Bus stop information 'causing misery' for bus commuters

[jon0844]

Saw this story on the BBC today, and while it's written specifically about issues with Stagecoach West in Banbury, it's the same issue all over - and one of the issues I've moaned about for years.

Digital systems causing 'misery' for Banbury bus commuters

Banbury bus users are waiting for cancelled services without any information on the display screens.

www.bbc.co.uk

A problem with the system that tracks live bus journey times and displays them at bus stops is causing "misery for commuters", a councillor has said.

Labour's Andrew Crichton said bus users in Banbury, Oxfordshire, were waiting more than an hour for cancelled services, without any information on the display screens.

Stagecoach West, which runs the service, said it was aware of the problem and was "working hard" to resolve the issue.

Oxfordshire County Council, which provides the bus stop screens, said Stagecoach was failing to use the "format required" for the displays to work.

Mr Crichton described real time bus information as a "game changer" but only when the data provided was accurate.

"In this weather and at this time of year, it really is causing misery for commuters," he said.

"I hope that Stagecoach takes swift action to address this. If we want people to use public transport, it needs to be predictable and run as people expect it to."

I'm quite interested to find out more about how anyone is working to fix the issue - and note that the article does mention that the Stagecoach does manage to show cancelled services within its own app, even if the open data sent to display on other apps/bus stop displays doesn't. That's a lot better than most!

We absolutely need to have bus stop displays able to show when a bus is cancelled PLUS a bus that is terminated short to regulate a service. It's not acceptable to have people wait and wait for a bus that doesn't exist, especially when many bus companies will clearly know at the start of the day which buses cannot run due to staffing issues. Obviously other delays like traffic or breakdowns are not as predictable, but as soon as the information is known there should be a way to convey that to the public.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I know it's not ideal but really everyone should just use bustimes.org (with the local operator's app as a backup) rather than expecting boards to work anywhere other than London.

 

[Roger1973]

A few angles on this -

Most RTPI (real time passenger information) systems will default to showing the scheduled time of a departure if the system can't 'see' the bus, and if nobody has told it a journey is cancelled. The alternative (and the London system seems to work like this) is that if the system can't 'see' the bus, then it doesn't display.

Neither is perfect, the London system means that if a bus is even temporarily invisible to the system (which can happen during a driver change-over, or if the bus is in a temporary or long term dead spot, or if the box of tricks on the bus isn't working properly) then it falls off the information displays. This can be annoying if you start walking and then the bus passes you. Systems where it shows a scheduled departure time and then falls off the displays when that time passes are also annoying, as you don't know if the bus is on its way or isn't running.

Most RTPI systems can show 'cancelled' journeys, but it depends on someone at the bus operator getting this in to systems. And those systems talking to each other (or bus operators' staff putting the info in to several systems.)

I understand there is a development under way so that there's a 'disruption' element to BODS (bus open data service) so that operators can enter information in real time and it feeds all systems. I'm not sure if this is going to be smart enough to deal with things like buses being 'turned short' of their normal destination, or short term stop closures / diversions as well as simple journey cancellations.

Most real time roadside displays can have 'scrolling messages' added to the display, but in most cases these are controlled by the local authority not bus operators, and most local authorities don't have 'out of hours' cover even if bus operators pass information on.

But until bus operators have sufficient staff during all hours of operation to deal with this sort of thing (and who's going to pay for that?) and management treat it as a high enough priority to provide those staff (a few operators might, many regard all data obligations as a 'burden') it's not going to happen.

Operators won't necessarily know at start of day what won't be running - in times of extreme staff shortage they might, but if one driver doesn't report for work, efforts will be made to cover as much of their duty as possible (by overtime / rest day working etc) during the day. Similarly, a driver might report for duty at start of shift then book off sick part way through the day.

Some operators are / were reasonably good at posting real time updates on Twitter, but that's lost users for reasons I don't want to disrupt the thread with, and is generally no longer readable if you're not logged in.

I don't believe that Bus Times gets data / information that other systems don't - it's fed by what operators / local authorities do, so I don't see it - or any other third party data source - as the solution.

And not all bus users have smart phones.

 

[jon0844]

It's all a mess. Providing real time information shouldn't be something operators think doesn't need the appropriate resources to make work.

It's a feature that could well make people never use a bus.

Imagine if the railway couldn't show cancellations or adjusted stopping patterns and we just accepted it.

I'm glad it's being looked at but how can we be so slow? It's like next stop info that took ages to become a requirement and still isn't working on a lot of services. (It must be about 20 years ago when I moaned about trains without passenger information so it's been a bugbear for ages!).

I'd make it as essential as a bus having a working disabled ramp and not going around with a heap of faults and warning messages - because there should be minimum standards and appropriate funding to make things right.

One day perhaps we'll get a Government that appreciates how important doing public transport well is to the economy at large. Can't get cars off the road otherwise!

Rant over.

 

[Mikey C]

I find that provincial bus screens that aren't real time are often as much of a hindrance than a useful facility. Unless you're telling me the actual bus waiting times, it's just a paper timetable in electronic form, but one which has the added "authority" of being displayed on a screen, even if it's not actually correct.

 

[Statto]

I know it's not ideal but really everyone should just use bustimes.org (with the local operator's app as a backup) rather than expecting boards to work anywhere other than London.

Bustimes.org whilst good is not perfect, only last Tuesday the bus i wanted stopped tracking when it was in service (it was the 407 West Kirby - Liverpool which stopped tracking in Meols), only for it to turn up a couple of minutes late at my stop.

 

[jon0844]

Bustimes.org whilst good is not perfect, only last Tuesday the bus i wanted stopped tracking when it was in service (it was the 407 West Kirby - Liverpool which stopped tracking in Meols), only for it to turn up a couple of minutes late at my stop.

There can be a bigger delay than using a native bus operator app, meaning the bus you're tracking is already quite far ahead of the on-screen icon. That can mean missing a bus if you thought it was running late, but that in itself isn't a massive issue because I use the tracking mostly to check a bus exists - not to know the exact whereabouts given the limitations of the system.

 

[318266]

I know it's not ideal but really everyone should just use bustimes.org (with the local operator's app as a backup) rather than expecting boards to work anywhere other than London.

In Strathclyde, however, there's no reason to pick one over the other - its the same data source!

 

[Butts]

There's no danger of any disinformation in Falkirk as we have not got any displays anywhere at Stops as far as I know.

The last source was the Bus Station but that has been closed for years and lies almost derelict.

is a Town of our size unusual in this respect ?

 

[Jim James]

There's no danger of any disinformation in Falkirk as we have not got any displays anywhere at Stops as far as I know.

The last source was the Bus Station but that has been closed for years and lies almost derelict.

is a Town of our size unusual in this respect ?

Most place have few real time displays and many that exist do mot work

 

[Bayum]

I know it's not ideal but really everyone should just use bustimes.org (with the local operator's app as a backup) rather than expecting boards to work anywhere other than London.

Except the boards are there and Stagecoach should be supporting their functional use.

In terms of using bustimes.org, what about someone who isn’t particularly tech savvy? I find it quite confusing at tkmes, particularly if I’m sure which operator or service I’m looking for.

 

[318266]

Except the boards are there and Stagecoach should be supporting their functional use.

In terms of using bustimes.org, what about someone who isn’t particularly tech savvy? I find it quite confusing at tkmes, particularly if I’m sure which operator or service I’m looking for.

The website is in theory very simple and easy to use for those who know how the site works - it is the labour and pride of just one man, after all - however, it isn't very intuitive for new users. The simplistic UI means people miss key features such as the map or vehicle tracking. Perhaps dropping you straight onto the map would be a better idea, or integrate the map into the home page.

 

[RT4038]

It's all a mess. Providing real time information shouldn't be something operators think doesn't need the appropriate resources to make work.

The bus companies think that they do not have the money to fund the appropriate resources to make the systems work. In my county of residence the bus company does not have the resource to keep its own app up to date with cancellations (particularly when there is significant disruption), let alone any other displays provided ny other undertakings. It has a huge problem with buses not tracking / not tracking properly to resolve too. To improve this someone has got to pay for it, and it is not going to come from fares.

Imagine if the railway couldn't show cancellations or adjusted stopping patterns and we just accepted it.

Imagine if the bus industry got the same sort of subsidy that the railways get.......

Except the boards are there and Stagecoach should be supporting their functional use.

Incompatible legacy systems I expect.

But until bus operators have sufficient staff during all hours of operation to deal with this sort of thing (and who's going to pay for that?) and management treat it as a high enough priority to provide those staff (a few operators might, many regard all data obligations as a 'burden') it's not going to happen.

Big problem - who is going to fund this level of supervision and communications. Many regard data obligations as a 'burden' because it has been forced upon them without any ongoing funding to maintain them, and without good standardised systems easily operated.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Dec 2025 ==

It's all a mess. Providing real time information shouldn't be something operators think doesn't need the appropriate resources to make work.

The bus companies think that they do not have the money to fund the appropriate resources to make the systems work. In my county of residence the bus company does not have the resource to keep its own app up to date with cancellations (particularly when there is significant disruption), let alone any other displays provided ny other undertakings. It has a huge problem with buses not tracking / not tracking properly to resolve too. To improve this someone has got to pay for it, and it is not going to come from fares.

Imagine if the railway couldn't show cancellations or adjusted stopping patterns and we just accepted it.

Imagine if the bus industry got the same sort of subsidy that the railways get.......

Except the boards are there and Stagecoach should be supporting their functional use.

Incompatible legacy systems I expect.

But until bus operators have sufficient staff during all hours of operation to deal with this sort of thing (and who's going to pay for that?) and management treat it as a high enough priority to provide those staff (a few operators might, many regard all data obligations as a 'burden') it's not going to happen.

Big problem - who is going to fund this level of supervision and communications. Many regard data obligations as a 'burden' because it has been forced upon them without any ongoing funding to maintain them, and without good standardised systems easily operated.

 

[Bayum]

The bus companies think that they do not have the money to fund the appropriate resources to make the systems work. In my county of residence the bus company does not have the resource to keep its own app up to date with cancellations (particularly when there is significant disruption), let alone any other displays provided ny other undertakings. It has a huge problem with buses not tracking / not tracking properly to resolve too. To improve this someone has got to pay for it, and it is not going to come from fares.

But the BBC article states it is because Stagecoach are using an incorrect format. Other operators get it right by the sounds of things so why aren’t Stagecoach?

 

[markymark2000]

I understand there is a development under way so that there's a 'disruption' element to BODS (bus open data service) so that operators can enter information in real time and it feeds all systems. I'm not sure if this is going to be smart enough to deal with things like buses being 'turned short' of their normal destination, or short term stop closures / diversions as well as simple journey cancellations.

The system can deal with amended journeys rather than full on cancellations. There was test data being put into the system which seemed to be coming from Stagecoach, and at one point they were having part cancelled journeys. I know one example was in Exeter, for a road closure, it was saying the bus was cancelled but only from certain stops, and it transpired that this was due to a road closure so the bus was diverting. Any data sent out via the BODS system though will only be as good as what operators put into it, and it's currently not statutory for them to provide any data.

But until bus operators have sufficient staff during all hours of operation to deal with this sort of thing (and who's going to pay for that?) and management treat it as a high enough priority to provide those staff (a few operators might, many regard all data obligations as a 'burden') it's not going to happen.

I do believe it's already built into Ticketer, but not sure how many operators use it or if it currently does anything useful for operators. I'd presume that cancellation data will be inputted at local depot level by the desk people, and so the accuracy of the data would end up depending on who is on shift and how busy they are.

In my county of residence the bus company does not have the resource to keep its own app up to date with cancellations (particularly when there is significant disruption), let alone any other displays provided ny other undertakings.

In theory, the feed which is doing the app cancellations, should be the same feed which sends data to BODS. Unless operators have some strange separate feed/system.

 

[RT4038]

I do believe it's already built into Ticketer, but not sure how many operators use it or if it currently does anything useful for operators. I'd presume that cancellation data will be inputted at local depot level by the desk people, and so the accuracy of the data would end up depending on who is on shift and how busy they are.

And therein lies a problem. In my county of residence, the 'desk people' will likely be one person, who may well be dealing with 30 shifts whose breaks are disrupted due to ongoing traffic congestion, 2 breakdowns and another couple of incidents - being mostly reactive and frankly has no time to be inputting anything, let alone checking tracking to see where buses are and what they may be doing. Assuming the tracking is working on the problem buses, couple that with driver input errors and the result is gobbledegook.

In theory, the feed which is doing the app cancellations, should be the same feed which sends data to BODS. Unless operators have some strange separate feed/system.

As each of these programs are separate, I should imagine in practice they are not the same feed (at least not in every company). I cannot imagine (and I may be wrong) the 'desk people' of my local company having access to the live feed of BODS tracking...... I suspect their app takes their live tracking from their ticket machines, but any cancellation is done in their app only at present.

But the BBC article states it is because Stagecoach are using an incorrect format. Other operators get it right by the sounds of things so why aren’t Stagecoach?

Incorrect format for their real time displays. I expect that other legacy systems of the bus company cannot supply the format that this system requires. (I know that to be true of the same bus company elsewhere with a legacy 3rd party real time system). Someone has to pay for the upgrade: the bus company won't until the legacy system needs replacing.

 

[cactustwirly]

I know it's not ideal but really everyone should just use bustimes.org (with the local operator's app as a backup) rather than expecting boards to work anywhere other than London.

Why is that not an unreasonable expectation?
Boards at train stations work fine

Bus times isn't helpful during disruption and doesn't track very well.

The app tracking is better, I am not familiar with Stagecoach what app they use.

 

[RT4038]

Why is that not an unreasonable expectation?
Boards at train stations work fine

It is an expectation. The rail industry has this kind of board. Whether it is 'reasonable' depends on your knowledge of how much is required, both in development and in 'operational terms' to get such a thing to 'work fine' for buses ! My (smallish) county of residence has more bus stops than there are rail stations in the entire country.

Buses have no signal boxes, no track circuits, no block signalling, precious little 'controlling'. Everywhere they operate is unmanned. they are much more flexible in what they do and much less effect to the system as a whole if one comes to a stop somewhere. They are also much more vulnerable to intermediate disruption, but have a far greater opportunity to divert off piste, without 'controlling', to recover delays.

Clearly all this could be overcome, but at great expense both in development and ongoing operational 'controlling'. The bus industry does not have that kind of financial resource.

 

[Bedford OB]

What I find interesting from this thread is the inference that buses are all a shambles and the massively subsidised rail industry is getting all these things so right. I live on, and use most days, the Elizabeth Line, with all of its new generation equipment and technology. The passenger information is frequently a shambles, just like the service is rapidly becoming. A mixture of incomplete or incorrect information on the boards, and staff incompetence. Late last night was a typical example, when I watched passengers miss late and last trains because of a complete failure of information delivery.

 

[jon0844]

Imagine if the bus industry got the same sort of subsidy that the railways get.......

Yes, let us imagine. Because public transport should receive the funding necessary to provide a basic service. A bus that is road worthy, accessible, has information onboard and passengers wanting to use the bus also get the required information. NONE of those things should be optional.

I know some will say 'but if buses had to do all that, they wouldn't be able to afford to run them' and of course that is currently correct. That's because we don't see buses as important enough in many places - despite the fact that a good service could help reduce congestion on roads and bring many other benefits - benefits that the bus operators don't directly enjoy, which is of course why it can be and likely is necessary to subsidise them in many cases.

Does TfL allow buses to go around without working displays and announcements onboard? I think not, which means they understand that it isn't something that is optional or a 'nice to have'.

 

[RT4038]

Yes, let us imagine. Because public transport should receive the funding necessary to provide a basic service. A bus that is road worthy, accessible, has information onboard and passengers wanting to use the bus also get the required information. NONE of those things should be optional.

There are plenty of people who think having buses is optional, let alone most of the features that you mention. This is because

That's because we don't see buses as important enough in many places - despite the fact that a good service could help reduce congestion on roads and bring many other benefits - benefits that the bus operators don't directly enjoy, which is of course why it can be and likely is necessary to subsidise them in many cases.

most if not all of the people making decisions and administering this country (and many others) have no need for buses, don't want to use buses, have no real idea of the bus industry and its challenges. Buses and the facilities they need to give a 'good service' are far from their minds. Buses cannot give a 'good service' at an acceptable cost until congestion is eliminated, and people won't get out of the cars causing the congestion until buses give a 'good service'. Check Mate.

Does TfL allow buses to go around without working displays and announcements onboard? I think not, which means they understand that it isn't something that is optional or a 'nice to have'.

Only because they have got the money to be able to afford it. Meanwhile, in most of the provinces, a more pragmatic view has to be followed.......

 

[jon0844]

Meanwhile, in most of the provinces, a more pragmatic view has to be followed.......

And we need to change this way of thinking.

God help us if Reform gets into power, because the current buses will be decimated even more I'm sure. The councils where Reform have taken power are already trying to undo cycle lane investment and I'm sure some have even said (which of course doesn't mean doing) they want to get rid of existing infrastructure to give priority back to the motorist.

 

[Megafuss]

Stagecoach essentially has a private feed, which the app/website journey planner/back office systems are supplied with. It's the same data as bods (or should be) but its a feed they can control via Vix - hence the cancellation messages via official channels.

There is no manpower issue either. Somebody, usually a controller, will login to the vix portal and cancel full or part boards which then filters through to the app as cancelled.

I assume the issue is that there is no direct access for a controller to edit a bods/public feed.

 

[GilfachFargoed]

Where we are the local Stagecoach West route is regularly subject to planned diversions, including for about 2 months over the summer. In all that time (including that fairly long duration closure) the route remained unaltered on both Stagecoach's app and bustimes, resulting in me losing some faith in the quality of the customer information that the operator provides...

 

[High Dyke]

Oh, the luxury of bus information screens at bus stops.

 

[jon0844]

Oh, the luxury of bus information screens at bus stops.

Herts County Council has installed lots of very small colour LCD displays at the tiniest of bus stops, but missed out on some rather major ones on housing estates.

I guess I should have added to my rant that bus stops need to show information as well as expecting people to use an app on their phone.

 

[Megafuss]

Herts County Council has installed lots of very small colour LCD displays at the tiniest of bus stops, but missed out on some rather major ones on housing estates.

I guess I should have added to my rant that bus stops need to show information as well as expecting people to use an app on their phone.

Well, in rural Northumberland, there aren't any real time screens, but liners with a QR you can't scan as the signal is poor!

 

[RT4038]

It is not the bus stop information that is causing misery for bus passengers - it is the cancellations and poor punctuality. Knowing about them in advance is a mere mitigation only.

 

[jon0844]

It is not the bus stop information that is causing misery for bus passengers - it is the cancellations and poor punctuality. Knowing about them in advance is a mere mitigation only.

People can cope with poor punctuality if they know about it. If I see my bus is delayed 15 minutes, I can make a decision based on that information. If the bus was cancelled and isn't coming, and the next one is an hour (or longer) away then I am sat there waiting for nothing. I could decide to bail at any time to walk, or call a cab, but if I don't know then I'll probably just 'give it another minute'. It's not acceptable in this day and age.

Likewise, a late bus that gets turned around to protect the next run means it's effectively cancelled for some people who - again - wait in vain. In this case, because the service can't be altered, they're probably seeing an estimated time of arrival and may even be able to see it on a tracker. That's just as bad. The bus suddenly stops and never continues, before becoming another service.

Uno, for example, has a list in the morning that shows all the services uncovered (I know this from speaking to a driver) but they don't or can't cancel these services on the feed that goes to its own app or bustimes.org, or bus stops. That's ridiculous IMO. The app has a page for service updates but I believe currently the job is vacant, so that doesn't get used either.

Sometimes when a bus is on diversion they do have a way to update the bus app, but I am not sure it shows on bustimes so people at bus stops no longer served have to hope that HCC has been to those stops to mark them out of use.

I wonder how much patience the average bus user has, and how one or two of these above examples leads them to NEVER using a bus again. Buses are generally clean these days, so the argument that someone doesn't go on a bus because it's dirty and smelly isn't likely the reason for not using a bus - it's a bad experience that has put them off and made them decide to use their car.

 

[High Dyke]

Herts County Council has installed lots of very small colour LCD displays at the tiniest of bus stops, but missed out on some rather major ones on housing estates.

I guess I should have added to my rant that bus stops need to show information as well as expecting people to use an app on their phone.

Ah right. We had some information screens fitted in my home town, in Lincolnshire. However, they rarely worked or the various operators vehicles were not compatible with the screen system. A pointless waste. It got even sillier when you had two different operators using the same service number, but for entirely different routes.