If I have this Anytime Return ticket (routed via Hereford) https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=RUN&dest=TRO&rte=822&tkt=SOR am I entitled when making the return journey to request a change of route excess to this Off peak return ticket (not via london) https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=RUN&dest=TRO&rte=700&tkt=SVR. If so is the price payable half the difference as only being made on one leg? Does the different ticket type affect this? And do the new NRCoT affect whether this can be requested on the train? Even if the ticket office is shut at time of departure? Many thanks.
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Change of route excess - Runcorn to Trowbridge
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redreni
Established Member
Good questions.
There was a deliberate policy decision years ago that it shouldn't be possible to excess either the outward or the return portion of a return ticket from off-peak to Anytime (using the terminology we have now, rather than then) for half the difference in fares. Instead, the full difference should be charged. But, I think you may be right that if you're doing a change of route excess, there's nothing in the internal guidance to suggest you can't at the same time change between Anytime/off-peak/super off-peak and still benefit from being able to pay half the difference.
As for what happens if you can't find somebody to sell you the excess, that's far from clear. There's no longer a right to a change of route excess set out in the NRCoT.
I'm looking at the definition of "Ticket" in Annex B NRCoT. It neither expressly includes nor excludes the notion that, with respect to your intended journey, you may require two or more tickets (though that is expressly permitted elsewhere). An excess is, of course, not valid by itself, but that is also true of some other tickets (e.g. Boundary Zone tickets). That doesn't mean it's not a ticket.
So I would say you could argue, if you held a ticket that wasn't valid for the route you wanted to take, that while you are now required to get a change of route excess before commencing travel (last paragraph of Condition 9.5), you are then in a position where you require a particular ticket (namely an excess) in order to fulfil the requirement at 6.1 to hold a valid ticket, before you board, and the exceptions at 6.1.1 apply.
There was a deliberate policy decision years ago that it shouldn't be possible to excess either the outward or the return portion of a return ticket from off-peak to Anytime (using the terminology we have now, rather than then) for half the difference in fares. Instead, the full difference should be charged. But, I think you may be right that if you're doing a change of route excess, there's nothing in the internal guidance to suggest you can't at the same time change between Anytime/off-peak/super off-peak and still benefit from being able to pay half the difference.
As for what happens if you can't find somebody to sell you the excess, that's far from clear. There's no longer a right to a change of route excess set out in the NRCoT.
I'm looking at the definition of "Ticket" in Annex B NRCoT. It neither expressly includes nor excludes the notion that, with respect to your intended journey, you may require two or more tickets (though that is expressly permitted elsewhere). An excess is, of course, not valid by itself, but that is also true of some other tickets (e.g. Boundary Zone tickets). That doesn't mean it's not a ticket.
So I would say you could argue, if you held a ticket that wasn't valid for the route you wanted to take, that while you are now required to get a change of route excess before commencing travel (last paragraph of Condition 9.5), you are then in a position where you require a particular ticket (namely an excess) in order to fulfil the requirement at 6.1 to hold a valid ticket, before you board, and the exceptions at 6.1.1 apply.
If you wish to travel on a route that is permitted by the "Not via London" fare that is not via Hereford, the excess is calculated as half the difference between the fare paid and the appropriate fare.
The appropriate fare is the Off Peak Return, providing it's valid for the journey you are making.
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This is a different type of excess fare.
You are describing a situation where a passenger is not changing their route, and instead choosing to travel at a time when their Off Peak fare isn't valid; this is indeed the full difference.
The NRCoT now no longer enshrines the right to any change of route excess, anywhere. All reference to them have been deleted.
If you do obtain one, it must be done before boarding unless there was no opportunity to buy a ticket before boarding. Note that the removal of change of route excesses "as a thing" mean that it is arguable that legally you must just buy a separate, valid ticket from a TVM if the TVM is operational and the ticket office is closed.
Appreciate the input. The outcome I fear is that an interpretation will be made that the "appropriate fare" for a change of route excess in this instance would be the "not via london" Anytime fare, which would be painful as this anytime fare is ~£175 more! In that instance I suppose the best course of action would be to change tack and request an excess for a change of ticket type (which although not halved would be much cheaper than the above worst case scenario). Would be good to know how hard I can dig my heels in on what the correct course of action should be when this inevitably turns into a friendly discussion about Appendix B or whatever 
Any views on whether I need to sort before boarding (I would hope not as the ticket office will be shut at time of travel).
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Any views on whether I need to sort before boarding (I would hope not as the ticket office will be shut at time of travel).
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I am not sure this is what you mean but it would be useful to clarify here for the record because your underlined statement implies that change of route excess is no longer allowed/available at all? I did not think that is the case, although if as you say all references have been deleted then....:/ ???
Doesn't mean it isn't *allowed* it just means you have no contractual right to ask for one. They do still exist (a friend of a friend obtained one this morning) but you've no leg to stand on if you want to insist on one from a clerk who won't do it.
Ah. I see, and this applies to any attempt at changes before boarding too? In which case the new NRCoT rules (the dodgy removal of bullet 13.2?) that have come into effect this week (from 23rd November) really are a very significant downgrade in ticket flexibility and availability for paying customers. Will be interested in yorkie and other experts view on this, and the finality of this. The vague hope that someone kind might be able to make the change / excess if I am lucky is not a great prospect....
redreni
Established Member
Not "a ticket". "The ticket you require". See 6.1.1.
I'm not confident that the phrase "the ticket you require" can include an excess fare, I'm just saying it is arguable that it can, if you already hold a ticket that needs a change of route excess to make it valid for your intended journey.
Given the stakes, it would be better if this were clearer.
But it is at least possible that the RDG's intention in making these changes was to stop people walking past opportunities to pay an excess fare for a change of route and only paying if challenged, rather than to make criminals of people who try to pay an excess fare before boarding but can't.
EDIT: Slightly pedantically, it's also not the case that all reference to change of route excesses has been removed. The last paragraph of Condition 9.5 relates to cases where the ticket held is invalid in circumstances other than those set out in 9.5.1 (off-peak or super off-peak time restrictions) or 9.5.2 (break of journey restrictions). That basically just leaves TOC or route restrictions. And it does refer to the possibility to "exchange or excess" the invalid ticket held for one that is valid for the service you wish to use. That can only really be a reference to a change of route excess. Okay, it doesn't set out a clear entitlement to such an excess, but it doesn't remove all reference to it either. You could reasonably ask a ticket office clerk who tried to tell you there was no such thing as a change of route excess, why the NRCoT refers to excessing a ticket under that condition?
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NormalPerson7
Member
Just to add to this, the new NRCoT came into force on Sunday 23 November. If the tickets were purchased before that date, the contract will have been formed under the old NRCoT and as such the right to a change of route excess should remain.
This is optimistically assuming the ticket office clerk knows what the NRCoT is...
redreni
Established Member
Well, it'd be a reasonable question to ask them whether they happen to know the answer or not.
It would be a mistake, in my view, if we were to lower our expectations of TOC staff training to match our worst - or even our average - experiences. That's exactly what leads to the cycle of fewer people asking for excesses (because it's easier to just buy the most flexible ticket to begin with even if that means overpaying), and TOCs using low sales to dismiss customers wanting an excess as an "edge case" that doesn't justify them doing anything about how shockingly difficult it is to buy one.
You are of course correct. Although I do think it would be good to ensure anyone reading this thread doesn't get the wrong idea about the practicalities. Although this may be due to how bad my experiences with ticket office staff in my area have been.
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