Cross-Country Catering and Poor PR

[iainbhx]

Catering on the 170’s is outsourced to RailGourmet as I understand it and XC are taking on a “handful” of the caterers on those services and taking them in-house to work Voyagers. But most of them sadly will not cross over. Catering as a whole across the industry is a loss-leader when taken in isolation but adds value to the overall offering as a whole. I won’t comment my personal opinion on this however as a staff member….

It is not outsourced to RailGourmet, it is outsourced to a smaller firm who employed staff on minimum wage. My other half used to work for them for a few years. They have always been unprofitable for XC. There was virtually no training and they did not get staff travel perks nor were they part of the XC pension scheme or on the same conditions as XC Voyager staff.

 

[ValentaFan1974]

Apologies - I thought it was RG. We aren’t really told what goes on with the 170 crew etc.

 

[AlterEgo]

That does not sound like the attitude of a business eager for pleasing its customers and growing its income.

You're talking about CrossCountry Trains here, so that would be correct.

 

[iainbhx]

Apologies - I thought it was RG. We aren’t really told what goes on with the 170 crew etc.

I also suspect very few will cross over, only a small number have over the years, there's always been somewhat of a block, I understand. It was somewhat of a toxic working environment as well and my other half is much happier now as cabin crew with a leading holiday airline who he's been with for nearly 6 years now.

 

[Mogz]

I think the reasoning is that the trolly doesn’t take enough to cover the wages of the catering worker on those routes.

Plus there was a time when stations were often devoid of any catering whereas nowadays most mainline stations have a cafe at least.

Not much use when you’re on a very long journey and want a nice hot coffee halfway through, mind, but with the country and the industry skint, we can’t expect 1950s levels of service (sadly).

 

[coach fan]

That does not sound like the attitude of a business eager for pleasing its customers and growing its income.

Well when you’re subsidised by the jolly old tax payer, I don’t think that is the top of their priorities?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I’ll never forget on a journey from Cardiff paying about £6 for a Red Bull each for my ex partner and I. Scandulously priced. (Mind you, I don’t drink energy drinks anymore )

 

[dk1]

I’ll never forget on a journey from Cardiff paying about £6 for a Red Bull each for my ex partner and I. Scandulously priced. (Mind you, I don’t drink energy drinks anymore )

That is a ridiculous price for an energy drink. Can’t say I’ve ever had or wanted to try one. They smell like bubble gum. When somebody one asked for a vodka red bull I replied “i asked you if you wanted a drink not two”

 

[GoneSouth]

That is a ridiculous price for an energy drink. Can’t say I’ve ever had or wanted to try one. They smell like bubble gum. When somebody one asked for a vodka red bull I replied “i asked you if you wanted a drink not two”

Yes it smells absolutely disgusting which is enough to put me off trying to drink it.

As for the prices on trains, XC aren’t too bad on the voyagers but I’ve no idea if that’s different from the 170s. You are paying for convenience which is fair enough. They do have some good sandwich deals at the end of the day sometimes.

They’re so unreliable. If you have a double Voyage you might be lucky in the front set but not in the back (just as likely to be unlucky in both to be honest). Then there’s the issue alluded to above which is ‘I’m not going to take the trolley down the train because I might get stuck when it fills up, then there’s the small number of staff who genuinely can’t be bothered moving (many really good ones however who are friendly and chatty).

In summary, it’s like everything XC do it’s run badly, no effort, no care and no profit.

I want to buy food and drink on the train but if I don’t know it’s going to be there I don’t want to take the risk of being without for a 5+ hour journey so I have to take my own. I regret this very much as it’s the livelihoods of individuals working the trolleys we’re talking about, but when dealing with a company as poorly run as XC what else can you do.

 

[dk1]

Yes it smells absolutely disgusting which is enough to put me off trying to drink it.

As for the prices on trains, XC aren’t too bad on the voyagers but I’ve no idea if that’s different from the 170s. You are paying for convenience which is fair enough. They do have some good sandwich deals at the end of the day sometimes.

They’re so unreliable. If you have a double Voyage you might be lucky in the front set but not in the back (just as likely to be unlucky in both to be honest). Then there’s the issue alluded to above which is ‘I’m not going to take the trolley down the train because I might get stuck when it fills up, then there’s the small number of staff who genuinely can’t be bothered moving (many really good ones however who are friendly and chatty).

In summary, it’s like everything XC do it’s run badly, no effort, no care and no profit.

I want to buy food and drink on the train but if I don’t know it’s going to be there I don’t want to take the risk of being without for a 5+ hour journey so I have to take my own. I regret this very much as it’s the livelihoods of individuals working the trolleys we’re talking about, but when dealing with a company as poorly run as XC what else can you do.

I have to agree with the meal deal. One of the nicest Chicken & Bacon sandwiches I’ve ever had was a XC Voyager. Only downside is the length of time it takes to get through on busy services. I once had been onboard from St.Erth, the trolley boarded at Plymouth & finally served us as we passed through Bridgewater such was the pent up demand for refreshments.

 

[capital12]

That does not sound like the attitude of a business eager for pleasing its customers and growing its income.

Agreed. I find that the railway on the whole has a like it or lump attitude - I choose the latter and mostly fly now!

 

[voyagerdude220]

Only downside is the length of time it takes to get through on busy services.

I wonder if TOCs find much difference in the amounts of money which either a trolley or a static buffet make for them.

Personally I've always preferred a static buffet because I know where abouts on the train it is and I can grab a hot snack e.g. a Bacon Roll without the staff having to disappear to their microwave and heat it up for me.

I guess on say a busy Voyager if the trolley member of staff had a few requests for hot food they'd have to take payment, then return to their microwave and go back to the customer with their food, delaying them from going through the train. (But the flip side to a static Shop on a Voyager would be the crowd of people in coach D although of course Voyagers aren't rarely overcrowded)

 

[dk1]

I wonder if TOCs find much difference in the amounts of money which either a trolley or a static buffet make for them.

Personally I've always preferred a static buffet because I know where abouts on the train it is and I can grab a hot snack e.g. a Bacon Roll without the staff having to disappear to their microwave and heat it up for me.

I guess on say a busy Voyager if the trolley member of staff had a few requests for hot food they'd have to take payment, then return to their microwave and go back to the customer with their food, delaying them from going through the train. (But the flip side to a static Shop on a Voyager would be the crowd of people in coach D although of course Voyagers aren't rarely overcrowded)

Yes it’s a difficult one but I do think the trolley will often take more. That’s why when only a single host is provided at my TOC they temporarily close the buffet to do a sweep with the trolley to maximise revenue.

 

[185]

This illustrates the viability challenge for on-train catering. A round trip from Norwich to Stansted is 4 hours. Staff costs for the trolley person will be minimum £25ph once you include employer NI, pension contributions, training, paid breaks, holiday pay, other benefits etc. So £100 may, just about, cover the staff costs. But that’s before you buy any of the stock you’re selling, and buying/hiring and maintaining the trolleys etc.

We should also note the fares set by XC seem substantially higher than on other operators - surely those fares should be brought down to match the mile per mile average fares of local and regional TOCs. Those higher fares should either be used to provide a minimum standard of catering on board... or cut.

Personally, given the shockingly bad state of XC, I wouldn't be bothered if the Aberdeen - Penzance rolled up with Northern painted on the side.

 

[ValentaFan1974]

Some journeys are priced higher to coerce passengers to travel on earlier/later services where it’s known to have capacity issues.

 

[dk1]

We should also note the fares set by XC seem substantially higher than on other operators - surely those fares should be brought down to match the mile per mile average fares of local and regional TOCs. Those higher fares should either be used to provide a minimum standard of catering on board... or cut.

Bringing fares down would possibly encourage more to travel on already busy and overcrowded services thus making the situation worse.

 

[liamf656]

We should also note the fares set by XC seem substantially higher than on other operators - surely those fares should be brought down to match the mile per mile average fares of local and regional TOCs. Those higher fares should either be used to provide a minimum standard of catering on board... or cut.

As said by others Crosscountry services are already extremely busy, lowering fares would only work if they had more rolling stock, but that's for another thread

 

[Snow1964]

Very similar types of route - but nobody would have ever seriously suggested Portsmouth to Cardiff was an ‘intercity’ route, and I just don’t see Cardiff to Nottingham as being intercity either.

But that's more the way the railway chooses to operate it, relegating it to shortish trains, inconsistent quality, and few facilities. With badly timed connections at most of its key interchanges.

Cardiff-Portsmouth actually serves 7 cities, which is lot more than some intercity type services.

Depending on where you define boundaries (actual city boundary, or connurbation) it serves about 1.5 - 2.3m people. Considerably bigger than services serving places like Doncaster, Grantham, Preston etc which under your definition shouldn't deserve intercity style services either.

 

[Mogz]

As an almost daily XC user who utilises the service (and other TOCs) to get to various places around the UK for work purposes, it would be easy to be nonchalant about the poor service if it were not for the following:

- The higher standard of service from other long distance TOCs in the UK.

- The higher standard of service that used to be available on XC routes before the Voyagers came in.

- The considerably higher standard of service available on comparable long distance routes in continental Europe.

- The higher standards of passenger accommodation that are possible with the same type of rolling stock (eg Coach D on the ex- Avanti stock, and the Class 222s operated by EMR).

Whilst it would be nice to have things like restaurant cars and compartments like they have on the continent, and used to have in the UK, a few extra carriages, better leg room and a buffet shouldn’t be too much to ask when other long distance TOCs are able to offer just that.

But as I say, if the country and the industry are skint, XC is hardly going to be a priority…

 

[jon81uk]

They really should just put vending machines on trains already!

Wasn't Virgin Trains going to do this 30 years ago? They certainly had mock-up visuals of trains with Virgin Cola machines in every vestibule.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

Wasn't Virgin Trains going to do this 30 years ago? They certainly had mock-up visuals of trains with Virgin Cola machines in every vestibule.

Slightly(?) off topic, but Virgin Cola was so nice. M&S sold a somewhat similar one at one point, but I've never found a cola I liked as much as Virgin Cola.

Carry on!

 

[David Bullock]

As an almost daily XC user who utilises the service (and other TOCs) to get to various places around the UK for work purposes, it would be easy to be nonchalant about the poor service if it were not for the following:

- The higher standard of service from other long distance TOCs in the UK.

- The higher standard of service that used to be available on XC routes before the Voyagers came in.

- The considerably higher standard of service available on comparable long distance routes in continental Europe.

- The higher standards of passenger accommodation that are possible with the same type of rolling stock (eg Coach D on the ex- Avanti stock, and the Class 222s operated by EMR).

Whilst it would be nice to have things like restaurant cars and compartments like they have on the continent, and used to have in the UK, a few extra carriages, better leg room and a buffet shouldn’t be too much to ask when other long distance TOCs are able to offer just that.

But as I say, if the country and the industry are skint, XC is hardly going to be a priority…

I think there are a couple of things that have lead to this

Firstly XC don’t serve London so MPs don’t kick up a fuss when they have a rubbish journey, because they don’t travel to anywhere other than London.

Secondly, there’s no real reason for them to make the journey more comfortable or enjoyable. The trains are full and until DfT authorises a new fleet (which I believe is an ambition for the early 2030s) it’ll just be a case of higher prices and a worse experience to manage demand off XC.

TPE is an operator with a similar mix of journey lengths to XC regional stuff but they have a much more comprehensive (and crucially much more consistent) catering offer. But they have trains that are closer to the right size and they’re getting even more trains soon, and there’s a bit of an incentive to get people off the M62.

 

[Parallel]

I think there are a couple of things that have lead to this

Firstly XC don’t serve London so MPs don’t kick up a fuss when they have a rubbish journey, because they don’t travel to anywhere other than London.

Secondly, there’s no real reason for them to make the journey more comfortable or enjoyable. The trains are full and until DfT authorises a new fleet (which I believe is an ambition for the early 2030s) it’ll just be a case of higher prices and a worse experience to manage demand off XC.

TPE is an operator with a similar mix of journey lengths to XC regional stuff but they have a much more comprehensive (and crucially much more consistent) catering offer. But they have trains that are closer to the right size and they’re getting even more trains soon, and there’s a bit of an incentive to get people off the M62.

This makes it all the more baffling that TPE have had so much more investment in the past few years when XC have had so little. I think it’s partly the London thing as you mention, but part of it is that XC don’t ‘belong’ to any region, so local authorities etc don’t have a vested interest. Yes, XC centres around Birmingham but West Midlands Trains is really the ‘local’ operator there and they’ve had/are having a lot of investment…

Really you would need collaboration from multiple regions to drive forward improvements.

It’s a shame really because if you’re travelling between regions, not via London, there is a high chance you’ll be taking a XC service. The whole operation just really needs some more investment. The routes are clearly popular. The last time I used them for long distance, their train was full and standing between Dundee and Sheffield.

 

[185]

This makes it all the more baffling that TPE have had so much more investment in the past few years when XC have had so little.

Even with that investment, I've observed a disappointing figure showing (minus their stopper service & outside of coverage hours) catering coverage is as low as 58%. Taking into account coupled units, that drops to around 44%

That contrasts with 2007, it was briefly touching 97%.

 

[GoneSouth]

Even with that investment, I've observed a disappointing figure showing (minus their stopper service & outside of coverage hours) catering coverage is as low as 58%. Taking into account coupled units, that drops to around 44%

That contrasts with 2007, it was briefly touching 97%.

And the significance of those dates and numbers is the decline since Arriva took control of the franchise.

Virgin weren’t perfect but if only we could get them back today.

 

[Tetchytyke]

And the significance of those dates and numbers is the decline since Arriva took control of the franchise.

I think @185 was referring to TPE's catering coverage, not XC's.

With XC the main issue stems from the decision to rip out the shop and replace it with a trolley. I still don't quite understand the thinking behind it. Yes, where the shop was is now a lovely big luggage rack but you're not going to leave your luggage there unless you have a burning desire to have it nicked. Given the overcrowding on XC services, the trolley often can't make its way through the train. And even if it can, unless you're going a very long way you may well not see it. It was not uncommon for me to board in Leeds and not see the trolley until well after Darlington.

Even with that investment, I've observed a disappointing figure showing (minus their stopper service & outside of coverage hours) catering coverage is as low as 58%.

I don't doubt the statistic (and I presume you mean TPE not XC), but where did you find it? And does that refer to the overall coverage in theory (in which case the coverage will be lower- no catering east of Sheffield, between Leeds-Hull or between York-Redcar) or the actual provision over a period?

TPE, in my experience, have the same issue with catering from a trolley as XC do. One trolley for a 5-car 802 means that you often won't see it between Leeds and Manchester. It's not so bad now there's a first class host more often, but it wasn't uncommon travelling between Newcastle and Liverpool to not have any first class service at all between Leeds and Manchester. They'd do a run through first class after York then take the standard class trolley out, never to be seen again.