Experiences of service recovery (or lack of) on GTR Great Northern

[Robski]

Firstly, being placed into P1 at Welwyn is an attempt by the signaller to get the train "out of the way", presumably knowing there was going to need to be an unbooked crew relief at Welwyn.

Well yeah, I wasn't expecting them to do a crew relief on the down fast! However clearly the issue was only identified after the train left Finsbury Park, as they would have otherwise kept it on the slows to Welwyn. Someone somewhere messed up, quite spectacularly. Whether it's the controller who forgot to tell a driver something, or a driver not being able to recognise when a platform alteration has occurred we will likely never know.

Next "left behind in London" is probably somewhat paraphrased - it is likely the driver was displaced following the fatality so wasn't where they needed to be and had to "pass" up to Welwyn.

Only to some extent, it's impossible to quote because (as already mentioned) the PA was cutting out. However I could get enough information from other sources and enough key words from the garbled PA to reliably come to that conclusion.

What is more likely is that someone made an error and didn't realise it until the train was already moving. The rational course of action would have been to hold the train at Finsbury Park and wait for a driver who is actually able to drive the train according to it's booked route. The delay would have been at most 10 minutes, as that is the time between 9J74's departure and 2C72's departure from FPK.

The only reason I can see for pulling the stops is a driver being out of hours because 9J74 is meant to terminate and go into the sidings which would normally just be absorbed. However 5J74 appears to be cancelled on RTT, so it is hard to tell what actually happened to the stock or whether the sidings were full for some reason (related to the incident, perhaps).

So it was for operational convenience. Which is sort of the whole point of my post - everything that happened was for the operational convenience of the operator that created the whole mess to begin with rather than the passengers.

5J74 did run. RTT isn't always correct.

 

[whoosh]

Yesterday's performance by Thameslink was quite amazing (in a bad way).

9J74 21:55 Horsham to Peterborough started from Three Bridges due to a fatality. Ran on time as far as Finsbury Park where things started getting weird as the train was diverted into P5 for no apparent reason. At Potters Bar it gets put on the down slow line, and eventually is parked up at Welwyn GC platform 1.

We’re then informed that the onward driver was left behind in London(!) and that we are awaiting their arrival on a following train (2C72 23:27 ex Kings Cross) - at least, that's what I think was said as the PA system was defective as usual.

9J74 is delayed by about 30 minutes as a result of this and just to rub it in even further the service controller decides to pull all the stops between Stevenage and Peterborough! We couldn’t hear the driver inform us of this wise decision by the grand coalition of the utterly deranged because of the PA problem which was reported but as usual nothing was done about it.

Train leaves Stevenage empty after some passengers take it upon themselves (myself included) to inform other passengers about the amended calling pattern, left to stand in the cold for the next delayed Peterborough train 45 minutes behind (on top of the 30 minute delay!) - had they stayed on, they would have been stranded in Peterborough. By my estimates there were around 100 to 150 passengers waiting for the next train, plus quite a few who decided to use a taxi to get to their destination.

I have a lot of words to describe the actions taken by Thameslink that night. None of them are nice.

9J74 is supposed to have a Cambridge driver from Three Bridges to Stevenage, then a Peterbrough driver from there on.
There was obviously some deviation from the booked diagrams due to the aforementioned incident at Three Bridges, for a crew change to be done ad-hoc at Welwyn.

 

[Horizon22]

Well yeah, I wasn't expecting them to do a crew relief on the down fast! However clearly the issue was only identified after the train left Finsbury Park, as they would have otherwise kept it on the slows to Welwyn. Someone somewhere messed up, quite spectacularly. Whether it's the controller who forgot to tell a driver something, or a driver not being able to recognise when a platform alteration has occurred we will likely never know.

You cannot presume someone "messed up" - during a fatality the disruption is widespread and workload is intense. Crew may be all over the place due to diversions, terminating short, being held for 60+ minutes. It's very hard to be able to explain to someone what happens during these incidents within a control centre that doesn't know, but there are lots of people from within the railway who wouldn't be able to manage it.

What is more likely is that someone made an error and didn't realise it until the train was already moving. The rational course of action would have been to hold the train at Finsbury Park and wait for a driver who is actually able to drive the train according to it's booked route. The delay would have been at most 10 minutes, as that is the time between 9J74's departure and 2C72's departure from FPK.

You - and to be fair I - are making lots of assumptions here. It is very easy to review in hindsight what best options were to be done, less so when you have 30-45 seconds to make a decision, which may be one of many. It may have been presumed the booked driver was working the train, and then realised it was not. During significant incidents, it is near impossible to track every single decision perfectly.

So it was for operational convenience. Which is sort of the whole point of my post - everything that happened was for the operational convenience of the operator that created the whole mess to begin with rather than the passengers.

5J74 did run. RTT isn't always correct.

The operator didn't cause the fatality to happen, the root cause of the disruption.

I am aware RTT isn't always correct, hence why I said "it appears to be". Again it would not be usual to run a train fast that is ending up terminating and ECS anyway, so there must have been some extenuiating circumstances that neither you nor I are privy too. Although I can take an educated guess.

 

[Horizon22]

9J74 is supposed to have a Cambridge driver from Three Bridges to Stevenage, then a Peterbrough driver from there on.
There was obviously some deviation from the booked diagrams due to the aforementioned incident at Three Bridges, for a crew change to be done ad-hoc at Welwyn.

"Some" is probably putting it mildly! You would presume it was a Welwyn driver, doing a favour (seeing as 9J74 is not booked to stop there) or someone off-diagram working it through to get back.

Without going into the control room at TBROC, we can only speculate on who was told what when.

 

[bramling]

9J74 is supposed to have a Cambridge driver from Three Bridges to Stevenage, then a Peterbrough driver from there on.
There was obviously some deviation from the booked diagrams due to the aforementioned incident at Three Bridges, for a crew change to be done ad-hoc at Welwyn.

This is why GTR’s crewing seems to fall over easily. Their crew diagrams seem massively complex.

 

[Robski]

You cannot presume someone "messed up" - during a fatality the disruption is widespread and workload is intense. Crew may be all over the place due to diversions, terminating short, being held for 60+ minutes. It's very hard to be able to explain to someone what happens during these incidents within a control centre that doesn't know, but there are lots of people from within the railway who wouldn't be able to manage it.

The incident was cleared over an hour before the train left Finsbury Park. I am also fairly sure there is a separate GN controller (or TL north, I'm not too sure on that).

I am confident I can presume someone messed up. Particularly with the "lets throw everyone off at Stevenage" idea, that really went down well. I had reported the PA problem as well so they pulled the stops knowing passengers couldn't be informed.

The operator didn't cause the fatality to happen, the root cause of the disruption.

Did the fatality force the operator to chuck out all the passengers onto a cold platform in the middle of the night?

I'm not going to debate it any further. Thameslink behaved very poorly that night, they made a number of errors and no doubt it'll happen again.

 

[Bald Rick]

Someone somewhere messed up, quite spectacularly.

If you think this is a spectacular mess up, you need to get a job in control and see what is the art of the possible!

 

[Horizon22]

The incident was cleared over an hour before the train left Finsbury Park. I am also fairly sure there is a separate GN controller (or TL north, I'm not too sure on that).

I believe there is, doesn't stop there being multiple trains and crew to deal with, even if the incident has cleared. Residual disruption can last for hours after lines reopen.

I am confident I can presume someone messed up. Particularly with the "lets throw everyone off at Stevenage" idea, that really went down well. I had reported the PA problem as well so they pulled the stops knowing passengers couldn't be informed.

The PA problem aside - I've had this issue on 700s and I'm not uncertain it isn't user error... - as I've stated it wouldn't be done just for the fun of it, especially the individual circumstances of one of the last trains of the night. Whether anyone read your report minutes beforehand (and even then would have been able to do anything about it), I have no idea.

Did the fatality force the operator to chuck out all the passengers onto a cold platform in the middle of the night?

No but have you ever heard of secondary consequences or cause and effect? There's a lot of moving parts in any railway operation. As I stated, it would be rare to do a move considering the lateness, and it may be that the individual controller did 'drop the ball' here or given the same scenario 10 other times it wouldn't have been handled differently. But I was offering some insight on potentially why and I know it isn't fun to hear, especially when you are individually impacted, but there would be some context that we are not all privy to.

I'm not going to debate it any further. Thameslink behaved very poorly that night, they made a number of errors and no doubt it'll happen again.

Very well. I thought I would explain the rationale and realities of any given disruptive event, but you seem determined not to listen. Again, it's a shame you were personally impacted.

The benefit of a hindsight is a wonderful thing as is determining what you think without all of the facts to hand. But it is not the first time someone thinks an operator (and not just Thameslink or Great Northern) could do better and it won't be the last. So yes in any given disruption will passengers be negatively impacted? Undoubtedly.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

My friend just witnessed an 'interesting' service recovery technique - skipping Cambridge, the busiest stop by far

Realtime Trains | 1T49 1640 Kings Lynn to London Kings Cross | 16/10/2025

Real-time train running information for 1T49 1640 departure from Kings Lynn to London Kings Cross on 16/10/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Intercity_225]

My friend just witnessed an 'interesting' service recovery technique - skipping Cambridge, the busiest stop by far

Realtime Trains | 1T49 1640 Kings Lynn to London Kings Cross | 16/10/2025

Real-time train running information for 1T49 1640 departure from Kings Lynn to London Kings Cross on 16/10/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

And didn't even make up any time because it caught up to a TL!

 

[sharpener]

To little avail, the 10 mins made up by Cambridge was lost again by KGX.

 

[Intercity_225]

Unsure whether to put this in this thread but alot of short forms on the GN/TL network today!

Source: Thameslink website https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/service-updates/service-updates

• 08:32 Cambridge North to London Kings Cross due 09:32
  Facilities on the 08:32 Cambridge North to London Kings Cross due 09:32.
  Will be formed of 4 coaches instead of 8. First class is declassified.
• 09:32 Cambridge North to London Kings Cross due 10:32
  Facilities on the 09:32 Cambridge North to London Kings Cross due 10:32.
  Will be formed of 8 coaches instead of 12.
• 09:57 London Kings Cross to Letchworth Garden City due 10:50
  Facilities on the 09:57 London Kings Cross to Letchworth Garden City due 10:50.
  Will be formed of 4 coaches instead of 8. First class is declassified.
• 10:25 Horsham to Peterborough due 13:06
  Facilities on the 10:25 Horsham to Peterborough due 13:06.
  Will be formed of 8 coaches instead of 12.
• 11:27 Letchworth Garden City to London Kings Cross due 12:20
  Facilities on the 11:27 Letchworth Garden City to London Kings Cross due 12:20.
  Will be formed of 4 coaches instead of 8. First class is declassified.
• 11:32 Cambridge North to London Kings Cross due 12:32
  Facilities on the 11:32 Cambridge North to London Kings Cross due 12:32.
  Will be formed of 8 coaches instead of 12.
• 12:42 London Kings Cross to Cambridge North due 13:39
  Facilities on the 12:42 London Kings Cross to Cambridge North due 13:39.
  Will be formed of 4 coaches instead of 8. First class is declassified.
• 14:04 Cambridge North to London Kings Cross due 15:02
  Facilities on the 14:04 Cambridge North to London Kings Cross due 15:02.
  Will be formed of 4 coaches instead of 8. First class is declassified.

Bet the 11:27 Letchworth - Kings Cross will be cosy!

 

[jon0844]

Unsure whether to put this in this thread but alot of short forms on the GN/TL network today!

Source: Thameslink website https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/service-updates/service-updates

Bet the 11:27 Letchworth - Kings Cross will be cosy!

Balancing move to get stock around ahead of or because of engineering work?

I noticed a 12 car down to 4 cars earlier in the week. Now I bet that was very cosy!

 

[Intercity_225]

How they think this is acceptable is beyond me...

Realtime Trains | 9S61 1953 Cambridge to Brighton | 24/10/2025

Real-time train running information for 9S61 1953 departure from Cambridge to Brighton on 24/10/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

9S61 19:53 Cambridge - Brighton runs non-stop between Cambridge and Stevenage because it was 9 (!) minutes late. Worst thing is, it lost most of the time it made up at Stevenage, leaving there 6 mins late.

 

[bramling]

How they think this is acceptable is beyond me...

Realtime Trains | 9S61 1953 Cambridge to Brighton | 24/10/2025

Real-time train running information for 9S61 1953 departure from Cambridge to Brighton on 24/10/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Looks like a bad regulating decision to put it behind a Lumo at Hitchin. Completely agree that the decision to run non-stop was also a poor one, especially at the point where the TL service is down to 1tph in the evening.

Much as I hate the whole TL concept of through running, southbound TL trains should be given priority over everything else on the GN, due to the reactionary impact. If there’s reactionary impact on KX services then either the turnround and/or crew diagrams are too tight.

 

[Magdalen Road]

Fun again this morning on the Fen Line, overrunning engineering works between Stevenage and Alexandra Palace. All lines blocked so no trains through until 0700.
KLN - KGX cancelled at Cambridge so passengers taking the Brighton slow stopper instead.
GTR and TL advise delaying travel until later.

 

[milooo]

Fun again this morning on the Fen Line, overrunning engineering works between Stevenage and Alexandra Palace. All lines blocked so no trains through until 0700.
KLN - KGX cancelled at Cambridge so passengers taking the Brighton slow stopper instead.
GTR and TL advise delaying travel until later.

Things seem to be moving again

 

[jon0844]

Overrunning engineering work seems incredibly common on the ECML between Stevenage and London. If there has been work taking place, it's not unreasonable to be concerned about whether the first trains will run. I suppose you can check OTT and look at the state of the signals to get a clue, but that won't always show if the power is still off (or if the power went off and pans dropped on trains in the sidings etc).

 

[notverydeep]

Another example this morning of a GN favourite - futile skip stopping. 2C19 0856 Cambridge to King's Cross was skipped stopped from Welwyn Garden City to King's Cross. This arrived at WGC 21.5 minutes late and despite the skip stopping was still 22.5 minutes late at King's Cross having been confined to the up slow throughout. Passengers changing at WGC for the intermediate stations would have ended up on 2V25 1030 Welwyn Garden City to Moorgate, being delayed another roughly 25 minutes. I find that skip stopping almost never results in recovery over this section.

 

[Bikeman78]

It's endemic across the network now. Any train more than 10 minutes late is at risk of having stops pulled, even if the service only runs half hourly. This was virtually unheard of 20 years ago. SWR love doing it, and it frequently gains little or nothing. Recent examples including running a Hounslow loop train virtually non stop the whole way. Gained a whopping eight minutes. A Waterloo to Reading train departed 19 late. Only stopped at Staines, Ascot and Wokingham. Gained one minute, having lost 10 minutes to Staines by following various stoppers. They have 25 minutes at Reading. They could have done nothing and the back working would probably have departed on time.

 

[MikeWM]

Not posted this in a while, so in the runup to the timetable change here's the current 4-week running punctuality stats for weekday evening peak Kings Cross to Ely services:


(image shows very poor performance of most evening services between Kings Cross and Ely)

Doesn't seem to have improved much over the year. I can't see any way the new timetable will be an improvement, in fact I expect it to be worse with these services being caught behind stoppers and Thameslink services between Hitchin and Cambridge. Hopefully I'm wrong.

 

[bramling]

Not posted this in a while, so in the runup to the timetable change here's the current 4-week running punctuality stats for weekday evening peak Kings Cross to Ely services:

View attachment 192998
(image shows very poor performance of most evening services between Kings Cross and Ely)

Doesn't seem to have improved much over the year. I can't see any way the new timetable will be an improvement, in fact I expect it to be worse with these services being caught behind stoppers and Thameslink services between Hitchin and Cambridge. Hopefully I'm wrong.

I think it will be worse, as the retiming of the Ely/Kings Lynn down services makes them very susceptible to catching late running off Brighton-Cambridge services.

 

[MikeWM]

I think it will be worse, as the retaining of the Ely/Kings Lynn down services makes them very susceptible to catching late running off Brighton-Cambridge services.

Yes, on paper the new timetable looks disastrous for the down GN outers. Fingers crossed it isn't that bad in reality.

 

[bramling]

Yes, on paper the new timetable looks disastrous for the down GN outers. Fingers crossed it isn't that bad in reality.

Unfortunately I’ve already had a go at it on SimSig, and it isn’t great. But then the current timetable doesn’t exactly perform well either, so it’s swings and roundabouts really.

But, as usual, the problem is going to be Hitchin-Cambridge, not helped by the relatively recent thing of trains taking 7+ minutes to empty out at Letchworth. Slightest issue between London and Cambridge and it will all transmit through the Kings Lynn single line sections. The only thing which might help is that at certain times some trains get longer turnarounds at Kings Lynn, but this will only help if the driver diagrams include this as well.

 

[saismee]

Fingers crossed it isn't that bad in reality.

Don't cross them too tight or you'll end up with cramp and poor train service!

 

[MikeWM]

Slightest issue between London and Cambridge and it will all transmit through the Kings Lynn single line sections. The only thing which might help is that at certain times some trains get longer turnarounds at Kings Lynn, but this will only help if the driver diagrams include this as well.

Others however seem to get even less than now - middle-of-the-day on weekdays seem to be getting 10 minutes to turn at KLN versus 12 today. The turnarounds at KGX are often quite tight too, eg. the 1748 to KLN apparently forms from the 1732 arrival from KLN, which is tighter than the turnaround on the equivalent 1739 today (18 minutes, and that service only starts at Cambridge).

--

Don't cross them too tight or you'll end up with cramp and poor train service!

I expect very little indeed from GN, which has the benefit of leaving me pleasantly surprised, though only on rare occasions!

 

[Intercity_225]

The Peterborough - Horsham services so far today have been shocking. My mate has been trying to get to London Bridge from Huntingdon since about 9.30am. All southbound trains have been running fast since, with the 10.40am cancelled and the 11.10 possibly aswell. He tried to get on the 10.29 to Kings Cross, but it's so busy he couldn't get on (and that's only been going one stop, imagine what it's like at Biggleswade). No ticket acceptance possible north of the river, so his only option is to hope that the 11.10 isn't cancelled. Wouldn't be surprised if it is though..

 

[Intercity_225]

UPDATE: The 11.10 has been cancelled due to a failure of the power supply. Fantastic.

 

[Steve Harris]

UPDATE: The 11.10 has been cancelled due to a failure of the power supply. Fantastic.

Welcome to Thameslink Thamestink.

It seems customers at Huntingdon, St Neots, Sandy, Biggleswade and Arlesey are just a nuisance to them, it's just better if control forget about them.

And for those who will try and defend "control" , the customers at those locations don't have a viable alternative* unlike most other Thameslink/Great Northern stations.

*other than a bus to, and walk at, either Bedford or Cambridge adding at least 1 hour + to their journey.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The Peterborough - Horsham services so far today have been shocking. My mate has been trying to get to London Bridge from Huntingdon since about 9.30am. All southbound trains have been running fast since, with the 10.40am cancelled and the 11.10 possibly aswell. He tried to get on the 10.29 to Kings Cross, but it's so busy he couldn't get on (and that's only been going one stop, imagine what it's like at Biggleswade). No ticket acceptance possible north of the river, so his only option is to hope that the 11.10 isn't cancelled. Wouldn't be surprised if it is though..

Chaos South of the river isn't helping either with ESR's imposed on the Fast lines in the Horley area causing reductions across all Southern service groups as well.