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Seriously, how can anyone use the railway for long distance commuting?

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bramling

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Most experienced commuters try to leave the frontline staff to get on with the job, and hopefully you don't have to deal with those. You experience those that haven't learned yet!

One point to make, I agree with this, however the other side of the coin is as a passenger I also expect to be left to get on with my journey. Hence why I don’t react well to security types “can I help you?” if I’m standing on platform 10 at King’s Cross before the train is advertised, or whatever. Two-way street.
 
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Oxfordblues

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Walking and cycling are more reliable. But not if for some reason the road, path or track is closed. Or when cycling, some other idiot crashes into you or causes you to crash.

I've experienced all of the above.
Off-topic (but relevant!): I set off on my bike from Halewood Village to Ditton Junction to catch the weekly steam-hauled Lime Street to Bangor (Speke Junction Standard-5) when I fell off my bike. I missed the train and it didn't run again. That was 1966.
 

Russel

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Didn't have far to fall. Always liked the station though, and staff were nice.

Oh yes, agreed about the station being interesting, I've always found the three different architectural styles fascinating!
 

stevieinselby

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I don't drive any longer, and when I did I avoided motorways as much as possible. But of those few such journeys in the last five or so years nearly half of them were delayed for well over an hour owing to unavoidable (and possibly tragic) incidents on the road ahead. Once you are stuck in a line of traffic you can't escape. I'm not suggesting that my experience is typical, but there is no way of guaranteeing that you run to schedule whatever mode of transport you choose.
I certainly feel that my commute by train is a lot more reliable than when I used to drive for the same journey – I may be unusually lucky but it is rare for my train to be late (and extremely rare for it to be cancelled), whereas a significant proportion of journeys by car would include delays, even if you take an "average" peak hour journey as the baseline rather than assuming a clear road, and there was much more variability and unpredictability when driving. And yes, depending on where/when trouble hit, there might be no alternative but to wait it out. On the other hand, as the afternoon ticks by, I'll be checking RTT to see how my train is doing, and on the rare occasions that I can see it is running a bit late, I'll stay at my desk for a bit longer – sure, I would prefer to be making my way home on time, but at least if I'm going to be late home then I can use the time productively and build up a bit more flexi credit!
 

Tetragon213

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"Don't moan at me, moan at [insert name of TOC]". It's not my fault and it's not under my control, so stuff 'em. They cannot validly argue otherwise.

To my mind it's an advantage of commuting by rail that you can't be blamed personally if it makes you late.
How do I put this... your manager won't care. I've had this conversation too many times, and it typically revolves to "it's your responsibility to get into work on time. Sort it out". I ended up having to stop commuting in by bus, because it was late so often that I got a "final verbal bollocking" for it. Did the "It's not my fault and it's not under my control, so stuff 'em [in this case National Express West Midlands]" argument cut any ice with them? Erm... in a word, NO.
 

lachlan

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I agree and I don't even drive!

For me it's all about control. If you're delayed in a car you have choices; you can choose to go a different route, you can decide how warm you want the heating to be and what music to play. You may not get home any quicker but you'll have a much more pleasant journey.

By contrast on a delayed train you have to put up with other people's music and inane phone conversations, screaming kids running around and incessant announcements.

If I had the choice it would be the car every time.
The grass is always greener on the other side! You can reroute but often the alternative routes get clogged with traffic too. At least you can do something your time on the train.

A pair of airpods or similar with noise-cancelling is a lifesaver for the train when there are noisy people on board.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

How do I put this... your manager won't care. I've had this conversation too many times, and it typically revolves to "it's your responsibility to get into work on time. Sort it out". I ended up having to stop commuting in by bus, because it was late so often that I got a "final verbal bollocking" for it. Did the "It's not my fault and it's not under my control, so stuff 'em [in this case National Express West Midlands]" argument cut any ice with them? Erm... in a word, NO.
Depends on your work of course - I can't imagine they'll be sympathetic if your stuck in traffic in a car either
 

Tetragon213

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The grass is always greener on the other side! You can reroute but often the alternative routes get clogged with traffic too. At least you can do something your time on the train.

A pair of airpods or similar with noise-cancelling is a lifesaver for the train when there are noisy people on board.
Depends on which TOC. If it's XC you're travelling with, then god be with you, as I guarantee you won't be doing much in your time other than standing and trying to ignore your feet screaming in pain, while your face is pressed into a vestibule panel. And airpods do very little if the problem with the clientele is not just limited to noise; if they (as I often find when I travel for business) are partakers in certain green psychoactive substances, the stench fills the coach quickly. And it's far worse if you have to stand right next to said individual.

I've had to suffer the indignity of having to explain to a guard that, yes, I know my Advance ticket was for the train before this one, but I physically couldn't board it because of the overcrowding. And how did I spend my 1.5 hours on the journey back into Birmingham? Standing with my feet screaming in pain, while my face was pressed into a door.
 

NCT

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At the risk of flaunting privilege, the typical train commuter works an office job with at least some flexibility in hours, where 'getting in late' isn't even a thing. If you have a 9:00 meeting and you are stuck on a late train you simply dial in on your phone.
 

Harpo

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She must have been lucky - diversion between Temple Meads and Swindon via Parkway when there’s disruption, while not frequent, is certainly something that happens
More frequent to divert via Chippenham whenever Sodding Chipbury floods, which is usually multiple times each year.
 

Tetragon213

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At the risk of flaunting privilege, the typical train commuter works an office job with at least some flexibility in hours, where 'getting in late' isn't even a thing.
Businesses are (for better or for worse, and it's worse in my opinion) pushing like hell to force people back into offices, with a "core hours" policy that means that being late is a thing still. I would know, I have been threatened with a formal disciplinary over the issue.
If you have a 9:00 meeting and you are stuck on a late train you simply dial in on your phone.
Which is all well and good until you enter a tunnel right as you're either getting to the part where you need to present, or the important information is coming through. Not to mention that on board wifi basically never works, while phone coverage is patchy at best and often non-existent at worst. And it's not the most helpful thing when you're trying to speak, and then "IF YOU SEE SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T LOOK RIGHT..." comes blaring over the intercom loud enough for everyone in the meeting to hear, or the inevitable morons blasting "music" for everyone to hear in both the carriage and the meeting.
Depends on your work of course - I can't imagine they'll be sympathetic if your stuck in traffic in a car either
Of course they aren't, but the people who drive in tend to have better reliability around what time they turn up, than those of us condemned to using public transport. The record for a delay was 2.5 hours, when a colleague from another office was due to meet us for a design review in person, and he was so late into office that he might as well have not bothered turning up, as he not only missed the entire availability slot that the rest of us had arranged, he then had to head back the other way relatively soon after to get home in time. I don't recall why CrossCountry delayed him so much, but let's just say he was not a happy bunny on arrival.
 

NCT

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Businesses are (for better or for worse, and it's worse in my opinion) pushing like hell to force people back into offices, with a "core hours" policy that means that being late is a thing still. I would know, I have been threatened with a formal disciplinary over the issue.

Sounds like you work for a toxic employer.
 

Bletchleyite

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Sorry, how does expecting staff to turn up on time make an employer toxic?

Because it's just not necessary to be bang-on punctual in an office environment. I've worked with a guy who never came in at 9 but would still be there at 8pm many days - he was excellent so we just treated it as one of those things.

9am meetings are barely a thing anyway, people want time to get settled with a coffee first. 9:30 is the earliest I usually see.

Obviously it depends a lot on the nature of the work. But disciplining people because of their rail service having a bit of a bad spell isn't being a good employer, particularly with people whose service is infrequent so just getting a train or two earlier isn't a viable option (so most of the north). Totally reasonable to want the time made up though.

And if we're specifically talking about long distance commuting, i.e. weekly commuting, a very common pattern is that on a Monday people don't arrive until maybe 10 or even 11 but don't take a lunch break that day and make the time up by working slightly longer days, similarly typically leaving around 2-3 on Thursday and working Friday from home. As long as the hours are put in it works fine in an office/professional environment.
 

Russel

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Because it's just not necessary to be bang-on punctual in an office environment. I've worked with a guy who never came in at 9 but would still be there at 8pm many days - he was excellent so we just treated it as one of those things.

9am meetings are barely a thing anyway, people want time to get settled with a coffee first. 9:30 is the earliest I usually see.

Obviously it depends a lot on the nature of the work. But disciplining people because of their rail service having a bit of a bad spell isn't being a good employer, particularly with people whose service is infrequent so just getting a train or two earlier isn't a viable option (so most of the north). Totally reasonable to want the time made up though.

And if we're specifically talking about long distance commuting, i.e. weekly commuting, a very common pattern is that on a Monday people don't arrive until maybe 10 or even 11 but don't take a lunch break that day and make the time up by working slightly longer days, similarly typically leaving around 2-3 on Thursday and working Friday from home. As long as the hours are put in it works fine in an office/professional environment.

This is all very dependant on the role you are doing within the office though, to suggest being on time isn't really important is a very sweeping statement.
 

NCT

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This is all very dependant on the role you are doing within the office though, to suggest being on time isn't really important is a very sweeping statement.

The railway is already busy with the flexible time cohort. Not saying the railway shouldn't strive for best performance, but to suggest rail commuters depend on trains being absolutely on time is some distance from the truth.
 

jfollows

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I couldn’t do it, one reason I got a job outside London when I graduated (in London).
30 minutes has pretty much been my limit.
I did a month Bath - Stockley Park which meant walk-Bath-Paddington-Hayes & Harlington- Walk but IBM paid for my first class season ticket because it was a piece of contract work for which they were billing the customer anyway. Mostly went OK and I only drove on a couple of Sundays when I went in.
I thought briefly about a high paying job in London & Sutton some ten years ago, but decided the travel wasn’t worth it. I applied for another well paying job in Reading but I’d have moved to a flat or house there.
I’m impressed with the people who do it. Some of it’s choice - good job in London but housing and family better in the country. If so, it was a choice I didn’t need to make.
 

Russel

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The railway is already busy with the flexible time cohort. Not saying the railway shouldn't strive for best performance, but to suggest rail commuters depend on trains being absolutely on time is some distance from the truth.

The time a commuter needs to be at their desk is irrelevant, sloppy performance is unacceptable, I'm not sure why so many on here rush to defend or excuse the railways.

TOC's have plenty of excuses of their own, let's not help them...
 

NCT

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The time a commuter needs to be at their desk is irrelevant, sloppy performance is unacceptable, I'm not sure why so many on here rush to defend or excuse the railways.

TOC's have plenty of excuses of their own, let's not help them...

In the real world, real world equilibria are found and observed.
 

Annetts key

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Of course they aren't, but the people who drive in tend to have better reliability around what time they turn up, than those of us condemned to using public transport. The record for a delay was 2.5 hours, when a colleague from another office was due to meet us for a design review in person, and he was so late into office that he might as well have not bothered turning up, as he not only missed the entire availability slot that the rest of us had arranged, he then had to head back the other way relatively soon after to get home in time. I don't recall why CrossCountry delayed him so much, but let's just say he was not a happy bunny on arrival.
Not going into work, but when trying to get home, a road journey (using my car) took over two hours. This happened multiple times. The normal time, out of "rush hour", for this journey is typically 45 minutes (around 1 hour to 1 hour 20 minutes during "rush hour"), but this was happening either after 6pm or on a weekend.

The cause was the M5 motorway either being closed or so much traffic building up that many diverted via the A-roads one of which was the road I used.

In comparison, excluding a 12 minute walk, the train normally took around 30 to 35 minutes.
 

43096

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Because it's just not necessary to be bang-on punctual in an office environment. I've worked with a guy who never came in at 9 but would still be there at 8pm many days - he was excellent so we just treated it as one of those things.
In my experience of such people, it is tolerated - just - by others because they invariably expect those who get in at a sensible time to be available in the evenings for their meetings. In other words, a one-way street.
9am meetings are barely a thing anyway, people want time to get settled with a coffee first. 9:30 is the earliest I usually see.
Must be a pretty slack place! In my experience, 9am meetings are absolutely normal and regular. Indeed, meetings anytime from 8am are quite usual.
 
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Most people use trains for one of three reasons:
  • They don't have car access, or don't have one available for that journey, so it compares favourably to short term hire
  • They recognise it's the least worst option for where they want to go to
  • They have a vested interest in its use, such as being an enthusiast or a member of staff
Most regular forum readers will find themselves in at least one of those categories. Some of us may be in all three at once!
the other category is
- intending to get drunk
I have wondered sometimes if (in some strange universe) there were no laws against drink-driving, would the railways see a noticeable dip
 

pokemonsuper9

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the other category is
- intending to get drunk
I have wondered sometimes if (in some strange universe) there were no laws against drink-driving, would the railways see a noticeable dip
I think both methods of travel would have more issues, more congestion due to crashes and I'd imagine plenty of bridge strikes or falls of embankments onto train lines.
 

Tetragon213

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the other category is
- intending to get drunk
I have wondered sometimes if (in some strange universe) there were no laws against drink-driving, would the railways see a noticeable dip
You'd see a tiny dip, I suspect, but most people tend to have a vested interest in not wrapping their car around a tree, and tend to be aware of their own abilities.

That said, the old timers at my old takeaway and even from an online forum for a video game I played (a naval themed one, we had lots of old fellas there) made claims that they "drove better after one or two drinks". Methinks they didn't notice their mistakes and swerving, and were lucky to be talking to me in the shop instead of in a box 6 feet under.

When it comes to nights out, a delay isn't so crippling; you just catch the group up at the next pub on the list.
Sounds like you work for a toxic employer.
Said company is a Network Rail contractor, I'll say no more. They're not a perfect company, but I'd hardly call them toxic.
Because it's just not necessary to be bang-on punctual in an office environment. I've worked with a guy who never came in at 9 but would still be there at 8pm many days - he was excellent so we just treated it as one of those things.

9am meetings are barely a thing anyway, people want time to get settled with a coffee first. 9:30 is the earliest I usually see.

Obviously it depends a lot on the nature of the work. But disciplining people because of their rail service having a bit of a bad spell isn't being a good employer, particularly with people whose service is infrequent so just getting a train or two earlier isn't a viable option (so most of the north). Totally reasonable to want the time made up though.

And if we're specifically talking about long distance commuting, i.e. weekly commuting, a very common pattern is that on a Monday people don't arrive until maybe 10 or even 11 but don't take a lunch break that day and make the time up by working slightly longer days, similarly typically leaving around 2-3 on Thursday and working Friday from home. As long as the hours are put in it works fine in an office/professional environment.
Sounds like differing policies. Mine has a core hours policy of 9-3, and unless you are literally the only specialist in a certain discipline, they tend to expect you show up at 9 at the latest. 9am meetings are atypical but not unexpected; it's meetings on Friday post 3pm that are the big no-no.
In my experience of such people, it is tolerated - just - by others because they invariably expect those who get in at a sensible time to be available in the evenings for their meetings. In other words, a one-way street.

Must be a pretty slack place! In my experience, 9am meetings are absolutely normal and regular. Indeed, meetings anytime from 8am are quite usual.
When I was seconded to Cardiff, their office culture was one of 8am starts! I'd be regularly catching the 7:30 service from Central to Taff's Well. Tbf that was usually on time, and there were only 1 or 2 instances where it was heavily delayed. But the long journey down to Cardiff in the first place was a unique hell.
 

sh24

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As an employer, if someone is repeatedly significantly late due to transport issues I would have a friendly conversation about their life choices. After all, you chose where to live and work! Of course that could include agreeing more working from home, or moving to a 4x10 hour week to reduce the amount of travel.
 

Bletchleyite

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As an employer, if someone is repeatedly significantly late due to transport issues I would have a friendly conversation about their life choices. After all, you chose where to live and work! Of course that could include agreeing more working from home, or moving to a 4x10 hour week to reduce the amount of travel.

Agreed. A positive employer would be looking first at how the problem could be solved, and only if the employee wasn't willing to engage with that or was rude or dismissive would I be considering going anywhere near disciplinary action. Often there's an underlying reason for which there might be a solution.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Must be a pretty slack place! In my experience, 9am meetings are absolutely normal and regular. Indeed, meetings anytime from 8am are quite usual.

Your place is into early starts then! I don't think I've ever had an 8am meeting, the assumption is that most will aim to start at 9 but meetings tend to be 9:30 at the earliest so that people aren't in a rush on getting in (if in the office). You get 9 sometimes but not often, it's usually a last-resort slot for when you can't otherwise get that person any time soon, and usually comes with profuse apologies! :)

Certainly the first day of workshops and the likes (which people often quote as a reason for needing the Sleeper, for example) being a 9am start is for me very, very rare, not least because the person organising needs to get in and prepare to welcome visitors in person. Later days may start at 9 though.

I wonder if there might be an element of London-based vs. not-London-based in all this, because of the typically longer commutes around London compared to if the office was in a Manchester suburb where most probably commute by car and typically with journeys of half an hour or less? Even the rail timetables around here are based around 9am starts - for instance the first semifast London service from Bletchley is the 0701 arriving at Euston at 0738, which would to be fair get me to my office by 8 (just, but certainly not ready for a meeting!) but if heading to the City proper would probably be pushing being ready for a meeting before 0830. There are stoppers from around 0300, but with those taking just over an hour you're talking needing to leave a lot earlier to get into the office just a bit earlier (though some may choose to do so now it means it's off peak under Oval contactless payment).
 
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NCT

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Where I work even 10 years ago we had graduates succeeding in moving a weekly team meeting from 9am to 9:30.
 

Topological

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I found one solution, drive for the bit the train is worst at and then use the train for the part it is best at.

In my case, trying to get from near Swansea to Manchester is terrible. If you are lucky, there is a direct train but now it is only every 2 hours and stops early at night. Connections in Cardiff can be very hit and miss (at least things improved slightly from the early days of the split). To be in Manchester for 09:15 you need to be on the 03:45 from Swansea, to be in Manchester at 08:15 is impossible. By contrast, drive 1 hour to Pontypool and you can be on either train (05:11 or 06:18 from Pontypool for 08:15 or 09:15 respectively) then the 16:30, 18:30, 19:30 and 20:30 stop at Pontypool. The 17:30 does stop at Pontypool and goes to Swansea, where all the others terminate at Cardiff.

I do find I doze off on the train back, but like to tell myself I am working :)
 
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I'd imagine if you can start your job at after 0915 than you'd probably have to stay til 6? Just judging by the inbound numbers you gave, getting the 1830 from Manchester gets to Pontypool at ~2130, one hour drive gets you home at 2230, if you have to leave the house at ~0500 the next day...you'd have to go immediately to bed and then roll straight out into the driver's seat to have any semblance of a sensible amount of sleep, still only about 6hrs.
 

Topological

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I'd imagine if you can start your job at after 0915 than you'd probably have to stay til 6? Just judging by the inbound numbers you gave, getting the 1830 from Manchester gets to Pontypool at ~2130, one hour drive gets you home at 2230, if you have to leave the house at ~0500 the next day...you'd have to go immediately to bed and then roll straight out into the driver's seat to have any semblance of a sensible amount of sleep, still only about 6hrs.
I doubt anyone would do my commute every day.

Like many, my trip is once per week and usually the northbound and southbound are on different days. Though, I do like weeks where I only need to be in for one day.

I have colleagues who commute in from Europe owing to Manchester Airport being relatively well-served and accessible from the university. Not sure I could do that but for the same journey time...
 
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