UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[jon0844]

I would say tax evasion is more serious than fibbing to an insurance company. I don't fancy HMRC knocking on my door.

Most modern cars have the ability to see numerous parameters in an app. Certainly on my last 2 cars this has included total mileage. This indicates that the car is sending this information to 'the cloud' before it arrives on my phone. It wouldn't bother me to give permission for mileage info to be shared with HMRC and billed automatically.

There's no standardised system for this though, so I can't see HMRC being able to negotiate with every car maker to have it send, securely, mileage data, VIN details and whatever else. Plus there are a number of cars that don't have the cellular connection, including a number of cars that only had 2G and 3G support. Now 3G is switched off, many won't even be able to send data reliably on GPRS or EDGE standards. Some cars can be upgraded, many cannot - and this includes EVs that aren't even that old (less than five years in the case of many Stellantis vehicles).

Also, I think a lot of people have no real fear of HMRC and will see this is a bit of a game and there being no harm done if they lie about how much they've driven.

It's quite possible to make all cars made after a certain time have the means to send the necessary data, and to disallow the future registration of vehicles that don't, but then you have a system that only applies from this day on - and no way to manage older vehicles. Of course with EVs still (relatively speaking) in their infancy, that might potentially work.

You could also force all other EVs to have hardware fitted, but I think the Government knew this wouldn't fly and that's why they're opting for a half-assed idea.

 

[Mawkie]

I appreciate this is just a brainstorming session after the 3p a mile announcement, but if we're getting into it, I remember a time when banks said they couldn't/wouldn't/shouldn't have to report interest on savings accounts to HMRC. Look what happened there.

If HMG want to, they could simply require manufacturers from a point in time (is it 2029?) to report personalised annual mileages for their vehicles, perhaps with the addition of my NI number when registering for the app.

In reality, the annual MOT is a perfect time to record an authorised mileage (and if it was me, I wouldn't bother with getting it checked for the first 3 years. I'd just add £250 to VED for years 1,2 & 3 as people who can afford new cars can afford the small comparative extra cost).

 

[GLC]

including a number of cars that only had 2G and 3G support. Now 3G is switched off, many won't even be able to send data reliably on GPRS or EDGE standards.

My car’s app works by the car sending status updates via SMS (and mileage info is included as part of this). It doesn’t have to use a data connection specifically to get the mileage

 

[jon0844]

My car’s app works by the car sending status updates via SMS (and mileage info is included as part of this). It doesn’t have to use a data connection specifically to get the mileage

No, but my point was not all cars have the cellular connection. I don't think it's a requirement for all cars to have the means to call SOS or customer services, although many do. If it was, and there's nothing to say it couldn't be made so, then you'd be half way there.

I do know that the car industry has loads of standards and certifications, so it isn't just a case of bolting on a system when it needs to be tested so as not to impact other vital systems. Every car would likely need testing (car model, not literal every car!) and clearly this is too complicated and expensive, hence the 'hey, let's just get people to tell us the mileage'.

I'm positive that between now and 2028 we'll see a clarification of how it will work, or the idea will be quietly delayed.

 

[styles]

My thoughts are rather less rational - I do around 3.5k miles per year and charge at home at 25p/kWh or whatever. It's still cheaper than running a diesel car for example. But from next month I get free bus travel (in England at least) and my wife will hopefully from late 2027 unless they scrap it by then. I do one long trip to the railway each week (far too early for busses) - 50 miles - otherwise it's shopping and the odd day out. In my case I can see us not even having a car by 2028, saving the cost of the car plus servicing, MoT, VED, and insurance. That bundle would see us a decent flight every year plus the occasional car hire if needed. Pity there isn't one of those car clubs in walking distance.

Right now I am at the point of looking for a new car as the warranty on our current EV expires in June. I am minded not to bother and just run the current car to 2028.

This is the broader point often forgotten. Getting us from ICEs to EVs is a good thing. But reducing the car dominant nature of our society is a whole other thing.

I saw it described in a campaign once as using 'the right tool for the job'. Going to the corner shop? Probably walk. Taking the kids to school 1mi away? Probably cycle or scoot. Going to do the weekly food shop? Probably take the car (though order online may be better). Going to IKEA to buy a desk and an office chair? Probably do hourly van hire. Heading to London for a weekend break? Probably take the train.

For too many of our trips we're taking cars because we think well I've already paid insurance, VED, MOT, service, capital cost of the car. If we can find a way of encouraging alternative modes of transport for journeys where a car isn't really the right tool for the job, that would solve a lot of issues. The school run is an obvious candidate. Where I lived before now we had people driving children half a mile to school. That's a 10 minute walk. There's always going to be edge cases like where both parents need to be at work for 9am etc but there's many attitudes to walking and cycling that have just changed so drastically, in the wrong direction, in recent decades.

 

[Peter Sarf]

This is the broader point often forgotten. Getting us from ICEs to EVs is a good thing. But reducing the car dominant nature of our society is a whole other thing.

I saw it described in a campaign once as using 'the right tool for the job'. Going to the corner shop? Probably walk. Taking the kids to school 1mi away? Probably cycle or scoot. Going to do the weekly food shop? Probably take the car (though order online may be better). Going to IKEA to buy a desk and an office chair? Probably do hourly van hire. Heading to London for a weekend break? Probably take the train.

For too many of our trips we're taking cars because we think well I've already paid insurance, VED, MOT, service, capital cost of the car. If we can find a way of encouraging alternative modes of transport for journeys where a car isn't really the right tool for the job, that would solve a lot of issues. The school run is an obvious candidate. Where I lived before now we had people driving children half a mile to school. That's a 10 minute walk. There's always going to be edge cases like where both parents need to be at work for 9am etc but there's many attitudes to walking and cycling that have just changed so drastically, in the wrong direction, in recent decades.

I agree, the agenda should be about making it easier for people to avoid using a car where possible. Unfortunately the car manufacturing industry will prefer people to switch from ICE to EV and leave alone alternatives to cars.

Getting rid of Vehicle Excise Duty and loading the costs on actual usage will help that by making walking, cycling or bus an economic decision rather than the current "I have paid for the car so lets use it" attitude.

My fixed costs are about £450 road tax, £450 insurance, £40 MOT and £65 car recovery - coming to just over £1000 before I use the car and cause maintenance/servicing. Imagine if that £1000 was reduced and more dependant on mileage ?.

For the big shops I use the car including roof bars for jobs a van might be called for. But hiring a car/van instead for the odd occasions is something I have resorted to for a few years at a time. I have had periods without a car and I miss it but then wonder why I have subsequently bought one. On balance, despite living in London, I find having no car a bit of a hardship.

I walk the ten minutes to the supermarket and buy roughly what I can carry - we have a trolley if I remember to take it. But there is a cultural change/reversal required. We go shopping more than once per week - this is made easier by the supermarket being near enough to walk to. We have destroyed our more local resources (shops) in favour of out of town drive to shopping areas. Town centres where the buses tend to radiate from are dying.

It gets worse - The "civilised world" has even graduated to drive through meal outlets !.

Now this is arguably off topic for a thread about EVs - except I do not see EVs as a solution to our reliance on the (motor) car.
Not until we charge by actual use (mileage + time + route). At the moment EVs have less of a cost for use regime than the ICEs they are replacing. That is counterproductive.

 

[Noddy]

If we can find a way of encouraging alternative modes of transport for journeys where a car isn't really the right tool for the job, that would solve a lot of issues. The school run is an obvious candidate. Where I lived before now we had people driving children half a mile to school. That's a 10 minute walk. There's always going to be edge cases like where both parents need to be at work for 9am etc but there's many attitudes to walking and cycling that have just changed so drastically, in the wrong direction, in recent decades.

will help that by making walking, cycling or bus an economic decision rather than the current "I have paid for the car so lets use it" attitude.

I totally agree with the aim, the issue (which I also find totally understandable) is that our cycling infrastructure (especially) and even some pedestrian infrastructure is not fit for purpose. For many it’s not an economic or time issue, it’s a safety issue.

Near to me is a primary school the pavement out side must be less than 1.5m wide. You can barely fit two children side by side, let alone adults on it. Many of the kids come from an adjacent area which (as pedestrians/cyclists) involves crossing a very busy roundabout on a trunk road and at one being forced into the highway because the pavement disappears where it crosses (ironically enough) a railway line. I don’t think the pavement is a shared use space so theoretically no-one should be cycling on it. The road is a 50mph road. Ok this is a bit of an extreme example because it’s a rural area but in urban areas infrastructure is often unsafe or at least inappropriate for children to ride to school safely. Even in London where there has been a lot of investment it’s still decades behind the Netherlands and Belgium. It’s unfortunate because I actually think the British attitude to cycling has changed massively for the better in the last two decades, it’s just not fed through to the infrastructure/town planning environment.

 

[johncrossley]

It’s unfortunate because I actually think the British attitude to cycling has changed massively for the better in the last two decades

Are you sure about that? I still see a lot of hostility to cycling on the internet, even on this forum.

 

[Energy]

Are you sure about that? I still see a lot of hostility to cycling on the internet, even on this forum.

Really depends on where. In central London, cycling is far more accepted, with Lime bikes being very culturally accepted.

 

[MatthewHutton]

No, but my point was not all cars have the cellular connection.

Probably all EVs do. The app is way more useful for an EV as you can control charging and warming/cooling the car for departure.

 

[jon0844]

Probably all EVs do. The app is way more useful for an EV as you can control charging and warming/cooling the car for departure.

Perhaps, I don't know. But would it go right back to the first ones?

And would the car makers allow a software update to facilitate sending information to HMRC? Would they even support older cars by doing updates?

 

[Joe Paxton]

[...]
I prefer to walk for the short trips and really wish the state would discourage short car trips. Granted EVs are less polluting but getting rid of a lot of the school runs for instance would improve traffic smoothness greatly. Now for EVs this would mean a pricing regime that penalises very short trips (unless driver/owner is disabled). For ICE (petrol/Diesel) the higher fuel usage when cold infers higher costs - also short hops are not good fo the engine.

I think a mileage based charge has to come.

I think road tax unfairly penalises people like me who use their car sparingly.
[...]

One thing you haven't mentioned is where you park your car - is it on the public street, or on a driveway?

One could argue that should also be a factor in vehicle tax rates alongside a pay-per-mile regime... that said, the downside being that it'd encourage more people to convert front gardens to driveways which I'd consider a 'bad thing' - less space for nature, aesthetically poorer, more water runoff, and creates safety issues for pavement users etc.

 

[Peter Sarf]

One thing you haven't mentioned is where you park your car - is it on the public street, or on a driveway?

One could argue that should also be a factor in vehicle tax rates alongside a pay-per-mile regime... that said, the downside being that it'd encourage more people to convert front gardens to driveways which I'd consider a 'bad thing' - less space for nature, aesthetically poorer, more water runoff, and creates safety issues for pavement users etc.

Parked on the road I am afraid. Option is to convert the garden but that is bad in so many ways as you say.

Really depends on where. In central London, cycling is far more accepted, with Lime bikes being very culturally accepted.

Cough, you are joking ? - Lime Bikes - a scourge. Dumped all over the place with no regard to other users of the pavement Even watched someone who's job it is to relocate them leave several dozen on the pavement blocking a pelican crossing !. I have seen them chucked over a fence and in someones garden. Apparently Sadiq Khan is considering them losing their franchise. Of course the main problem is the humans that use them.

The "Santander" (name iirc ?) bikes are far less intrusive as they seem to have to be parked in the supplied docking stations which are positioned with far more thought than dumped lime bikes. I assume these do not get left in awkward places because the user has to dock them in a docking station.

 

[MatthewHutton]

Perhaps, I don't know. But would it go right back to the first ones?

And would the car makers allow a software update to facilitate sending information to HMRC? Would they even support older cars by doing updates?

Mine is pretty old and has an app, but yes maybe the very first ones that are over 10 years old don’t have an app. But I thought they were going to work it out from the MOT anyway.

 

[E27007]

Another aspect of the budget, the expensive car supplement "luxury car tax" threshold will both rise and be backdated to April 2025 from £40,000 to £50,000 for ZEVs, for some purchasers the change will offset the introduction of eVed and the 3p / mile charge

 

[jon0844]

Another aspect of the budget, the expensive car supplement "luxury car tax" threshold will both rise and be backdated to April 2025 from £40,000 to £50,000 for ZEVs, for some purchasers the change will offset the introduction of eVed and the 3p / mile charge

That's nice for the people affording high end cars. Especially when EVs are getting cheaper so you might now be able to get an even bigger and heavier car....

 

[Peter Sarf]

Another aspect of the budget, the expensive car supplement "luxury car tax" threshold will both rise and be backdated to April 2025 from £40,000 to £50,000 for ZEVs, for some purchasers the change will offset the introduction of eVed and the 3p / mile charge

I cannot believe it. Put the tax threshold up on a luxury but essentials like earnings get no improvement on the threshold !. Really does not send the right message about economic EV motoring.

 

[E27007]

I cannot believe it. Put the tax threshold up on a luxury but essentials like earnings get no improvement on the threshold !. Really does not send the right message about economic EV motoring.

The primary reason for raising the tax threshold may be to help the car makers move product , makers who are struggling both with the costs of the ZEV transition and market resistance, car sales by volume remain consistently below levels pre-Covid, do recall the VW group CEO who declared "the factory roof is on fire" as he seeks to control costs in the face of competition from China

 

[JamesT]

The primary reason for raising the tax threshold may be to help the car makers move product , makers who are struggling both with the costs of the ZEV transition and market resistance, do recall the VW group CEO who declared "the factory roof is on fire" as he seeks to control costs in the group

Especially as the structure of the winddown of ICE production is to penalise manufacturers for selling too large a percentage of ICE cars. So if they can't sell enough EVs, they'll have to restrict ICE sales, pushing up all the prices.

 

[jon0844]

The primary reason for raising the tax threshold may be to help the car makers move product , makers who are struggling both with the costs of the ZEV transition and market resistance, car sales by volume remain consistently below levels pre-Covid, do recall the VW group CEO who declared "the factory roof is on fire" as he seeks to control costs in the face of competition from China

Too many car makers opted to make big, heavy, expensive SUVs and sell them at crazy prices (such that you can now often get one less than a year old for 50% less, or lease deals that seemed impossibly cheap). China and some sensible car makers, like Renault, realised the need to produce cheaper cars for a wider audience - and are now enjoying big sales even before the EV grants came back in.

I find it a little difficult to feel sorry for the incumbents that got caught napping because they thought they were too big to fail and nobody else could come in and steal their lunch. Now they've spent years trying to attack the Chinese, including ludicrous claims that China have fitted every car with a kill-switch*, and they've been asking the EU and UK to extend the deadlines on phasing out the sales of ICE cars.

* There are possibly some valid concerns, but with most cars being connected I am pretty sure MOST recent cars could be killed remotely if a manufacturer so desired - but they'd need to be aware of the consequences of doing so. It could be a great way to destroy all trust and go bust when nobody will ever trust you again. Plus, who says petrol and diesel cars couldn't be killed also? The means of propulsion isn't really relevant - and Chinese car makers do still make ICE cars too (or at least hybrids).

 

[Bikeman78]

I am slightly confused, because I never said you did.

I believe "we" as society do want everyone to stop driving ICE cars. The current argument appears to be that EVs are better for the environment, and by extension society, than their ICE equivalents. Hence, governments of all persuasions take steps to promote EVs.

That does not mean that every individual in society wants to drive an EV.

It's not cut and dried. As someone who predominantly cycles, I struggle with electric vehicles. Bad drivers in ICE vehicles stand out a mile. I can hear the engine approaching, or when they rev needlessly at red lights. An electric vehicle driven badly is silent at a stand and simply accelerates to 50 mph in three seconds without any warning. I had a near miss with one driven in that manner recently.

 

[Peter Sarf]

It's not cut and dried. As someone who predominantly cycles, I struggle with electric vehicles. Bad drivers in ICE vehicles stand out a mile. I can hear the engine approaching, or when they rev needlessly at red lights. An electric vehicle driven badly is silent at a stand and simply accelerates to 50 mph in three seconds without any warning. I had a near miss with one driven in that manner recently.

Oh yes EVs seem to execute their drivers errors with no warning (silently) and very very quickly.

A good reason for a black box to monitor their on-off driving technique to see if it is consistently bad.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Many modern ICEs actually shut down when queuing/stopped. They too will be silent.
Many modern ICEs make practically no different amount of noise when approaching at speeds over 15mph than EVs - and that noise is largely tyre noise. Sure, the boy-racers with oscillating throttle feet and those with monster V8s or modified exhausts make a din but they are in a minority I think. At lower speeds, EVs have a fake engine whine sound. In some it can be disabled, but the driver has to do that every time it's turned on. In some newer cars, it can't.

But yes - they can and often do accelerate far more quickly than most ICEs.

 

[E27007]

For insurance purposes, cars are categorised and graded by insurance companies for risk, a consideration for risk is the acceleration such as the time from rest to 60 mph.
Have any insurance companies expressed concerns for the capabilities of ZEVs for acceleration, capabilities of modest ZEV hatchbacks to race upto speed more easily than some IC sportscars.

 

[JamesT]

For insurance purposes, cars are categorised and graded by insurance companies for risk, a consideration for risk is the acceleration such as the time from rest to 60 mph.
Have any insurance companies expressed concerns for the capabilities of ZEVs for acceleration, capabilities of modest ZEV hatchbacks to race upto speed more easily than some IC sportscars.

The Dacia Spring appears to be in insurance groups 24/25, whereas the ICE Dacia Sandero is in 3-14. Risk is only one of the factors in insurance pricing, but that definitely looks like a premium on the EV.

 

[johncrossley]

High car insurance is one of the reasons why I wouldn't get an electric car right now. A quick internet search shows the lowest rating being group 9 for the Smart EQ Forfour, and that has been discontinued. I want group 1 or 2.

 

[Bald Rick]

Insurance risk categorisation is not only about the perfromance of the car. It is also about the potential cost to replace / repair in the event of damage. Two things here:

1) as we all know, EVs so far have been typically more expensive to buy than their ICE counterparts, and therefore more expensive to replace / repair.

2) the risk profile for EVs in terms of the costs of their probability of needing replacing / repair due to insurable events is as yet not fully developed. It is developing (quickly) as insurers develop ‘caselaw’, but at present there is still an element of the unknown. For example insurers have estimated how much it costs to repair a Renault 5EV involved in a bump, but they won’t know how accurate their estimate is until they have a decent number of data points. And so like insurance companies always do, they price in the risk.

 

[Mawkie]

Insurance risk categorisation is not only about the perfromance of the car.

Indeed, it's also the risk profile of the driver(s) and area the vehicle is kept and hundreds of other factors.

I went from an insurance group 5 to an insurance group 48 car and my insurance went from £350 to £750 which I thought was a little expensive until I spoke to people at work who are paying 3x that for their vehicles.

I think if people understood the cost of repairs on vehicles, partially 'high-end' vehicles they would understand the prices being charged by insurance companies. Matrix led headlights, sequential indicators, parking sensors, lidar sensors, heated tinting foldable electric mirrors and so on, and then add the ludicrous prices that manufacturers charge for access to the software to code these new parts...

A little knock can easily see a claim for £10k once you factor in the extortionate 3rd party "courtesy car" racket.

A big knock, where there may be some chassis damage, or battery damage - well, most insurance companies aren't set up yet to repair batteries, so they just factor in the price of a new pack.

 

[cactustwirly]

High car insurance is one of the reasons why I wouldn't get an electric car right now. A quick internet search shows the lowest rating being group 9 for the Smart EQ Forfour, and that has been discontinued. I want group 1 or 2.

A group 1 or 2 won't necessarily have lower insurance.
It's not a standard price for each group, it's a horrifically complex algorithm to determine the price, based on the colour of the car etc
You can find a group 11 car that's rare and hasn't been crashed a lot will be cheaper than a super common group 1 or 2 car etc

 

[Sun Chariot]

Insurance risk categorisation is not only about the perfromance of the car. It is also about the potential cost to replace / repair in the event of damage. Two things here:

1) as we all know, EVs so far have been typically more expensive to buy than their ICE counterparts, and therefore more expensive to replace / repair.

2) the risk profile for EVs in terms of the costs of their probability of needing replacing / repair due to insurable events is as yet not fully developed. It is developing (quickly) as insurers develop ‘caselaw’, but at present there is still an element of the unknown. For example insurers have estimated how much it costs to repair a Renault 5EV involved in a bump, but they won’t know how accurate their estimate is until they have a decent number of data points. And so like insurance companies always do, they price in the risk.

Yes, fully agree. The effect of accident damage to sensitive battery cells and/or a plethora of new tech electrical parts and electronics, is the insurance sector's "known unknown" and, as you say, priced into EV premiums