Children who look older than 15

[ess]

If a 15 year old is traveling on a Child ticket and a ticket check takes place, if the child looks older than 15, what's supposed to happen? Can they be reported for looking older than 15? What happens if they don't have proof with them?

 

[trainophile]

I thought child tickets were valid up to age 16?

 

[Vexed]

I thought child tickets were valid up to age 16?

Until they turn 16, exclusive. Then they can get a 16-17 Saver to keep half price fares from their 16th birthday which (if renewed) will expire the day before their 18th birthday.

So someone could be 15 but look 17 and have a valid ticket. I think this is what the OP is getting at?

 

[ess]

Basically if a 15 year old child is legitimately travelling on a Child ticket but the ticket checker doesn’t believe they’re only 15, what can and/or what should happen if they have no ID?

 

[Krokodil]

Usually they'll be asked how old they are - plenty of sixteen year olds get caught out saying "six-fifteen". Inspectors might ask their date of birth. If the ticket was bought online, they can always flag it for the back office to check later. If they really wanted to, they could ask BTP to intervene, but this isn't common.

Some are daft enough to mention to their friend that the reason that they only asked for a single is that they have a driving lesson later - not the brightest thing to say while the guard is still in earshot. Others have their provisional licence tucked into their phone case. Showing a child's ticket while drinking booze is also not very clever.

 

[py_megapixel]

I am more than willing to be corrected, but as far as I know there is no requirement at all for a child to carry proof of age on their journey, except for certain PTE tickets, where the conditions dictate that they are only valid with a card issued by the PTE that serves as proof of age.

Of course, a suspicious ticket inspector might still report a child for prosecution, so in practice it might be necessary to provide the TOC with some proof of age in retrospect if this happened. (I would hope most TOCs would drop an intended prosecution in the face of such proof; otherwise they would come out of their day in court looking very silly...)

 

[mathstrains19]

Others have their provisional licence tucked into their phone case.

There are 3 months where a child could be using a child ticket and have a provisional licence, although that would obviously be easy to prove with said licence.

 

[Marvelik]

Back when I was 15 I was frequently questioned by the conductors on my local line when trying to purchase a child ticket and asked to state my date of birth and age (the station of origin did not have ticket purchasing facilities so I legally bought them on the train).

One of them must’ve flagged my ticket or something because I recall getting pulled aside when trying to exit at Temple Meads and being told that this ticket purchase would be investigated and I could be prosecuted, and I got the impression they were trying to intimidate me into what would’ve been a false confession about lying about my age. I think the situation was resolved when I showed the school app on my phone (I attended a school which broke up for half term slightly earlier than other schools so my travel must’ve aroused suspicion as I was travelling outside ”normal” school holiday times).

They seemed pretty content after I showed them the school term times on the app and added a written endorsement on the back of my paper ticket to prevent me from getting stopped again. I was also advised to carry a photo of my passport on my phone so I could avoid such lengthy conversations in the future.

I have also heard of people of a similar age getting detained until their parents arrived with a form of ID, though I do take such accounts with a pinch of salt as from what I’ve read on here I‘m not sure if that would be legal.

 

[yorkie]

This is a difficult one.

In addition to suggestions posted above, they could be asked "when did you turn 17"? or ask for their date of birth (perhaps asking for the year first and then ask for the date/month, to make it harder to make it up)

There will always be outliers either way; I could think of some 15-year-olds who aren't quite 16 yet who look as if they are easily 18+, but equally I've known adults as old as 19 be sold child tickets automatically by rail staff (without the passenger asking for a child ticket).

Back when I did a lot of football away games, it was very common for football fans aged 16/17 to be "15" for the purpose of travelling by train to the match, but then be "18" in the pub, and if they weren't the ones doing the buying, they would nearly always get away with it, without any sign of anyone being suspicious.

I thought child tickets were valid up to age 16?

A 16-year-old does not qualify for a child ticket.

However, in practice, it is absolutely commonplace for 16-year-olds to use child tickets, especially if they are still in Year 11.

 

[trainophile]

My apologies for earlier reply, I totally missed the point.

I've been on a train when a guard, on being shown a child ticket (two young lasses with heavy make-up on), asked why they weren't at school. I didn't hear the reply but it seemed to satisfy him. As someone explains above, there could be many reasons why they're not in school so it's no real help. I suspect youngsters who are regular users of child tickets despite being past their 16th birthday have a fake date of birth memorised that they can instantly reply with if asked. Also what staff member is going to risk accusations of causing upset to a minor? Easier just to believe them and move on.

 

[Oscar M]

My understanding is that there isn't any requirement for under 16s to carry ID if using the normal child discount on National Rail. As a data point, when I was 15 (going back a few years) I travelled on dozens upon dozens of trains across the country and was asked for my ID only once.

This page says you can get a child rate photocard for use as proof of age. It's been several years since I last got one myself, but I remember it was marked with an expiry date, that being the day before my 16th.

That makes me wonder...have there been any cases over in Disputes & Prosecutions where someone has been 'penalised' for using a child ticket despite genuinely being under 16? Would be a good read.

 

[fandroid]

I was sat on a North Downs Line train in front of a young woman who had a wheelie case and had fairly obviously come from Gatwick Airport. She was challenged about her child ticket by an RPI and eventually admitted to being 21! She was quite small, but to be continuing to buy child tickets like that she was obviously setting herself up to eventually be caught. As it was I can imagine GWR demanded a fairly large sum of money from her.

 

[Gwr12345]

If a 15 year old is traveling on a Child ticket and a ticket check takes place, if the child looks older than 15, what's supposed to happen? Can they be reported for looking older than 15? What happens if they don't have proof with them?

If your nervous, you can get a free child rate photocard online https://photocards.lner.co.uk/
You need to upload a photo, but it arrives quickly, and don't have to print one off.
I'm sure there have been cases of 15 year olds being reported, but they're fairly easily sorted by showing proof of age.

 

[Kite159]

Wouldn't be such a big issue if the railway updated to include 16 & 17-year-olds as "children", and a benefit they could do away with the 16-17 saver railcard (remaining the 16-25 railcard as "18-25 railcard").

Youngsters playing the system by pretending to be under 16 will only come unstuck if they get caught by revenue and have a history on their account of buying child rate tickets.

 

[Watershed]

and a benefit they could do away with the 16-17 saver railcard (remaining the 16-25 railcard as "18-25 railcard").

The problem is that ScotRail and Caledonian Sleeper don't accept the 16-17 Saver, so you would be denying Scottish 16 & 17 year olds the ability to get discounts on CS or other TOCs that don't accept the Young Scot card.

 

[yorkie]

Wouldn't be such a big issue if the railway updated to include 16 & 17-year-olds as "children", and a benefit they could do away with the 16-17 saver railcard (remaining the 16-25 railcard as "18-25 railcard").

Youngsters playing the system by pretending to be under 16 will only come unstuck if they get caught by revenue and have a history on their account of buying child rate tickets.

That would never happen; it must be accepted that many 16/17 year olds currently get away with child fares, but if you extended it to under 18s, it would then be much easier for 18, 19, 20 year olds to claim to be 17.

However, any such proposal would need to be discussed in the Speculative Discussion section.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

I did a lot of my ‘bashing’ and train journeys during my teenage years. I was challenged a lot as I was quite tall at the time (I was 6ft 3 by the time I was 14!).

The solution was that I (after reading it on this forum over a decade ago!) got a child rate photo card from a ticket office. I simply presented a Passport (I think) and a passport-style photo and the card itself showed a date up until I was eligible for child-rate tickets.

It’s been some years since I’ve done any real travelling by train, so wouldn’t know if such a thing was possible now, but I’m sure it is!

 

[Krokodil]

Wouldn't be such a big issue if the railway updated to include 16 & 17-year-olds as "children", and a benefit they could do away with the 16-17 saver railcard (remaining the 16-25 railcard as "18-25 railcard").

That just moves the problem up a bit. The 16-17 Saver is useful because it bridges the gap between "half fare" and "third off with a railcard" with "legitimate half fare with a railcard". They can get the same discounts they got as a kid, but get used to having to prove eligiblity. This removes the motivation to lie about one's age.

 

[Oscar M]

That would never happen; it must be accepted that many 16/17 year olds currently get away with child fares, but if you extended it to under 18s, it would then be much easier for 18, 19, 20 year olds to claim to be 17.

Wouldn't surprise me if that was part of the reason they decided to introduce a Railcard instead of extending the age range for the child rate.

If a 16 or 17 year old travels on the child rate, they may well get away with it, but they're just paying the same fare they'd get with the 16/17 Saver*, so it could be argued the railway only loses £35 a year maximum*.

But then an 18 or 19 year old who wants to travel at 50% off is going to have a harder time as they effectively have two choices; use a discount where proof of eligibility is required (i.e. the Railcard itself) or try to pretend they're around 3/4 years younger than they actually are, as opposed to around 1/2 years.

(*yes, I know there are exceptions; first class, oyster and ScotRail to name a few).

That just moves the problem up a bit. The 16-17 Saver is useful because it bridges the gap between "half fare" and "third off with a railcard" with "legitimate half fare with a railcard". They can get the same discounts they got as a kid, but get used to having to prove eligiblity. This removes the motivation to lie about one's age.

And I was just about to hit post!

 

[Haywain]

There are 3 months where a child could be using a child ticket and have a provisional licence, although that would obviously be easy to prove with said licence.

When are those three months? I don't believe that anyone under 16 can obtain a provisional (driving?) licence.

 

[Ashley Hill]

If in doubt I’ll ask if they are under eighteen. Many will say they are 16/17 and will then be either warned or chinged up depending on their attitude. If they say they are 15, unless obviously not then I tend to sell them what they want.

 

[Watershed]

When are those three months? I don't believe that anyone under 16 can obtain a provisional (driving?) licence.

Yes, you can get your provisional from age 15 years and 9 months:

Get your first provisional driving licence for a car, motorbike, moped or other vehicle from DVLA online. To apply you must:

• be at least 15 years and 9 months old

It obviously functions as a form of ID but is really there to allow those who can get a licence from 16 (people with the enhanced rate of PIP mobility) to start learning.

 

[saismee]

One question I see RPIs ask around midday on school days is "Which school do you go to?" It catches a few out, unless they're skiving. If they name a college then they definitely aren't under 16.

One time I got asked for ID while in TOC uniform in a station shop while buying an energy drink. Either the cashier was having a sleepy day, or I could've gotten away with child tickets this whole time!

 

[dodecahedron67]

Speaking as a conductor, if I suspect someone's trying it on I just ask for a DOB - I'm not that concerned with being given a correct date, more can they recite it immediately or do they stutter/stumble. Most kids also realise the game's up and fold if you ask for a DOB and then question it if they stutter

 

[Andrew1395]

Do under 16 year olds have ID to confirm their date of birth? How many will have applied for a provisional driving license at 15 - <5%?

 

[yorkie]

Do under 16 year olds have ID to confirm their date of birth?

Generally speaking, no.

How many will have applied for a provisional driving license at 15 - <5%?

A miniscule percentage I suspect.

 

[sonic2009]

When I was 14/15 I was challenged several times as to my age as I looked over 16. We are talking over 20 years ago.

I went to my local station with my birth certificate and got a photo card that had my photo with the word child over it. So I could prove my age with this as it had been checked by a station ticket office.

 

[RyanOPlasty]

I may have taken advantage of looking younger than my age in the 1970s, when you were somewhat unfairly considered an adult by the railway at 14.

 

[Nottingham59]

When I was 14/15 I was challenged several times as to my age as I looked over 16. We are talking over 20 years ago.

I went to my local station with my birth certificate and got a photo card that had my photo with the word child over it. So I could prove my age with this as it had been checked by a station ticket office.

My son had this problem. He looked 18, when he was 15 and travelling all over to places like Crewe and Sheffield to video trains. Nottingham station wasn't able to / wouldn't issue a photocard, despite what it says on the National Rail website. So he carried a trimmed photocopy of his passport with him just to avoid any unpleasantness with RPIs.

 

[Haywain]

Yes, you can get your provisional from age 15 years and 9 months:


It obviously functions as a form of ID but is really there to allow those who can get a licence from 16 (people with the enhanced rate of PIP mobility) to start learning.

Well, you live and learn!