Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[stevenedin]

I don't know for certain, but their lack of repaint does seem to suggest they might not be part of a long term solution as they have (had?) the newer Solo that conceivably could have covered for repaints?

The thing is these would have been perfect for the 70 and 71 routes at Lothian Country.

 

[Busman757]

The thing is these would have been perfect for the 70 and 71 routes at Lothian Country.

The 70 yes. 71 no as it’s a lot busier than you might think.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

After buying Eve's are 191-193 owned by Lothian or on a lease/finance company agreement?

They’re on ECB legals and have been since they took control of the routes back in April. 191-192 are no longer in use in any case, with only 193 waiting to be released by I’m assuming another transferred Eclipse2.

In my own opinion I think it’s likely they will be sold after that, with Prentice an obvious buyer in my opinion. This would allow them to have a more streamlined fleet. However that’s just a suggestion rather than actual fact. Moffat & Williamson another obvious candidate for them to end up with.

Lothian have been slowly selling the Eve fleet off as time has gone on. If a large batch of new coaches arrived for Newbridge, then I think it’s likely all the existing Lothian Motorcoaches stock that hasn’t already moved, would head out to Dunbar.

 

[Lx008]

The 70 yes. 71 no as it’s a lot busier than you might think.

I still find it a little strange that no single decks have been cascaded to LCB, especially now that Lothian has an excess, to serve the 70 (71/72).

I guess the flexibility offered by an all-decker fleet is greater than the excess operating costs of the deckers

 

[Cesarcollie]

Really nice buses for someone buying them. I hope that they keep the Edinburgh voice saying "Warning exit doors closing" on the buses when being sold to their new homes. Would be nice to have a bit of Edinburgh (and London) in their new home).

They may be. But after running in Scotland their chassis will probably be somewhat corroded…..!

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

They may be. But after running in Scotland their chassis will probably be somewhat corroded…..!

Bit of a lazy theory this. Lothian’s fleet often carries on for several years after sale, usually far longer than stuff from elsewhere. Not unusual for stuff to be going 10-15 years later.

 

[Cesarcollie]

Bit of a lazy theory this. Lothian’s fleet often carries on for several years after sale, usually far longer than stuff from elsewhere. Not unusual for stuff to be going 10-15 years later.

Lothian vehicles are generally in good condition otherwise. But chassis corrosion from heavily salted roads is not a ‘lazy theory’. It’s true!

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Lothian vehicles are generally in good condition otherwise. But chassis corrosion from heavily salted roads is not a ‘lazy theory’. It’s true!

In the context of this thread and your original point it is. Lothian’s vehicles do last far longer than their counterparts and usually outlive most things from south of the border too.

 

[LothianBusesPh]

They’re on ECB legals and have been since they took control of the routes back in April. 191-192 are no longer in use in any case, with only 193 waiting to be released by I’m assuming another transferred Eclipse2.

That’s because 191 blew up on the 107 and is being repaired. 193 has been very unreliable as well.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

That’s because 191 blew up on the 107 and is being repaired. 193 has been very unreliable as well.

You’d think after this that would be it then. Can’t see a way back for them. Sell.

 

[Cesarcollie]

In the context of this thread and your original point it is. Lothian’s vehicles do last far longer than their counterparts and usually outlive most things from south of the border too.

Any statistical evidence of that?

 

[GusB]

Lothian vehicles are generally in good condition otherwise. But chassis corrosion from heavily salted roads is not a ‘lazy theory’. It’s true!

Yes, but is it really true that Scotland is more susceptible to this issue than any other part of the UK? When we get ice and heavy snow in lower-lying areas it's likely that much of the rest of the UK is similarly affected. It doesn't snow here all the time!

 

[Lx008]

With the replacement for the age-ing Airlink buses on the near horizon, do we think that ADL would try and certify the E500EV for the UK.

While not a perfect replacement as it’s a little smaller (12.8m vs 13.4m) , there really isn’t anything being built right now that could replace the 400XLB.

The only seeming alternative would be the MCV-D123 Bodied Volvo B8L, which ofc would still be a diesel vehicle and is also a 12.8m vehicle.

The only other electric tri-axle decker in existence is the Yutong U12DD, which would, like the E500EV, first need its Singapore spec to be UK approved and is ofc, like everything else mentioned also a 12.8m.

How much longer can the 400XLB go on without replacement or are we possible looking at the first ever mid-life overhaul for Airlink buses (I.e buses that will go back onto Airlink rather than into the rest of the fleet) as there simply isn’t anything to replace them.

 

[Cesarcollie]

Yes, but is it really true that Scotland is more susceptible to this issue than any other part of the UK? When we get ice and heavy snow in lower-lying areas it's likely that much of the rest of the UK is similarly affected. It doesn't snow here all the time!

Generally yes. Parts of north-east England suffer similarly- but as a generalisation, vehicles from Scotland tend to demonstrate worse corrosion. That’s not a failure of their maintenance systems. It’s the weather, and the road salt that accompanies it!

 

[GusB]

Generally yes. Parts of north-east England suffer similarly- but as a generalisation, vehicles from Scotland tend to demonstrate worse corrosion. That’s not a failure of their maintenance systems. It’s the weather, and the road salt that accompanies it!

I'll fire your own question back at you:

Any statistical evidence of that?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

How much longer can the 400XLB go on without replacement or are we possible looking at the first ever mid-life overhaul for Airlink buses (I.e buses that will go back onto Airlink rather than into the rest of the fleet) as there simply isn’t anything to replace them.

Reading between the lines of how vehicle movements should end up, I’d suggest a new batch looks highly likely within the next 6 months. MCV bodying B8L’s being the only real option. Though I’d suggest this would be Evoseti’s rather than D123’s as I don’t think that’s on the UK market and probably isn’t worth doing when the Evoseti is basically just a decker Evora, obviously a body that Lothian are already familiar with.

The evidence of this is the messy split of 351-365 and 381-389, 391-392 still being at Central while 366-380 are for Longstone - 380 should be moving to Longstone imminently to complete this. You would need new Airlink’s for the latter 11 of those 11 plates left at Central to end up at Marine. There’s no other realistic way of doing this. It’s also the only plausible way to remove all of the ex London’s from the city fleet. At the moment about a good 10 or so (likely more) should remain after the BZL’s are all in service. That’s not to say that the ones already removed (aside from the dual doors) may be stored pending a return in the future. Again though, this seems unlikely.

 

[mb88]

The 70 yes. 71 no as it’s a lot busier than you might think.

The 71 could easily cope with single decks even on the busiest journeys.

 

[Lx008]

Reading between the lines of how vehicle movements should end up, I’d suggest a new batch looks highly likely within the next 6 months. MCV bodying B8L’s being the only real option. Though I’d suggest this would be Evoseti’s rather than D123’s as I don’t think that’s on the UK market and probably isn’t worth doing when the Evoseti is basically just a decker Evora, obviously a body that Lothian are already familiar with.

The evidence of this is the messy split of 351-365 and 381-389, 391-392 still being at Central while 366-380 are for Longstone - 380 should be moving to Longstone imminently to complete this. You would need new Airlink’s for the latter 11 of those 11 plates left at Central to end up at Marine. There’s no other realistic way of doing this. It’s also the only plausible way to remove all of the ex London’s from the city fleet. At the moment about a good 10 or so (likely more) should remain after the BZL’s are all in service. That’s not to say that the ones already removed (aside from the dual doors) may be stored pending a return in the future. Again though, this seems

Given recent (un)satisfaction with ADL‘s integral products and the limitations of current electric buses I agree that a B8L base is the most likely, however, I was under the impression that new orders for the EvoSeti body family have been discontinued in favor of the D123 as it is essentially a non-electric BZL and therefore has parts-communality with the BZL D113, simplifying Production for MCV.

It would be very interesting to see if Yutong could bring a U12DD to the UK, but sadly UK tri-axles are a very small market that seems to essentially be Lothian only + a few opportunistic pick ups, therefore unlikely to warrant introduction of entirely new vehicles

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

However, I was under the impression that new orders for the EvoSeti body family have been discontinued in favor of the D123 as it is essentially a non-electric BZL and therefore has parts-communality with the BZL D113, simplifying Production for MCV.

If any order is to be delivered within the next 6 months, then I would still think it’s Evoseti’s. The D123 no doubt will come to the market soon and would make sense for Lothian, but I’m not sure the timings add up for this.

It had been reported back in August that a diesel order was being explored, possibly to a point that an order had been placed.

 

[Cesarcollie]

I'll fire your own question back at you:

Do I have a spreadsheet showing a number at the bottom? No. I’m just going on (rather too many) years of both buying and selling secondhand buses. My message to any potential buyer would be to carry out your own thorough inspection before parting with your money - and not just the pretty bits at eye level that are easy to see! It’s not for you or I to tell anyone to buy or not buy anything. Just exercise appropriate due diligence!

 

[Graeme Duncan]

Is there a possibility that 391-92 will be reallocated to Marine once 905-06 leave the fleet.

 

[Resuwen]

Generally yes. Parts of north-east England suffer similarly- but as a generalisation, vehicles from Scotland tend to demonstrate worse corrosion. That’s not a failure of their maintenance systems. It’s the weather, and the road salt that accompanies it!

The East of Scotland in particular Edinburgh and East Lothian tend to get far less problems with icy roads than much of the North East of England

 

[CSB0241]

Do Lothian not run additional services to cope with all the school kids coming out in the evening? I had assumed they did, but I've been on a 24 to Royal Infirmary which filled to capacity around the Meadows and left people behind all the way through Marchmont. If this is an issue daily I'm surprised there isn't an extra few buses added.

The 38 definitely gets some in the afternoon for George Watsons ERI-bound, though I’d say that’s more so a byproduct of the extra peak journeys for ERI & Kings Buildings that just happens to kill two birds with one stone.

 

[EMU303]

The East of Scotland in particular Edinburgh and East Lothian tend to get far less problems with icy roads than much of the North East of England

Indeed.. average rainfall in Edinburgh is a third less than Glasgow, and various western towns/cities in England and Wales have more rain than the east of Scotland

 

[Resuwen]

Is there a problem with 291? Not tracked since early October

 

[ScotRail158725]

just seen 798 in service, didnt know more than 4 were in service at marine

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

just seen 798 in service, didnt know more than 4 were in service at marine

Believe it or not, it’s 12. As a consequence 12 of Marine’s ex London’s are now in reserve. 1005-1022 are planned to be removed, with only 1005, 1007, 1010, 1011, 1015 and 1020 left in service.

1023-1028, 1030-1032 will stay for now. These should be replaced by 381-389 at a time whenever new Airlink’s are delivered. 391-392 departing Central in theory should release 464 and 496 at the same time.

770 finally entered service this morning, but its debut didn’t last long.

 

[stevenedin]

Believe it or not, it’s 12. As a consequence 12 of Marine’s ex London’s are now in reserve. 1005-1022 are planned to be removed, with only 1005, 1007, 1010, 1011, 1015 and 1020 left in service.

1023-1028, 1030-1032 will stay for now. These should be replaced by 381-389 at a time whenever new Airlink’s are delivered. 391-392 departing Central in theory should release 464 and 496 at the same time.

770 finally entered service this morning, but its debut didn’t last long.

It's such a shame that these buses are leaving the fleet. It would be nice if some were transferred to Lothian Country to replace 936-939 and some to Longstone to replace 933 and 935

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

It's such a shame that these buses are leaving the fleet. It would be nice if some were transferred to Lothian Country to replace 936-939 and some to Longstone to replace 933 and 935

933 has been replaced already. 935 will be replaced by 380 which still hasn’t moved, presumably down to the issues with 770. Then 777 and 780 will replace 927 and 928 when they arrive, whenever that may be.

I wouldn’t rule out the possibility of ex London’s heading west. Take 1030-1032 for example, they could easily replace 937-939. 464 could replace 936.

At ECB, I am trying to work out whether or not 506 has theoretically indirectly replaced 193. You could have the scenario where if 496 replaced 942 and then 1023-1028 could replace 945-950. The latter are ideal for schools and the 139.

There’s one big problem with this idea. Longevity. Is it really worth switching these all about for a couple of years? These are vehicles that are virtually identical in age, but the mileage on the 10 plates is the highest in the fleet now. What I would say is I am convinced 464 for 936 will happen as it’ll be sole 09 plate left in a few weeks time once the last of resulting moves from BZL’s come into place. I can’t see why they’d want a Lone Ranger in the fleet.

All a bit of logic and guesswork put together, but everything adds up at the moment. The last part of removing the remaining 10 plates is one I have yet to come up with a logical conclusion for.

905-906 were brought back most recently as extras, presumably to allow the Zoo Wraps to have their interiors retrimmed. I would imagine once that’s done, those will go as well.

 

[ScotRail158725]

933 has been replaced already.

Ive just been on 933?

935 will be replaced by 380 which still hasn’t moved, presumably down to the issues with 770. Then 777 and 780 will replace 927 and 928 when they arrive, whenever that may be.

927 & 928 being withdrawn?

I wouldn’t rule out the possibility of ex London’s heading west. Take 1030-1032 for example, they could easily replace 937-939. 464 could replace 936.

At ECB, I am trying to work out whether or not 506 has theoretically indirectly replaced 193. You could have the scenario where if 496 replaced 942 and then 1023-1028 could replace 945-950. The latter are ideal for schools and the 139.

Im surprised the Ex Londons arent outlasting the native 11 plates because of their mid life refurb. Suppose nothing was touched underneath though