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Catering on Trains - A Healthy Approach?

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Bletchleyite

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The very same.

If you are attempting to imply the Dutch have the same attitude to and consumption habits of food in general as the Brits, you are ignorant of the Dutch. That's no "gotcha"

Having sort of lived there (weekly commuted) for 9 months some years back, I have a reasonable idea about Dutch culture, and while it's a *bit* healthier than most of the UK (mostly because of the bicycle being the default mode of transport rather than the car, though to be fair car use is still very popular) I haven't noticed their attitude to food being substantially different, no. They eat foods similar to us in similar situations, including eating all that greasy junk when taking a train. The reason they don't sell food on their trains is simply the same as why we don't sell food on most local and regional trains here either - because the journeys are short and you can buy from a wide range of options on the station or nearby before you board.

The sort of thing people were eating in the works canteen, for example, was exactly the same as people would be here. Just with chocolate sprinkles on their cheese sandwiches instead of pickle :)
 
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speedy1

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We'll agree to disagree then. Obviously there is nothing to be learned from a country whose obese population is 16.9% compared to the UK's 28.7%. It's definitely just down to the bicycles :)
 

dk1

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Completely agree. I think that some people eat on trains due to boredom and to pass the time. We just seem to live in an all day snacking society nowadays.
It’s often quite amusing to look around on a longer distance train and almost everyone is munching away. As soon as the buffet is announced there’s often a stampede and I’m thinking we only just left a major town or city five minutes ago.
 

renegademaster

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Just a reminder that their isn't any actual scientific basis on the "Ultra processed food" moral panic going on at the moment. The definition is entirely arbitrary. Just because something comes in a plastic wrapper doesn't make it inherently unhealthy.

We have a high obesity rate because we eat more food. Why we eat more food than others is a very complex question. Japan has a low obesity rate but lots of processed food and invented many forms of popular junk food like pot noodles.

Our obesity rate isn't the highest in Europe but it's on the higher end (Do Czechs eat more UPFs than us?). French often turn their noses up at British food and then their stations have sandwiches in vending machines with a 2 months expiry date.
 

Brush 4

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These are 2 European buffet cars. First in Poland, second in Sweden. I waited until others had left to take the pics.

Note nice condiments set on Polish train.

Note the wall cabinets for food items in Sweden, help yourself and pay at counter.

We could do this in Britain if the TOC's could be bothered but, they aren't.

Europe 2018 004.JPGDSCN0213a.JPG
 
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Bletchleyite

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These are 2 European buffet cars. First in Poland, second in Sweden. I waited until others had left to take the pics.

Note nice condiments set on Polish train.

Note the wall cabinets for food items in Sweden, help yourself and pay at counter.

We could do this in Britain if the TOC's could be bothered but, they aren't.

View attachment 193118View attachment 193119

This sort of thing is typically on long InterCity trips, of which there are few in the UK? I do think something like that would work on things like the Highland Chieftain and Penzance services and maybe some of XC (one reason I think a dedicated fleet for these very long runs would be good). How profitable it would be is another question, though - the UK's relatively high minimum wage (not that that's a bad thing) does limit the viability a bit?
 

3141

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Everybody is entitled to their own idea of where health lies.
They can think what they like, but they may be wrong.

Everyone is entitled to like or not like certain types of food. Eating or drinking the ones they like may make them feel good, but that doesn't mean what they've consumed is healthy.
 

Brubulus

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VENDING MACHINES. For trolly replacement, there are off the shelf options that would work perfectly and enable expansion of onboard catering + massive reduction in cost. There are also hot food vending machines now that could be rolled out the IC network and be a massive improvement on a trolley.
 

Jimini

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I still miss the pub buffet car on HSTs between Paddington and Reading. Now that was high yield catering :lol:
 

HSTEd

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This sort of thing is typically on long InterCity trips, of which there are few in the UK? I do think something like that would work on things like the Highland Chieftain and Penzance services and maybe some of XC (one reason I think a dedicated fleet for these very long runs would be good). How profitable it would be is another question, though - the UK's relatively high minimum wage (not that that's a bad thing) does limit the viability a bit?
If we are in a position that you can only justify it on a handful of long distance trains, is the supporting apparatus really worth bothering with in the first place?

Especially as all floor area devoted to this stuff can't be used to get people from A to B - which is the ultimate purpose of the railway.
 

EuxtonNeutral

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Is there a market for actual decent, fresh food on a trolley service? It seems that barring the odd First Class offering, most options on board a train are ultra processed rubbish that is wrapped in various bits of plastic.

I know there is the logistical problem to solve but would something like fresh soups, dhals, fruit, etc be achievable? Or is is just not worth it for the TOC? With the change in attitude to health and well being, especially from the younger generation, it may be popular.

GBR could run an ad' campaign in partnership with the NHS saying they are doing their bit!
I don't see any reason at all why this couldn't be done with GBR - it's totally within the DfT's gift to guide this kind of strategy. Yes it will cost, but everything does. If you want people to travel by train and have access to healthy whole foods then this could be part of that. The enlightened social democratic view is that you spend up front on these kind of initiatives and save down the line on the NHS being less battered by type 2 diabetes (and perhaps better mental health at a population level from living in a nicer, better functioning country ). I don't think it's particularly likely to happen, mind.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I don't know how popular this would be in the UK but on the Indian and Pakistani railways you get people coming down serving bulk-made portions of food, like biryani. You sometimes don't get much choice beyond veg or non-veg, and you do have to wait for someone to come down rather than going to a buffet counter to get it on demand when you want it, but it is very popular. The food I had on their railways was absolutely delicious. And it would save a lot of catering staff time to just have a big pot of it made, portioned out, and sold as is instead of an extensive cooked to order menu. Hot, healthy, brought to your seat, and could be done cheaper as well.

It doesn't cater well to food intolerances and allergies but if you designed a menu to avoid the main allergens and intolerances that would resolve most of that issue.

I think the UK values choice too much. If you go into a supermarket and go to the veg aisle you'll find like 80 different types of bread. On a train especially you could really get away with just one type and a gluten free type. If you're a picky eater, bring your own food.
Would agree with the point about choice, which is often illusory. E.g. Tesco meal deal, where the choice is between several types of bland, nutrition-free, ultra-processed rubbish. What kind of choice is that.
 

signed

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VENDING MACHINES. For trolly replacement, there are off the shelf options that would work perfectly and enable expansion of onboard catering + massive reduction in cost. There are also hot food vending machines now that could be rolled out the IC network and be a massive improvement on a trolley.
Yes, shown to work at least in France (on TER Normandie, but will come to IC soon with the Oxygène stock), Italy (where all refurbed ICs now have them) and some Swiss operators. Coffee and sandwiches are all that most want from a train café.
 

Bletchleyite

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Yes, shown to work at least in France (on TER Normandie, but will come to IC soon with the Oxygène stock), Italy (where all refurbed ICs now have them) and some Swiss operators. Coffee and sandwiches are all that most want from a train café.

Quality coffee is the main one. While some fudges like coffee bags and personal filters sort of work, people want high quality espresso based coffees these days (and are willing to pay richly for them) - instant is basically dead other than at home. That said it is possible to put a Nespresso machine (or something along those lines) on a trolley, and a classic or catering Nespresso machine does provide pretty passable espresso - not perfect, but probably better than the burnt rubbish Starbucks churns out.
 

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While some fudges like coffee bags and personal filters sort of work, people want high quality espresso based coffees these days (and are willing to pay richly for them) - instant is basically dead other than at home
A lot of coffee vending machines now are bean-to-cup, even in a lot of railway stations here, there is no reason someone wouldn't be able to make a appropriately sized and safety compliant bean-to-cup machines for trains (I don't know what types the machines in the countries I mention are).
 
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Bletchleyite

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A lot of coffee vending machines now are bean-to-cup, even in a lot of railway stations here, there is no reason someone wouldn't be able to make a appropriately sized and safety compliant bean-to-cup machines for trains (I don't know what types the machines in the countries I mention are).

Yeah, the Costa Express machines are common all over the UK and arguably produce better coffee than the human operators of the manual machines in their coffee shops do at times!

The concern with a rail application would be whether they can cope with the vibration and whether they would be adequately maintained or just broken all the time. But it does seem to be working in some countries, and it is probably true that coffee is the thing you're most likely to sell on board on longer journeys (because unless you have a flask you're only going to take one cup on and you may want more than one).
 

ExRes

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I'd love to see a heavily loaded, rush hour let's say, train with a trolley or two crawling through each carriage steaming and spitting the odd coffee out with nowhere left to stand for the already crushed passengers, nowhere to pass said trolleys to get to the toilets, if provided or working, or to the doors, talk about living in a dream world

As for healthy eating/living, anyone been to a supermarket recently? stuffed from entrance to exit with booze, chocolate, biscuits, fizzy drinks and processed food, anyone passed an empty McDonalds? anyone been to a hospital recently? overweight NHS staff lecturing people on healthy eating, NHS staff standing around smoking

The stable door isn't open it's been taken off the hinges and used as firewood
 

Bletchleyite

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I'd love to see a heavily loaded, rush hour let's say, train with a trolley or two crawling through each carriage steaming and spitting the odd coffee out with nowhere left to stand for the already crushed passengers, nowhere to pass said trolleys to get to the toilets, if provided or working, or to the doors, talk about living in a dream world

You sound like you've been on a peak time GWR train between Paddington and Reading there, it seems a very accurate description! :)
 

signed

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The concern with a rail application would be whether they can cope with the vibration and whether they would be adequately maintained or just broken all the time.
Maintenance would be an issue, but I don't see why vibrations would be an issue at all?
 

Trainbike46

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Maintenance would be an issue, but I don't see why vibrations would be an issue at all?
Vibrations and movements cause lots of machines to break, so I would be very confident at least some coffee machines will in fact break very quickly if operated on a train. There are undoubtedly also machines available that will do absolutely fine. This is one of the reasons vehicles do quite often have specially designed versions of certain equipment.
 
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renegademaster

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Tesco meal deal, where the choice is between several types of bland, nutrition-free, ultra-processed rubbish. What kind of choice is that.
Nobody is stopping anyone from buying one of their several salads you can get as part of the meal deals

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Yeah, the Costa Express machines are common all over the UK and arguably produce better coffee than the human operators of the manual machines in their coffee shops do at times!

The concern with a rail application would be whether they can cope with the vibration and whether they would be adequately maintained or just broken all the time. But it does seem to be working in some countries, and it is probably true that coffee is the thing you're most likely to sell on board on longer journeys (because unless you have a flask you're only going to take one cup on and you may want more than one).
It seems to be their must be a regulation somewhere that customers shouldn't be given just cups on their own to walk down the train. All the operators will make you a coffee and then put the coffee in a paper bag and then give it to you. Even railtours do this so it must be a regulation written somewhere.
 

yorksrob

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The trolley on the S&C does a good selection of flapjacks as well as ice cream in summer.

Probably classed as "highly processed", but then so seems to be everything remotely edible nowadays.
 

AlterEgo

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Yes, shown to work at least in France (on TER Normandie, but will come to IC soon with the Oxygène stock), Italy (where all refurbed ICs now have them) and some Swiss operators. Coffee and sandwiches are all that most want from a train café.
DB also have vending machines on their new Talgos, so it is an increasing trend.
 

Bletchleyite

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It seems to be their must be a regulation somewhere that customers shouldn't be given just cups on their own to walk down the train. All the operators will make you a coffee and then put the coffee in a paper bag and then give it to you. Even railtours do this so it must be a regulation written somewhere.

I did think of this, but find it a very odd regulation given that you can board with one you've already bought. It might be more of an issue for tea, but coffee isn't typically served at scalding temperatures* anyway, it's nothing like the days when you used to have boiling water from the Mk3 buffet (which always looked dangerous when it was coming out of the spout into the pouring jug, it typically was going everywhere) poured over some instant and a separate little sachet of milk. Most espresso based coffees aren't served at a temperature where they're going to cause serious injury if spilled these days, you can normally drink them immediately without scalding your mouth. That's one reason why a fancy coffee machine isn't a very good way to make tea - the water isn't boiling as making coffee with boiling water ruins it!

* Hence the famous McDonald's case. Tea is meant to be made with boiling water, but coffee isn't (it scalds the beans), so the root of what seemed on the face of it a frivolous "sue me culture" type legal case was actually well-founded, because McD were storing the coffee at close to boiling because it kept better, and thus creating an unnecessary health and safety issue purely to save themselves money.
 

signed

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It seems to be their must be a regulation somewhere that customers shouldn't be given just cups on their own to walk down the train. All the operators will make you a coffee and then put the coffee in a paper bag and then give it to you. Even railtours do this so it must be a regulation written somewhere.

This appears to be a long-standing operator policy, critiqued as far back as 2011 and on that article in 2018
Virgin Trains has come under fire from environmental groups over a “hopeless” health and safety policy which insists hot drinks bought on its trains must be put in a paper bag before passengers can carry them back to their seats.

The train operating company confirmed all hot food and drinks purchased in its onboard shops are placed in bags for “customer safety”.

But the rule has sparked anger among environmentalists, who accused Virgin Trains of adding to the “mountains of waste” already created in the UK each year.

Allison Ogden-Newton, chief executive of environmental charity Keep Britain Tidy, said: “Giving away a paper bag with every hot drink adds insult to injury – a single-use cup in a single-use bag! Hopeless.”

“Virgin Trains need to look at their sustainability strategy urgently to reduce waste for all our sakes, but especially for future generations.”



Friends of the Earth plastics campaigner Emma Priestland said it is “always best” to avoid unnecessary single-use packaging, regardless of whether it is plastic or paper.

“Avoiding the risk of spilling a hot drink is understandable so why not encourage customers to use a high quality reusable coffee cup with a strong seal?” she asked.

Complaints about the policy on social media stretch as far back as 2011, with many customers questioning the logic of trying to prevent spillages with paper bags, while others branded it wasteful.

One traveller described how Virgin staff were happy to put her tea in the reusable cup she had brought onboard – only to place it into a single-use back because it did not have a fully-sealable lid.

A spokesperson for Virgin Trains defended the policy, saying: “Safety is always our top priority. Hot food and drinks purchased from our onboard shop is placed in a bag for customer safety, a policy adopted by many other train operators.”

They added: “To help reduce waste we recently introduced a 20p discount for customers who bring a reusable cup for their hot drinks. We also have recycling bins at stations to collect mixed dry recycling that can be reused or repurposed.”


The company is not alone in implementing such a rule. Translink also admitted that its passenger are given paper bags when buying hot drinks “to help minimise the impact of hot liquid spillage”.

Meanwhile, Green Party deputy leader Amelia Womack told HuffPost UK there must be a bigger, coordinated strategy between railways companies and platform coffee shops to “reduce the level of rubbish being churned out and make train journeys less wasteful”.

“As someone who regularly travels across the country by train in my role as deputy leader, I’m all too familiar with the amount of waste rail travel produces,” she said. “There’s a lack of obvious recycling services and until recently most networks wouldn’t even accept my reusable cup.”
 

GuyGibsonVC

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I remember listening to a programme on Radio 4 about pioneering NHS Trusts working to improve hospital meals through initiatives like cooking from scratch, sourcing local ingredients, and incorporating dietetic leadership to meet diverse patient needs. The outcome of this was that they actually started saving money as well as having better health outcomes for their patients.

Obviously, this doesn't fit in with catering on trains but it does have tenuous links in terms of catering contracts and finance.
 

sh24

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Hospitals are, I suspect, easier to manage. One location that doesn't move, more predictable demand profile and many likely have well equipped kitchens to support the prep.
 

Bletchleyite

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Hospitals are, I suspect, easier to manage. One location that doesn't move, more predictable demand profile and many likely have well equipped kitchens to support the prep.

Heathy doesn't have to mean grilled chicken and salad, in any case. Things like chilli, bolognese and stews are healthy and are very easy to microwave in a pot. This sort of thing is great for on train catering as it doesn't require refrigeration. Sandwiches are a common offering but aren't great as they only have a short life.
 

renegademaster

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Heathy doesn't have to mean grilled chicken and salad, in any case. Things like chilli, bolognese and stews are healthy and are very easy to microwave in a pot. This sort of thing is great for on train catering as it doesn't require refrigeration. Sandwiches are a common offering but aren't great as they only have a short life.
Bolognese is isn't that healthy , it's a ton of empty carbs, some likely very sugary tomato sauce, and some normally low grade mince. People have convinced if something sounds sophisticated it's healthy and stuff people poorer than them like must be unhealthy
 

spyinthesky

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It may well be a personal thing but I’ve never found the fascination of buying anything to eat or drink on a station or train.
Whilst my pocket can afford it my mental health can’t.
Paying £2 for a banana or £3.50 for a few pieces of melon just doesn’t sound healthy to me.
 

3141

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VENDING MACHINES. For trolly replacement, there are off the shelf options that would work perfectly and enable expansion of onboard catering + massive reduction in cost. There are also hot food vending machines now that could be rolled out the IC network and be a massive improvement on a trolley.
That's interesting. But, as with almost everything, there are other relevant factors. These machines would take up some space which therefore cannot be used for seats. As some may remember, when Arriva won the XC franchise in 2007 (?), their bid included the removal of the shop to provide more seating space. On a nine-car IET, there'd be a strong case for installing two of the machines you describe in different locations reduce to the distance some passengers would have to walk to get to the machine. On services where the present-day trolley has difficulty getting past standing passengers, those walking to the vending machine and back would encounter the same experience. So it appears to be a matter of trade-offs.
As for healthy eating/living, anyone been to a supermarket recently? stuffed from entrance to exit with booze, chocolate, biscuits, fizzy drinks and processed food, anyone passed an empty McDonalds? anyone been to a hospital recently? overweight NHS staff lecturing people on healthy eating, NHS staff standing around smoking

The stable door isn't open it's been taken off the hinges and used as firewood
Yes, I visit a hospital usually three times every three months. Once for a blood test, once for a clinic, and the third time is A&E when a problem has developed with a piece of equipment I need to use.

I do see some overweight NHS staff. I haven't observed any of them lecturing people on healthy eating. It's possible that some staff do smoke, but as I'm inside and they would be outside I don't see it happening. I do occasionally see patients who seem to be angry about everything.
 
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