700 were signed off for Victoria. Then they could divert there in times of crisis, replacing the Reigate trains if required. A 12 car is better than a four car, and Reigate still has the half hourly Reading trains if Southern cannot run a shuttle to Redhill. I wonder if it would be possible to merge Horsham drivers back to one depot. That would enable Thameslink to escape via Dorking if required.

 

[dodecahedron67]

I think it would be helpful if class 700 were signed off for Victoria. Then they could divert there in times of crisis, replacing the Reigate trains if required. A 12 car is better than a four car, and Reigate still has the half hourly Reading trains if Southern cannot run a shuttle to Redhill. I wonder if it would be possible to merge Horsham drivers back to one depot. That would enable Thameslink to escape via Dorking if required.

700s are cleared for Vic as the Sevenoaks services divert in there some weekends if the line through E&C is shut

 

[Bikeman78]

700s are cleared for Vic as the Sevenoaks services divert in there some weekends if the line through E&C is shut

Fair point but are they cleared for Streatham Common to Victoria on the Central side? I assume they are go via Streatham Common and Streatham or do all diversions run via Crystal Palace?

 

[JonathanH]

Fair point but are they cleared for Streatham Common to Victoria on the Central side? I assume they are go via Streatham Common and Streatham or do all diversions run via Crystal Palace?

Diverted 700 services routinely go via Streatham Common and Streatham when not via London Bridge. However, before 2018 they could also go via Clapham Junction and Clapham High Street. Not sure if they ever ran through Battersea Park.

Would need driver knowledge to be restored beyond Streatham Common.

 

[johncrossley]

Yet again, Southen failed to add exta stops despite severe disruption to Thameslink services.

 

[Russel]

What is the signalling problem that has been effecting the core for almost a week?

 

[Bald Rick]

Repeat track circuit failure. AIUI New components installed each time and they are going pop some time later. Monitoring kit installed to track return currents from the DC.

 

[johncrossley]

Having been very critical before, it is only fair to mention that the service seems to have improved markedly in recent times. I haven't looked at any statistics but anecdotally it seems a lot better now.