LNER Class 91 - What are the retirement plans?

[GoneSouth]

More specifically, the December 25 timetable has been rewritten to utilise the full capability of the Azuma fleet.
The mk4 needed to lose 2 coaches to enable them to accelerate and keep time.
(Think still slightly slower than Azuma).

But aren’t they going to be excessively overloaded, or are there additional services to take up displaced passengers?

 

[D365]

Could you remind us why they are reducing them to 7 please. They’re running the same routes as before and I’m fairly sure demand hasn’t fallen off a cliff! Thanks for the help.

Ah ok, presumably for improved journey times in the new timetable?

But aren’t they going to be excessively overloaded, or are there additional services to take up displaced passengers?

The whys and wherefores have been extensively discussed. The appropriate thread is linked.

 

[xotGD]

But aren’t they going to be excessively overloaded, or are there additional services to take up displaced passengers?

Yes to the first part and no to the second part. Worse than that, some of the other Leeds services will only be 5-car Azumas.

And the retimed LNER services mean broken connections at Leeds, increasing end-to-end journey times for Airedale passengers.

Passengers come last on today's railway. At least those in the West Riding do, anyway.

 

[GoneSouth]

Yes to the first part and no to the second part. Worse than that, some of the other Leeds services will only be 5-car Azumas.

And the retimed LNER services mean broken connections at Leeds, increasing end-to-end journey times for Airedale passengers.

Passengers come last on today's railway. At least those in the West Riding do, anyway.

Oh dear, another backwards step.

At least you’ll have your brand new CAF trains soon… in about 3 years!

The whys and wherefores have been extensively discussed. The appropriate thread is linked.

Thanks for the l link D365, I’ll go have a read.

 

[Tram203]

Apologies if I've missed the answer further back in the thread - will the shortened mk4 sets have any dedicated unreserved seating?

It was the entirety of coach C when they were 9 coaches.

 

[hexagon789]

Apologies if I've missed the answer further back in the thread - will the shortened mk4 sets have any dedicated unreserved seating?

It was the entirety of coach C when they were 9 coaches.

Seems to be approximately half of C.

Certainly if you make a dummy booking on the forum's ticketing website, you can reverse a seat in any coach in Standard but Coach C is shown as only having 38 seats:

 

[43094]

By 03/12 there will only be one set which will be formed of 9 coaches.

 

[tfw756rider]

By 03/12 there will only be one set which will be formed of 9 coaches.

Oh ouch, at least there will be that one though - thanks. Do you know the set number, and what it will likely work on the 2/12/25?

 

[43094]

Likely NL26, and it's too soon to tell as yet.

 

[E27007]

RTT reports 91130+NL17 9-coach set rostered to 1A09 diagram today, last Friday, NL26 rostered with 91109 on 1A09 do we know if Neville Hill has converted NL26 to a 7-coach formation since Friday?
If NL26 is the next candidate in line, then NL17 may be the sole 9-coach set left

 

[Ballyheigue]

Yes, but essentially the new timetable is based on Azuma performance, so the 225s need to be reduced in weight to approach similar acceleration performance and thus keep time.



Yes, though generally by 30 seconds between a set of stations.

I think someone said it works out at about 2.5 mins slower over London/Leeds.

So, they're stupidly cutting capacity just to save 2.5 minutes on the journey time, common sense will tell you most people really aren't that bothered about saving such a miniscule amount of time over having a seat!

 

[35B]

So, they're stupidly cutting capacity just to save 2.5 minutes on the journey time, common sense will tell you most people really aren't that bothered about saving such a miniscule amount of time over having a seat!

There’s a lot more to this timetable change, and it’s not just about the West Yorkshire services. But the omens aren’t great for what’s been kludged together in the round.

 

[E27007]

So, they're stupidly cutting capacity just to save 2.5 minutes on the journey time, common sense will tell you most people really aren't that bothered about saving such a miniscule amount of time over having a seat!

During 2024 when I "bashed" 225 sets KX to Yorkshire, 600 miles a day, loadings were not high, so 7_coaches should suffice.
This year I bash Grand Central for their 180s and 221s, loadings can be high due to the bargain fares, but not excessive, I always find a comfortable seat while I enjoy the ride

 

[800001]

RTT reports 91130+NL17 9-coach set rostered to 1A09 diagram today, last Friday, NL26 rostered with 91109 on 1A09 do we know if Neville Hill has converted NL26 to a 7-coach formation since Friday?
If NL26 is the next candidate in line, then NL17 may be the sole 9-coach set left

Post 217 and 219 refer to NL 26 being a 9 car set still

 

[hexagon789]

So, they're stupidly cutting capacity just to save 2.5 minutes on the journey time, common sense will tell you most people really aren't that bothered about saving such a miniscule amount of time over having a seat!

The 2.5 mins is how much slower a shortened 225 set is still compared to an Azuma, not the overall time savings under the new timetable.

 

[Snow1964]

So, they're stupidly cutting capacity just to save 2.5 minutes on the journey time, common sense will tell you most people really aren't that bothered about saving such a miniscule amount of time over having a seat!

I think this is more about busy 2track railway, trying to get all the trains to operate at similar speeds and headways. If some are slower they take longer to clear signal section and next train has to be further behind, so line can take less trains per hour.

The alternative would be cutting out a train, or delaying new timetable to end 2027 once new CAF stock is in service.

Actually there is a third alternative coupling up 5car sets to reduce number of trains, SWR might do this at Southampton to reduce trains at busy London end, but not LNER way, even though Azuma have automatic couplers

 

[skyhigh]

Post 217 and 219 refer to NL 26 being a 9 car set still

NL26 is currently on Neville Hill, so it wouldn't surprise me if it's now been reduced.

A post on the 225 Group page on Facebook suggests that NL17 is the last remaining 9 car set and is being stopped tonight to remove the coaches.

If anyone around today, the last fully formed set NL17 working 1A09, 1D10, 1A31,1D21,1A48 and 1D33 after today they will all be 2x7.
Couple of pictures of my last LNER ride in 11417.

Facebook

www.facebook.com

 

[tfw756rider]

NL26 is currently on Neville Hill, so it wouldn't surprise me if it's now been reduced.

A post on the 225 Group page on Facebook suggests that NL17 is the last remaining 9 car set and is being stopped tonight to remove the coaches.

Facebook

www.facebook.com

Just in time for my first InterCity 225 ride tomorrow. Oh well, I suppose I'll be riding on a 7-car set on the first day of 7-car-only operation instead

In a way it's a bit of a shame, but on the other hand, what really is the big deal whether it has 7 or 9 cars? The only "full-length" / InterCity 125 HST I rode on was a 7-car CrossCountry set.

 

[hexagon789]

Just in time for my first InterCity 225 ride tomorrow. Oh well, I suppose I'll be riding on a 7-car set on the first day of 7-car-only operation instead

In a way it's a bit of a shame, but on the other hand, what really is the big deal whether it has 7 or 9 cars? The only "full-length" / InterCity 125 HST I rode on was a 7-car CrossCountry set.

They also entered service as predominantly 91 + 7 + DVT as there were delays in Mk4 deliveries.

The intended original formations were only to be 91 + 8 + DVT.

The only real issue with it is one of seating capacity.

 

[FrontSideBus]

If they were not being canned in the next few years, how hard would it be to convert the DVT into a driving trailer with seating?
There is nothing in them like an APU ect?

 

[skyhigh]

If they were not being canned in the next few years, how hard would it be to convert the DVT into a driving trailer with seating?
There is nothing in them like an APU ect?

There's no windows for a start. So there would be some degree of alteration to the body unless you didn't bother adding them. Plus the crumple zone needed for 125mph running and alterations needed to remove the sliding doors and add powered passenger doors. The train manager's office would also need to come out.

So essentially never going to happen, even if they weren't being replaced.

If they had a long term future you'd be better off replacing the 91s with a hypothetical faster accelerating loco to match the 80x timings and keep the additional trailers.

 

[xotGD]

The only real issue with it is one of seating capacity.

And from a passenger perspective, that is the only issue that matters.

 

[Bikeman78]

So, they're stupidly cutting capacity just to save 2.5 minutes on the journey time, common sense will tell you most people really aren't that bothered about saving such a miniscule amount of time over having a seat!

It's like Connex with the CEPs all over again. Not enough seats? Don't worry, in theory you will get there two minutes faster.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2025 ==

The 2.5 mins is how much slower a shortened 225 set is still compared to an Azuma, not the overall time savings under the new timetable.

A quick look at RTT suggests that London to Leeds is typically 2h12m now and 2h9m from the new timetable.

 

[hexagon789]

quick look at RTT suggests that London to Leeds is typically 2h12m now and 2h9m from the new timetable.

Stopping patterns and station dwells are a bit altered.

The 2.5 mins came from @Railperf's analysis of, I assume, the differences in running times between stations added up.

 

[35B]

Just in time for my first InterCity 225 ride tomorrow. Oh well, I suppose I'll be riding on a 7-car set on the first day of 7-car-only operation instead

In a way it's a bit of a shame, but on the other hand, what really is the big deal whether it has 7 or 9 cars? The only "full-length" / InterCity 125 HST I rode on was a 7-car CrossCountry set.

As a passenger, you won't notice a difference in the train when you're aboard. The legroom will be slightly less than optimum, the seats will be tired but far better than an Azuma, and the WiFi will be rubbish. It will have better acceleration, that it won't be able to use*, and there will be even fewer spare seats.

* - I've lost count of the number of times I've sat south of Peterborough waiting for the train flighted three minutes ahead, and which has been non-stop Stevenage, to clear the platform so that we can follow behind.

 

[xotGD]

As a passenger, you won't notice a difference in the train when you're aboard.

It is a shorter walk from Coach B to the buffet car.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Just in time for my first InterCity 225 ride tomorrow. Oh well, I suppose I'll be riding on a 7-car set on the first day of 7-car-only operation instead

In a way it's a bit of a shame, but on the other hand, what really is the big deal whether it has 7 or 9 cars? The only "full-length" / InterCity 125 HST I rode on was a 7-car CrossCountry set.

What will be hilarious, is if you've spent all this time hoping your IC225 isn't a seven car, and then it isn't - because it's an Azuma instead Then the 7-225 won't look so bad, will it?

 

[Snow1964]

At least you’ll have your brand new CAF trains soon… in about 3 years!

The announcement of the ten 10coach CAF trains was just over 2 years ago (9th November 2023).

I guess they can be phased in and just take over class 91 diagrams without affecting the new timetable (probably during 2027).

Later on once 91s are gone, 897s could switch to final destinations that are off the wires, using battery, or generator set (although maybe these are specified with much lower power more for trundling along slower secondary lines than high speed dashes on the juice)

 

[tfw756rider]

What will be hilarious, is if you've spent all this time hoping your IC225 isn't a seven car, and then it isn't - because it's an Azuma instead Then the 7-225 won't look so bad, will it?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2025 ==

The announcement of the ten 10coach CAF trains was just over 2 years ago (9th November 2023).

I guess they can be phased in and just take over class 91 diagrams without affecting the new timetable (probably during 2027).

Probably during 2029 or maybe 2028 you mean.

 

[GoneSouth]

I shall certainly miss them when they’re gone. Grew up travelling the east coast for work and pleasure and they helped me make some great memories with friends and always felt like an adventure when I was young. Now it just feels like a chore and is certainly more stressful and uncomfortable.