given £139.50 fare notice due to train breakdown.. Help!

[Roylang]

Flamingo - what do you do if somebody like that asks for a UFN? Personally, I play along initially - get them to write out name/address details and then make them the subject of a nice TIR.

The reasoning behind this is simple - if you know about UFN's, you've obviously got on board without a ticket or any means to pay sometime previously. And getting on board with no money and no means to pay is as far as I'm concerned evidence of intent to avoid the fare due. The same goes for the 'you'll have to swipe my card' brigade. Authorisation fail by HSBC equals a TIR. And a TIR usually equals prosecution.

That's a little harsh. I have never deliberately tried to avoid paying the correct fare, and would never condone it. I am however, thanks to this forum, aware of the UPFN. Surely you cannot be saying that knowledge of the system is proof of guilt?

I would also suggest that "playing along" with the UPFN when you know that you will be issuing a TIR is somewhat deceitful and potentially damaging to the image of the railways that you, amongst others, try to protect.

There are genuine cases where people are on trains incorrectly - my mother in-law recently did it. She was travelling from Reading to Penzance on the 16:33 Reading - Penzance. The previous train (15:06 PAD-PNZ) was delayed following a fatality and was shown and announced as the second train to arrive at Reading, following the16:06 PAD-PNZ service. As it was, the 15:06 service arrived first, had Penzance as the destination in the coach windows and on she got. She had not noticed that the station displays had changed nor heard any announcements (although there had undoubtedly been at least one).

It was not until the guard arrived that the error was realised. She is a pensioner and is not in the position to simply buy a new ticket to Penzance, nor would she appreciated being shown the door at the next station. As for prosecution, I think she would refuse to ever travel by train again.

Sometimes a little understanding is needed. As for your assumption that we are deliberately fiddling the system if we know what it is? It beggars belief and is an attitude little better than that of the much criticised “Ricky”.

Roy

 

[AlterEgo]

Sometimes a little understanding is needed. As for your assumption that we are deliberately fiddling the system if we know what it is? It beggars belief and is an attitude little better than that of the much criticised “Ricky”.

Roy

Fair point, but:

How would you tell the difference between someone who claims to have made a mistake, and someone who was intentionally trying to dodge the fare?

Just to clarify - I'm not being contentious, just interested in your point of view.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Fair point, but:

How would you tell the difference between someone who claims to have made a mistake, and someone who was intentionally trying to dodge the fare?

Just to clarify - I'm not being contentious, just interested in your point of view.

By using your brain.

In the example Roylang gave about his mother in law, the member of staff should easily be able to double check the timings of the trains (the delayed one and the one she was supposed to get) realise how close they were, and accept that it was a genuine mistake.

Of course, many circumstances are not that obvious, but some certainly are.

I accept that it is a difficult job, and that picking the genuine cases from the fake isn't always easy. But I fail to see why people who have made genuine mistakes, or even those who have not made any mistake at all (they have just been delayed) are treated the same as those who are specifically trying to avoid paying.

 

[Flamingo]

That's a little harsh. I have never deliberately tried to avoid paying the correct fare, and would never condone it. I am however, thanks to this forum, aware of the UPFN. Surely you cannot be saying that knowledge of the system is proof of guilt?

I would also suggest that "playing along" with the UPFN when you know that you will be issuing a TIR is somewhat deceitful and potentially damaging to the image of the railways that you, amongst others, try to protect....

Sometimes a little understanding is needed. As for your assumption that we are deliberately fiddling the system if we know what it is? It beggars belief and is an attitude little better than that of the much criticised “Ricky”.

Roy

Get off the high horse a second, mate.

People make genuine mistakes.

Most of the time this can be sorted, but it depends on the guards discretion. It might involve them having to part with more money, depending on the situation, it does not always, even though a strict interpretation of the rules may mean that more money should be asked for.

However, there are a large number of people who would not dream of going into Tesco's and taking something, or blagging in the back door of a cinema, or walking out of a restaurant without paying, but seem to think that travelling on a train without paying the correct fare for their journey is somehow acceptable, and "getting one over on the man".

Getting all indignant and "the customer is always right, and everybody is genuine" ignores this problem, and is a cop-out.

Sometimes a little understanding is needed if someone is genuine.

Sometimes that means understanding that the person in the seat is trying to avoid paying, and treat them accordingly. That is fair on the people who have paid the correct fare, and helps reduce the subsidy that the railway requires from taxpayers.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Getting all indignant and "the customer is always right, and everybody is genuine" ignores this problem, and is a cop-out.

But nobody is saying that. What people are saying is that some times the customer is right, and sometimes they are genuine. You say it is a "cop out" to take the viewpoint you mention, but I would say it is a "cop out" to take the view some staff take which is the total opposite "no one is genuine, everyone is trying to con me".

I accept that there are many people who do try to get away without paying. But there are also many people who have either made genuine mistakes, or have not made any mistake at all and are still being treated like a criminal.

 

[Roylang]

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Get off the high horse a second, mate.

People make genuine mistakes.

Most of the time this can be sorted, but it depends on the guards discretion. It might involve them having to part with more money, depending on the situation, it does not always, even though a strict interpretation of the rules may mean that more money should be asked for.

Have not got a horse to get off :cry:

The point I was making, perhaps badly, related to post made that knowledge of UPFN = proof of guilt.

I said I do not condone fare evasion. Where there is a deliberate act would galdly see these people prosecuted.

Roy

 

[Flamingo]

I know one particular fare evader, see him frequently enough, although he has taken to buying tickets now.

He is a thief, and a drug dealer. He has attempted credit card fraud at the buffet on practically every train I have had him on. He has several dozen outstanding UPFN's. He is an asylum seeker, who can't be sent back to the part of Africa he is from because this would be in breach of his "human rights".

Are you seriously suggesting that every time he gives me a stamped ticket and says "I broke my journey", or tells me I have to give him a "written ticket", or claims he fell asleep and missed his stop and is now on the way back to the station that he missed, that I should say "Yes, no problem mate".

He knows the rules as well as I do. And this is so he can give the correct story when he is caught breaking them. He's not alone.

 

[Roylang]

No, not suggesting that at all. You know him and you know it is a deliberate act.

You seem to be missing the point of my post. Knowledge of UPFN does not equal guilt. Having a record of UPFN (paid or otherwise), using old tickets, credit card fraud etc. is.

In a way, your post also makes the point I was trying to make. You need more than just the "offender" having knowledge of what a UPFN is to warant perceiving the "offence" as a criminal act.

Roy

 

[Ferret]

That's a little harsh. I have never deliberately tried to avoid paying the correct fare, and would never condone it. I am however, thanks to this forum, aware of the UPFN. Surely you cannot be saying that knowledge of the system is proof of guilt?

I would also suggest that "playing along" with the UPFN when you know that you will be issuing a TIR is somewhat deceitful and potentially damaging to the image of the railways that you, amongst others, try to protect.

There are genuine cases where people are on trains incorrectly - my mother in-law recently did it. She was travelling from Reading to Penzance on the 16:33 Reading - Penzance. The previous train (15:06 PAD-PNZ) was delayed following a fatality and was shown and announced as the second train to arrive at Reading, following the16:06 PAD-PNZ service. As it was, the 15:06 service arrived first, had Penzance as the destination in the coach windows and on she got. She had not noticed that the station displays had changed nor heard any announcements (although there had undoubtedly been at least one).

It was not until the guard arrived that the error was realised. She is a pensioner and is not in the position to simply buy a new ticket to Penzance, nor would she appreciated being shown the door at the next station. As for prosecution, I think she would refuse to ever travel by train again.

Sometimes a little understanding is needed. As for your assumption that we are deliberately fiddling the system if we know what it is? It beggars belief and is an attitude little better than that of the much criticised “Ricky”.

Roy

Roy - one specific point you've overlooked here; I was referring to how I deal with blatant fare-dodging, not people who have made a genuine mistake. I'm talking about people who are dishonest - who get on the train with no money and no ticket and therefore no intention of paying. Frankly, they think they're getting a nice easy ride, and I'm more than happy to leave them thinking just that!

 

[Roylang]

Roy - one specific point you've overlooked here; I was referring to how I deal with blatant fare-dodging, not people who have made a genuine mistake. I'm talking about people who are dishonest - who get on the train with no money and no ticket and therefore no intention of paying. Frankly, they think they're getting a nice easy ride, and I'm more than happy to leave them thinking just that!

With that I agree 100% and apologies if I misunderstood the intent of your post. For them, being shown the door at 70mph would also be an approach

Roy

 

[tony_mac]

but, unless you have seen them before, you can't tell the difference from someone who has always bought at a TVM that accepts Electron cards and one that knows Electron cards can't be accepted onboard.

 

[island]

but, unless you have seen them before, you can't tell the difference from someone who has always bought at a TVM that accepts Electron cards and one that knows Electron cards can't be accepted onboard.

This'll become history soon enough as Electron cards are on their way out.

 

[radamfi]

This'll become history soon enough as Electron cards are on their way out.

What about airlines who currently don't charge for use of Visa Electron, such as easyJet?

 

[Deerfold]

This'll become history soon enough as Electron cards are on their way out.

So there'll be an increasing number of Vias Debit cards not authorised to be used offline...

What about airlines who currently don't charge for use of Visa Electron, such as easyJet?

They'll find something else obscure - probably a prepaid Mastercard or some such.

 

[38Cto15E]

Persistant fare evaders like the one Flamingo describes should be banned by TOCs they have multiple UPFNs with. Send em by National express coach.

 

[island]

Persistant fare evaders like the one Flamingo describes should be banned by TOCs they have multiple UPFNs with. Send em by National express coach.

Even if you write to someone telling them they're banned, what happens when they just walk onto a train anyway?

 

[Statto]

Even if you write to someone telling them they're banned, what happens when they just walk onto a train anyway?

Would be an idea for the TOC to get an ASBO, although it probably wont stop them offending again, it'll be more likely they'll end up in the Nick.

 

[b0b]

Sometimes that means understanding that the person in the seat is trying to avoid paying, and treat them accordingly. That is fair on the people who have paid the correct fare, and helps reduce the subsidy that the railway requires from taxpayers.

Technically, if the system doesn't know about the passenger because they don't buy a ticket, the railway will never get that subsidy, so they are saving the taxpayer money

 

[yorkie]

Technically, if the system doesn't know about the passenger because they don't buy a ticket, the railway will never get that subsidy, so they are saving the taxpayer money

I don't think it works like that!

 

[Flamingo]

Persistant fare evaders like the one Flamingo describes should be banned by TOCs they have multiple UPFNs with. Send em by National express coach.

It's hard to get an ASBO unless they get violent, which this guy has the sense not to. As I said, he now buys a ticket in daylight, but tries to use the return portion (valid for a month) as a season ticket. He hates me, because after stamping it, I rip it in half. First time he said "Why did you do that?", and I replied "To stop you using it again". I also go straight to the nearest PA and make an announcement "There are known thieves on board, watch your belongings", and warn the buffet cash only from him.

He sits back down on the platform when he sees me!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Even if you write to someone telling them they're banned, what happens when they just walk onto a train anyway?

Unless you have BTP to hand, not a lot. :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Would be an idea for the TOC to get an ASBO, although it probably wont stop them offending again, it'll be more likely they'll end up in the Nick.

He should end up back in Somalia, but that ain't going to happen.

 

[Flying Snail]

No, not suggesting that at all. You know him and you know it is a deliberate act.

You seem to be missing the point of my post. Knowledge of UPFN does not equal guilt. Having a record of UPFN (paid or otherwise), using old tickets, credit card fraud etc. is.

No, but it is going to raise suspicions. Outside rail staff the only people likely to have knowledge of railway revenue protection procedures are the likes of us on these sorts of forums and professional fare evaders and I would bet it is the latter category that train managers end up dealing with in 99% of cases.

TBH weeding out the genuine cases from the serial evaders is not always easy as the lies used by the scumbags are similar to the genuine scenarios. As the vast majority of times these excuses are trotted it is by evaders not genuine cases some suspicion is inevitable. This is where the competent, professional TMs will stand out as they will no in most cases be able to weed out the genuine cases either by fact finding or the instincts that come with regularly dealing with lying scumbags.

There are certain tells with the majority of evaders and they are usually not in what is said but the way the excuses are trotted out and other non-verbal clues. The most obvious giveaway is the way the excuses, lies and other lines of bull rolls off the evaders' tongues. It all comes out a bit too easily and when one avenue of crap doesn't work it slips seamlessly into the next excuse. Keep at it long enough and inevitably the BS sob story will pop out, it is amazing how often fare evading seems to coincide with "emergency" trips to see sick relatives in hospitals.



I should point out that I do not work for the railways, I drive bus and coach services but from previous posts from flamingo and other railworkers on here the general behaviour of fare-dodgers and scumbags sounds very familiar.

 

[richardderby]

had a letter from Tony Collins today, Virgin chief executive,who aquitted us all of the unpaid fares notices as a `gesture of goodwill`. the train manager will be spoken to by his line manager about his lack of customer service skills.....
We were advised the train manager would be unable to check delays on connecting services operated by companies other than virgin, and it is standard procedure to make the customer pay again, unless they have had the ticket endorsed by virgin staff, berfore boarding the connecting train. what a load of pollycock, are they aware of the national rail conditions? virgin are obviously screwing there customers before the franchise is terminated next year, `we hope this does not prevent you from travelling virgin in the future` hmm......

 

[northwichcat]

What about airlines who currently don't charge for use of Visa Electron, such as easyJet?

They'll find something else obscure - probably a prepaid Mastercard or some such.

Booking fees for using a certain type of card are to be banned under new legislation. Airlines will either have to charge a 'booking fee' however you decide to pay or charge no booking fee at all.

had a letter from Tony Collins today, Virgin chief executive,who aquitted us all of the unpaid fares notices as a 'gesture of goodwill'. the train manager will be spoken to by his line manager about his lack of customer service skills.....
We were advised the train manager would be unable to check delays on connecting services operated by companies other than virgin, and it is standard procedure to make the customer pay again, unless they have had the ticket endorsed by virgin staff, berfore boarding the connecting train. what a load of pollycock, are they aware of the national rail conditions?

So what happens if there are no Virgin staff at the station you are changing at e.g. if you do Handforth-London changing at Wilmslow?

Maybe contact Passenger Focus including your letter and referring to the exact part of NRCoC they are breaching.

You could also contact BBC North West or ITV Granada, if you wanted to expose Virgin, as I'm sure being charged £139.50 when you have a valid ticket and then being told by a CEO that 'they'll let you off on this once' is more than news-worthy, considering the fuss made of a disabled passenger who was told to board the following service (a 323) instead of the train that was already there (a 142.)

 

[yorkie]

had a letter from Tony Collins today, Virgin chief executive,who aquitted us all of the unpaid fares notices as a 'gesture of goodwill'.

Outrageous! I take issue with that, as it suggests you have done wrong but are being let off!

the train manager will be spoken to by his line manager about his lack of customer service skills.....

Good.

We were advised the train manager would be unable to check delays on connecting services operated by companies other than virgin, and it is standard procedure to make the customer pay again, unless they have had the ticket endorsed by virgin staff, berfore boarding the connecting train. what a load of pollycock, are they aware of the national rail conditions? virgin are obviously screwing there customers before the franchise is terminated next year, 'we hope this does not prevent you from travelling virgin in the future' hmm......

That's appauling. I suggest writing to them again (I am happy to proof read if you like) and say that you may be taking the matter up with your MP and Passenger Focus if a satisfactory response is not issued.

Virgin are normally better than this.

 

[radamfi]

Booking fees for using a certain type of card are to be banned under new legislation. Airlines will either have to charge a 'booking fee' however you decide to pay or charge no booking fee at all.

This is just UK legislation isn't it? Does that mean websites based outside the UK (does that include Ryanair?) are not affected by this, or does it affect all websites selling to UK customers?

 

[yorkie]

So what happens if there are no Virgin staff at the station you are changing at e.g. if you do Handforth-London changing at Wilmslow?

Maybe contact Passenger Focus including your letter and referring to the exact part of NRCoC they are breaching.

This is entirely fictitious. No such requirement exists. I agree that Passenger Focus should be contacted. I would give Virgin one last chance though.

You could also contact BBC North West or ITV Granada, if you wanted to expose Virgin, as I'm sure being charged £139.50 when you have a valid ticket and then being told by a CEO that 'they'll let you off on this once' is more than news-worthy, considering the fuss made of a disabled passenger who was told to board the following service (a 323) instead of the train that was already there (a 142.)

I would contact them if Virgin do not reply first, unfortunately they are less likely to be interested because the case was dropped. However I do perceive Virgin's response to be a threat made against any of their future passengers. I for one, object to such a threat being issued and believe we should fight this.

 

[RPI]

Contact passenger focus! If thats what Virgins policy is then thats just wrong!

 

[All Line Rover]

That is appalling (and highly unusual) customer services from Virgin, particularly as the response is from their CEO.

Do they want to keep the franchise at this rate or what?! :roll: It's not giving a very good impression! They should be taking the lead in good customer service!!

 

[northwichcat]

Out of interest the condition says:

If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.

Does this mean on a route like Preston-Scotland if you missed the TPE service because of a delayed connecting train then you could take the next train if it was Virgin or vice versa?

 

[radamfi]

We were advised the train manager would be unable to check delays on connecting services operated by companies other than virgin

That has got to be a blatant lie as someone in his capacity will surely know that anyone with access to the staff version of live departure boards can check the delay to any train. If the train manager doesn't have a computer on board he can phone someone who does.