Tap on tap off payment on UK provincial (non-TfL) buses

[Bletchleyite]

This.

As a first step, every operator needs to enable tap on (tap off) ticketing, and then make them cheaper than buying from the driver.

I genuinely don't understand why most of the bus industry doesn't seem to care that perhaps 10% of their coats could be eliminated with one simple move.

A handful of cities is not the whole of the UK. If there was one consistent system for tap on, tap off, people might be confident but there isn’t.

The majority of UK bus operators appear to use Ticketer machines which do support tap on tap off. Where a separate tap off reader is fitted to the pole by the door (which is the usual approach) it thus looks pretty standard. There just needs to be a nudge to get operators to set it up, and to Stagecoach to change to a ticketing system provider that supports it! (Their machines are long overdue replacement anyway, they are old, many have faulty screens so you can't see the amount you're tapping your card for, and they are decidedly fussy about Apple Pay).

I struggle to understand why operators aren't more enthusiastic for it, to be honest, it has the potential to significantly reduce dwells and thus peak vehicle requirements on some routes, particularly more frequent ones. The industry is still very conservative, though.

I'm increasingly seeing it in use to be honest - the level of promotion does vary a bit, but my most recent observation was that Transport for Cornwall/Go Cornwall Bus (certainly not urban!) are using it now.

 

[Trainbike46]

In reply to @Haywain : While I am aware that my list doesn't cover every city in the UK, the only city where I have tried to use buses and it wasn't available was Cambridge. The only other cities where I have tried using buses are the ones I listed as offering either tap-on only or tap-on tap-off. This lead to my conclusion that offering tap-on tap-off is hardly niche, even if only considering the UK.

When looking beyond the UK, both the Republic of Ireland and the Netherlands offer tap-on tap-off on all buses, country-wide.

The majority of UK bus operators appear to use Ticketer machines which do support tap on tap off. Where a separate tap off reader is fitted to the pole by the door (which is the usual approach) it thus looks pretty standard. There just needs to be a nudge to get operators to set it up, and to Stagecoach to change to a ticketing system provider that supports it! (Their machines are long overdue replacement anyway, they are old, many have faulty screens so you can't see the amount you're tapping your card for, and they are decidedly fussy about Apple Pay).

Ticketer isn't the only viable option either, Lothian uses Flowbird for example.

I struggle to understand why operators aren't more enthusiastic for it, to be honest, it has the potential to significantly reduce dwells and thus peak vehicle requirements on some routes, particularly more frequent ones. The industry is still very conservative, though.

Reduced dwells and faster journey times help everyone; the passenger gets a faster journey, the operator reduces peak vehicle and staff requirement, and faster journey times can lead to more passengers as well.

I'm increasingly seeing it in use to be honest - the level of promotion does vary a bit, but my most recent observation was that Transport for Cornwall/Go Cornwall Bus (certainly not urban!) are using it now.

That's great!

 

[signed]

Very interested in knowing why tap-on tap-off ends up being the preffered method for buses in the UK.

In France, off the top of my head I can't think of any network that actually does TOTO, it's always Tap-on, get a single ride or timed ticket and you're done.

In my opinion, tap-on tap-off make no sense, with the exception of suburban/countryside routes with distance pricing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Very interested in knowing why tap-on tap-off ends up being the preffered method for buses in the UK. In France, off the top of my head I can't think of any network that actually does TOTO, it's always Tap-on, get a timed ticket.

It's because traditionally UK fares are graduated rather than flat. They're largely a flat £3 at the moment (except some very short journeys) because of the post-COVID £3 (formerly £2) cap scheme, but that won't last forever, at some point things are likely to return to graduated fares at least outside the major cities, particularly on long regional routes.

It's generally the case that you don't need to tap out if it would just be £3 anyway, in that case you're just charged £3, at least on the Ticketer based systems. They don't have the complex "unresolved journey" issues the Tube does, because if you don't tap out the most you could have done is gone to the end of the route.

 

[signed]

It's because traditionally UK fares are graduated rather than flat

Even in urban networks?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even in urban networks?

Traditionally yes, though the regulated urban areas like Manchester are tending towards flat fares. In smaller urban areas, the way the UK network has developed tends to mean that a lot of the local services are provided by interurban services that pass through the conurbation, too, so you need a way to differentiate between the local and long distance passengers unless you're going to have a very high flat fare.

 

[Trainbike46]

Even in urban networks?

Urban networks tend to have flat fares, and most use a tap-on only system (Translink Metro and Lothian for example). Though some do use Tap-on Tap-off (e.g. First Aberdeen)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2025 ==

Traditionally yes, though the regulated urban areas like Manchester are tending towards flat fares. In smaller urban areas, the way the UK network has developed tends to mean that a lot of the local services are provided by interurban services that pass through the conurbation, too, so you need a way to differentiate between the local and long distance passengers unless you're going to have a very high flat fare.

Though as bletchleyite makes clear here, this does depend on the area.

 

[signed]

Makes sense then, thanks

 

[mmh]

It's because traditionally UK fares are graduated rather than flat. They're largely a flat £3 at the moment (except some very short journeys) because of the post-COVID £3 (formerly £2) cap scheme, but that won't last forever, at some point things are likely to return to graduated fares at least outside the major cities, particularly on long regional routes.

It's generally the case that you don't need to tap out if it would just be £3 anyway, in that case you're just charged £3, at least on the Ticketer based systems. They don't have the complex "unresolved journey" issues the Tube does, because if you don't tap out the most you could have done is gone to the end of the route.

England has a bus fare cap. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland don't, so this is the case in England, not the UK as a whole.

 

[Dai Corner]

Stagecoach to change to a ticketing system provider that supports it!

Stagecoach South Wales has TOTO, including daily and weekly caps. I've no idea what ticketing system they use or whether it's the same as that used by other subsidiaries.

 

[Buzby]

Even in urban networks?

Glasgow always did, even in the Corporation Transport days in my memory. Edinburgh OTOH is flat fare on bus and tram (UNLESS you have the temerity to want to go to the Airport)

 

[Trainbike46]

Edinburgh OTOH is flat fare on bus and tram (UNLESS you have the temerity to want to go to the Airport)

Entirely correct. For this reason, the tram is Tap-on Tap-off, even though the lothian bus is tap-on only

 

[NorthOxonian]

The majority of UK bus operators appear to use Ticketer machines which do support tap on tap off. Where a separate tap off reader is fitted to the pole by the door (which is the usual approach) it thus looks pretty standard. There just needs to be a nudge to get operators to set it up, and to Stagecoach to change to a ticketing system provider that supports it! (Their machines are long overdue replacement anyway, they are old, many have faulty screens so you can't see the amount you're tapping your card for, and they are decidedly fussy about Apple Pay).

Some operators do seem to have tap off on the same ticket machine you'd tap in or buy a ticket from - a couple of Go North East routes in Gateshead have it (though very few people use it) and IIRC that's also how Trent Barton have implemented it with their mango card (in practice most medium to long distance journeys hit the cap, though I think Mansfield to Sutton in Ashfield is just under it).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some operators do seem to have tap off on the same ticket machine you'd tap in or buy a ticket from - a couple of Go North East routes in Gateshead have it (though very few people use it) and IIRC that's also how Trent Barton have implemented it with their mango card (in practice most medium to long distance journeys hit the cap, though I think Mansfield to Sutton in Ashfield is just under it).

It can be done on Ticketer without the secondary tap off reader, certainly, but adding the latter speeds things up very slightly (because people can be starting to board and tap in while others finish alighting) and advertises that the service is there because you see it and wonder what it's for.

 

[NorthOxonian]

It can be done on Ticketer without the secondary tap off reader, certainly, but adding the latter speeds things up very slightly (because people can be starting to board and tap in while others finish alighting) and advertises that the service is there because you see it and wonder what it's for.

Yes, I agree - it tends to be quite awkward when the tap on and tap off reader are the same - someone tapping off can also delay alighting (slightly) if anyone is behind them.

 

[berneyarms]

In reply to @Haywain :

When looking beyond the UK, both the Republic of Ireland and the Netherlands offer tap-on tap-off on all buses, country-wide.

To correct you, in Ireland LEAP is not tap-on tap-off.

On Dublin City Bus services you tap on using the validator on the right hand side for the 90 minute fare, or go to the driver’s ticket machine and request the short fare (3km or less).

On all other operators around the country, you go to the driver’s ticket machine and state your destination.

 

[Edvid]

The majority of UK bus operators appear to use Ticketer machines which do support tap on tap off. Where a separate tap off reader is fitted to the pole by the door (which is the usual approach) it thus looks pretty standard. There just needs to be a nudge to get operators to set it up

First Bus (Norfolk and Suffolk) and Konectbus (Norfolk) are the latest to adopt single-operator schemes courtesy of Norfolk CC's BSIP.

In the longer term, once the West Midlands multi-operator cEMV Broker gets up and running they'll roll it out to other local authorities across England.

Project Coral contactless EMV Broker (multi-operator PAYG) progress

Back in July the West Midlands Combined Authority agreed a £13.4m drawdown of their City Region Sustainable Transport Settlement to progress the creation of a cEMV broker that non-London local authorities across England can eventually utilise for their various planned multi-operator contactless...

www.railforums.co.uk

and to Stagecoach to change to a ticketing system provider that supports it! (Their machines are long overdue replacement anyway, they are old, many have faulty screens so you can't see the amount you're tapping your card for, and they are decidedly fussy about Apple Pay).

Their Vix ERG TP5800s can already support it; I used TOTO between Leicester and Market Harborough on the Stagecoach X7 a couple of years ago.

Barring any recent changes the existing contract with Vix will end next year and elsewhere on this forum it's been suggested they're trialling a Flowbird Infigo4 (looks like the TP5800) and a Ticketer-lookalike (probably the TransMach TM700, which is replacing Reading Transport's Ticketers).

Stagecoach South Wales has TOTO, including daily and weekly caps. I've no idea what ticketing system they use or whether it's the same as that used by other subsidiaries.

I suspect it's the usual TP5800, as above.

 

[Dwarfer1979]

The majority of UK bus operators appear to use Ticketer machines which do support tap on tap off. Where a separate tap off reader is fitted to the pole by the door (which is the usual approach) it thus looks pretty standard. There just needs to be a nudge to get operators to set it up, and to Stagecoach to change to a ticketing system provider that supports it! (Their machines are long overdue replacement anyway, they are old, many have faulty screens so you can't see the amount you're tapping your card for, and they are decidedly fussy about Apple Pay).

I struggle to understand why operators aren't more enthusiastic for it, to be honest, it has the potential to significantly reduce dwells and thus peak vehicle requirements on some routes, particularly more frequent ones. The industry is still very conservative, though.

I'm increasingly seeing it in use to be honest - the level of promotion does vary a bit, but my most recent observation was that Transport for Cornwall/Go Cornwall Bus (certainly not urban!) are using it now.

Stagecoach machines can do it, Midlands do it within Leicester with what look like pretty standard machines so it is possible though it may be more complicated on their system to others.

ToTo is one of those things that is now feasible but not yet simple, it may look easy from the outside but there is a lot of cost and work in setting it up (more so the more complex your network and ticket range) and quite a lot of admin in running it. I can see it taking a while to roll out across operations and if you don't have experience of it then initial set up will be daunting but once you get into it you see that it isn't insurmountable but it does need to be done steadily and not rushed at. I'm not sure ToTo is that widespread but it is more common on urban networks, where ticket ranges were already simpler, and a couple of the big groups have pushed it (Go-Ahead & First in particular as they were involved as major operators in some of the early schemes so would have got over those issues) so it may seem more so than it is if you mostly visit those types of locations.

Cornwall has been doing it for a while but when I used it 2 years ago the capping was a little off and I think I was overcharged but the customer service response was non-existent to work out if I was right and I gave up as we were talking about less than a pound over a week of travelling.

 

[johncrossley]

This.

As a first step, every operator needs to enable tap on (tap off) ticketing, and then make them cheaper than buying from the driver.

This is an essential ingredient but as far as I know that isn't done anywhere at the moment. It was a key part of how they got cash payment down to a trivial level enabling driver payment to be scrapped.

 

[PeterC]

With Carousel TOTO only supports single fares so it is often cheaper to buy a return from the driver.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With Carousel TOTO only supports single fares so it is often cheaper to buy a return from the driver.

That sounds like a very poor policy - you want to encourage its use because it speeds up operation and thus reduces cost. Overconservatism in the industry? Were it not for COVID we might still have some ultra-conservative operations remaining cash only.

 

[stadler]

First Bus (Norfolk and Suffolk) and Konectbus (Norfolk) are the latest to adopt single-operator schemes courtesy of Norfolk CC's BSIP.

In the longer term, once the West Midlands multi-operator cEMV Broker gets up and running they'll roll it out to other local authorities across England.

Project Coral contactless EMV Broker (multi-operator PAYG) progress

Back in July the West Midlands Combined Authority agreed a £13.4m drawdown of their City Region Sustainable Transport Settlement to progress the creation of a cEMV broker that non-London local authorities across England can eventually utilise for their various planned multi-operator contactless...

www.railforums.co.uk

Their Vix ERG TP5800s can already support it; I used TOTO between Leicester and Market Harborough on the Stagecoach X7 a couple of years ago.

Barring any recent changes the existing contract with Vix will end next year and elsewhere on this forum it's been suggested they're trialling a Flowbird Infigo4 (looks like the TP5800) and a Ticketer-lookalike (probably the TransMach TM700, which is replacing Reading Transport's Ticketers).


I suspect it's the usual TP5800, as above.

That new "Infigo 4" is just the "Wayfarer 6" rebranded. It is clearly the same exact machine. Lothian and Translink currently use it on their buses.

With Carousel TOTO only supports single fares so it is often cheaper to buy a return from the driver.

That is a problem with dozens of operators. Go Ahead Brighton & Hove and Go Ahead Metrobus are the only two operators i know of that do Tap On Tap Off return tickets (so for example if A to B is £2.00 single or £3.00 return then you get charged £2.00 on your outward journey and £1.00 on your return journey) on their buses. Almost every other company is still cheaper to buy a paper ticket for returns.

That sounds like a very poor policy - you want to encourage its use because it speeds up operation and thus reduces cost. Overconservatism in the industry? Were it not for COVID we might still have some ultra-conservative operations remaining cash only.

There are still quite a few small cash only bus operators. Most of them are small little community bus companies or tiny independents that just run infrequent rural routes where over 90% of passengers have ENCTS passes. But they still exist to this day.

 

[johncrossley]

With Carousel TOTO only supports single fares so it is often cheaper to buy a return from the driver.

The solution here is to remove the return fare. Returns don't make much sense for local buses. Under deregulation they were used as a way of stopping passengers use competing firms but that's not really relevant in 2025.

 

[stadler]

The solution here is to remove the return fare. Returns don't make much sense for local buses. Under deregulation they were used as a way of stopping passengers use competing firms but that's not really relevant in 2025.

Selling returns speeds up dwell time for passengers buying paper tickets and paying in cash. One transaction is quicker than two. Also getting rid of returns will mean an increase in fares as operators will almost certainly not lower the singles.

 

[dgl]

TOTO in First Dorset/Wessex land works quite well, with daily and weekly capping in force where the maximum you pay in a day is the appropriate day ticket price (either the Weymouth (that covers Portland and Dorchester as well) or the Dorset day ticket that also covers the Bridport to Yeovil service)).

After the second day in a week the price paid reduces until it matches the price of the appropriate weekly ticket and from then on it no longer charges you.

All buses have tap off readers though you can still tap off on the drivers machine if the tap off reader is not working.
If for some reason you forget to tap off it'll just charge you the £3 capped fare, so unless you are doing a short £2.40 journey there is no penalty if you forget to tap off.

However if you only do one or two journeys outside of the weymouth ticket area then buying a weekly Weymouth and paying for the extra journeys is probably still cheaper, as is buying a monthly ticket, as no only is a monthly ticket cheaper than four weekly tickets, it lasts for the amount of days in that month, so for any month other than February you get a few more days than what four weekly tickets would give you.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Selling returns speeds up dwell time for passengers buying paper tickets and paying in cash.

Obviously with TOTO the aim is to reduce the number of people doing this and encourage them to use TOTO instead, of course, as this is much faster than even half the time taken to purchase a paper ticket.

One transaction is quicker than two. Also getting rid of returns will mean an increase in fares as operators will almost certainly not lower the singles.

Theoretically widespread TOTO adoption should mean lower fares as it reduces the cost of operation. A typical high frequency urban route might be able to take one or two vehicles out of the circuit if dwell times can be substantially reduced, or alternatively you have a much more punctual service - both of these things save money.

 

[johncrossley]

Returns for buses are problematic for similar reasons why they are for trains. Single fares could end up being artificially inflated, discouraging triangular trips.

 

[dgl]

Of course with TOTO you can just program the system to detect another transaction from the same card and charge for a return as necessary, similar to the day ticket caps some systems have.

 

[PeterC]

Of course with TOTO you can just program the system to detect another transaction from the same card and charge for a return as necessary, similar to the day ticket caps some systems have.

Indeed. In fact the same GoAhead operating unit manages that with the Oxford Park and Ride fares.

With regard to triangular journeys or trips requiring a change of bus you are far more likely, in the case if Carousel, to hit the zonal fare cap so the problem goes away.

 

[johncrossley]

With regard to triangular journeys or trips requiring a change of bus you are far more likely, in the case if Carousel, to hit the zonal fare cap so the problem goes away.

Return passengers shouldn't be paying less than people making a single journey which requires a change of bus.