Overnight access at London Victoria.

[Watershed]

Which organisation does the despatch at an NR station - NR or the TOC?

Generally it's TOCs that do dispatch. Birmingham New Street is one of the only exceptions to my knowledge.

 

[Simon75]

Legally they are likely allowed.

On private property, the landowner is entitled to use reasonable for ento remove trespassing, even if it is only a civil matter (in this case it may even be criminal due it relating to the railways). Usually you'd ask somebody to leave your land first, but failing that, lifting them up and carrying them off is pretty reasonable force.

Whether it's morally right is another matter but legally yes I believe it to be lawful.

As an ex retail employee, we were told we can't touch/move a shoplifter, only security or police could

 

[saismee]

As an ex retail employee, we were told we can't touch/move a shoplifter, only security or police could

That's likely a liability/insurance thing. In the example given, it was security doing the "removal".

 

[londonbridge]

Have you put in a complaint to GTR?

Please let us know how they respond.

No, I havent complained as I managed to board. Saw some people still on the platform but didn’t see what happened to them.

As per earlier posts, the gateline was open, although I tapped in as normal as I was using contactless. My opening post was intended as a general question as to whether they usually leave it late to open the gate, rather than allowing the ten minutes alluded to by @etr221.

 

[Horizon22]

We need a response from GTR regarding this situation. The incident was 18 days ago.

It would be Network Rail, not GTR who are responsible for opening / closing the station.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2025 ==

Which organisation does the despatch at an NR station - NR or the TOC?

The TOCs, so Southeastern and GTR (Southern) respectively for Victoria. But they may have been none the wiser all the way down the platform (some way from the main entrance if you're on 15-19) other than "seems a bit quiet today".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2025 ==

No, I havent complained as I managed to board. Saw some people still on the platform but didn’t see what happened to them.

As per earlier posts, the gateline was open, although I tapped in as normal as I was using contactless. My opening post was intended as a general question as to whether they usually leave it late to open the gate, rather than allowing the ten minutes alluded to by @etr221.

I would be amazed if the gateline was booked to be staffed at that hour.

Edit: When you refer to "gate", I misunderstood and presume you are actually refering to the main shutters for the station entrance. Out of interest, were any or all of the other entrances / exits opened at the same time? There's about 5 (on the lower level) at Victoria I believe.

 

[Starmill]

I don't think the train driver would be departing without a member of platform staff on hand at London Victoria, even at 3am? So both the security and the platform staff seem to have dropped the ball here.

Trains leave late in these circumstances all the time, it happens. In this case it would have been at the very most a 6-7 minute delay, about half of which would have actually been down to whatever resulted in the delayed arrival of the inward service, which is immaterial at that time of day as it would be very very unlikely to delay another train. I know I sound like a broken record but this is why it's important for the complaint to be raised formally via customer services.

When you refer to "gate", I misunderstood and presume you are actually refering to the main shutters for the station entrance. Out of interest, were any or all of the other entrances / exits opened at the same time? There's about 5 (on the lower level) at Victoria I believe.

I read it that way too. I think overnight only the main doors at the front are opened? But happy to be corrected...

 

[johncrossley]

It would be Network Rail, not GTR who are responsible for opening / closing the station.

Who is (or should be) responsible for checking that everybody has been able to get onto the train?

 

[Starmill]

Some thoughts, reading this thread:

National Rail website info for Victoria says nothing about the station being closed overnight: if this (publicly) documented anywhere? If only one entrance is going to be opened for accessing trains, which is it?

BRFares gives a 'minimum connection' time of 10 or 15 minutes, which is what I would expect to drive the 'open entrance' time (i.e. for an 0308 train, entrance should have been opened at 0253, or 0258 at the latest.

For those who didn't make the train, were they allowed to wait on the station for the next train? or ushered out to repeat the performance - including possibly not making the train - an hour later? if so, how many possible repetitions? what is the position re delay repay? when does requesting a taxi become reasonable? or calling 03457 11 41 41? or 0203 750 2031?

I would be very surprised if customer service or the press office answered the phone at 3am, although you would be perfectly at liberty to try them if you wanted to. The Network Rail contact centre would probably not understand the nature of your enquiry, or direct you to the closed TOC customer service line.

As for the taxi, you would have to pay for it yourself, and submit the bill for it to customer service later. I would expect them to pay out in these circumstances, although probably not at the first line, and maybe only after you referred the claim to the Ombudsman or filed it in the County Court. I think on balance if this happened to me that is what I would probably do. You should probably ask the security or station staff to arrange a taxi for you, but only on the basis that if they decline, you can rely on that fact later. It is very unlikely that they would actually book one for you, so asking in that expectation is a waste of both of your time. That only really serves to rebut hypothetical arguments that the taxi service you chose was too expensive, and that GTR could have arranged one cheaper somehow.

 

[Horizon22]

I don't think the train driver would be departing without a member of platform staff on hand at London Victoria, even at 3am? So both the security and the platform staff seem to have dropped the ball here.

It's all platform-based dispatch. I'm not sure how they'd have "dropped the ball", as they wouldn't have started the dispatch process if it wasn't safe to do so. And people running down the platform and darting onto the nearest doors with multiple being "left behind", certainly isn't.

I read it that way too. I think overnight only the main doors at the front are opened? But happy to be corrected...

I believe that's correct, just the "main" entrance.

Someone stated that it doesn't state the station isn't 24/7, but the Network Rail page does show this: https://www.networkrail.co.uk/rail-travel/our-stations/london-victoria/ Albeit it is somewhat buried and doesn't appear to be totally correct.

Station operating hours​

• Monday to Saturday: 04:15 – 00:40
• Sunday: 05:25 – 00:40

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2025 ==

Who is (or should be) responsible for checking that everybody has been able to get onto the train?

That's a very loaded question - who is "responsible" for checking that "everybody" gets on at any other time of day? During disruption? Overcrowding? Events? How can you always tell? It's not as simple as it sounds.

Yes there's a difference with station opening and it should be timely for the first train but it's hard to quantify. This isn't a flight when the staff know how many people should be boarding.

 

[Starmill]

I'm not sure how they'd have "dropped the ball"

They're taught it's unsafe to give the close doors indicator when they can see people are running towards the train doors, which is exactly what happened in this case according to the OP.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2025 ==

That's a very loaded question - who is "responsible" for checking that "everybody" gets on at any other time of day? During disruption? Overcrowding? Events? How can you always tell? It's not as simple as it sounds.

If you read the OP's account, it was rather obvious. The fact that a substantial number of people all show up, running, immediately after departure time, when there wasn't anyone on the platform previously, only has one plausible explanation in the circumstances.

 

[Horizon22]

They're taught it's unsafe to give the close doors indicator when they can see people are running towards the train doors, which is exactly what happened in this case according to the OP.

Yes, if the OP's recollection of events is completely correct. The dispatchers obviously aren't here to state their side of the story! At the same time, sometimes people will be running towards the platfrom endlessly - much worse with an open gateline and with delays - and it will be hard to dispatch otherwise. We may not know what exactly happened on the platform.

But to get back to the issue at hand, the root cause is for whatever reason, Network Rail did not open the station in a timely fashion for the first train. That it was - supposedly - dispatched in a seemingly 'rushed' manner by GTR staff is secondary (although still an issue if it occured) as it wouldn't have happened if people had been able to board at a normal pace.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2025 ==

We need a response from GTR regarding this situation. The incident was 18 days ago.

Why? If it hasn't even been brought to their attention and the OP didn't make a complaint. It may be that nobody did.

 

[Starmill]

The dispatchers obviously aren't here to state their side of the story!

Neither are the security guards. Unfortunately though attempting to explain what happened as all just some unavoidable accident or something would rather stretch credibility to the extreme. So I think it's reasonable and sensible to conclude as I did.

At the same time, sometimes people will be running towards the platfrom endlessly - much worse with an open gateline and with delays

How likely is that at 3am when only one train is available?

 

[Horizon22]

Neither are the security guards. Unfortunately though attempting to explain what happened as all just some unavoidable accident or something would rather stretch credibility to the extreme. So I think it's reasonable and sensible to conclude as I did.

I think it depends on where the root responsibility lies, which I in this case believes is with the delayed station opening which caused other consequences.

How likely is that at 3am when only one train is available?

Unlikely, but it is therefore all the more odd that people would be left behind in the manner suggested. If they were on the platform at departure time they could have easily boarded delaying the train for only 1 minute. It will also be unsafe if they were within the dispatch corridor.

As an aside this appears to be a purely Sunday phenomenon with a 10 minute turnaround in trains (Arrival / Departure) and also means the NR page for the opening / closing times can't be correct. Presumably a diversionary route for the TL core services?

 

[londonbridge]

It would be Network Rail, not GTR who are responsible for opening / closing the station.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2025 ==



The TOCs, so Southeastern and GTR (Southern) respectively for Victoria. But they may have been none the wiser all the way down the platform (some way from the main entrance if you're on 15-19) other than "seems a bit quiet today".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2025 ==



I would be amazed if the gateline was booked to be staffed at that hour.

Edit: When you refer to "gate", I misunderstood and presume you are actually refering to the main shutters for the station entrance. Out of interest, were any or all of the other entrances / exits opened at the same time? There's about 5 (on the lower level) at Victoria I believe.

Apologies, yes, I meant the main shutters at the entrance. I arrived by night tube and came up to the entrance by the bus station and M and S Simply Food, so I don’t know if any other entrances were open.

 

[etr221]

My understanding - correct me if I am wrong - is that the way Victoria is worked in the night hours is that the entrances are kept closed & locked, only being opened as required for whatever trains are being run (as described by the OP). Looking at RTT for the last couple of Sundays, this is one arrival and departure at about 10 past each hour.

My opening post was intended as a general question as to whether they usually leave it late to open the gate, rather than allowing the ten minutes alluded to by @etr221.

My ten-fifteen minutes figure is based on the advertised 'minimum connection' allowance for Victoria, which - in the the absence of anything else - I interpret as the time the railway indicates is required to get from entrance to train.

Someone stated that it doesn't state the station isn't 24/7, but the Network Rail page does show this: https://www.networkrail.co.uk/rail-travel/our-stations/london-victoria/ Albeit it is somewhat buried and doesn't appear to be totally correct.

'twas I: I was referring to the National Rail (provider of passenger information) web page for the station: I can still see nothing there; nor on the Southern (GTR) page for Victoria. Both of which are the obvious places for a passenger to look.

would be very surprised if customer service or the press office answered the phone at 3am, although you would be perfectly at liberty to try them if you wanted to. The Network Rail contact centre would probably not understand the nature of your enquiry, or direct you to the closed TOC customer service line.

The numbers I quoted are (03457 11 41 41) Network Rail's 24 hour contact/control number - which I would expect to respond to a reported issue at one of their stations, on their railway - and (0203 750 2031) Southern's media centre 'out of hours' number (and I can see no other 'out of hours' number for Southern) - it may not be the most appropriate number, but in the absence of anything better, will have to do...

 

[Starmill]

The numbers I quoted are (03457 11 41 41) Network Rail's 24 hour contact/control number - which I would expect to respond to a reported issue at one of their stations, on their railway - and (0203 750 2031) Southern's media centre 'out of hours' number (and I can see no other 'out of hours' number for Southern) - it may not be the most appropriate number, but in the absence of anything better, will have to do...

There is no reason not to call them. But I wouldn't expect either of them to be willing to help you as the people answering them won't see that as anything to do with them.

 

[Horizon22]

'twas I: I was referring to the National Rail (provider of passenger information) web page for the station: I can still see nothing there; nor on the Southern (GTR) page for Victoria. Both of which are the obvious places for a passenger to look.

Sure, it definitely isn't listed in what might be considered the obvious places. But you did ask whether it was publicly listed "anywhere", which indeed it is.

 

[Adam Williams]

I was referring to the National Rail (provider of passenger information) web page for the station

I might be missing something, but I am not entirely convinced the KB schema actually conceived the possibility of opening times being attached to a station itself.

Opening times in conjunction with a ticket office? Yup. A sheltered waiting area? Yup. A waiting room? Yup. Left luggage facility? Yup.

I suspect that that is why there's no information about this.

 

[Taunton]

they wouldn't have started the dispatch process if it wasn't safe to do so. And people running down the platform and darting onto the nearest doors with multiple being "left behind", certainly isn't.

I admire your confidence, however this is the new world where precise punctuality targets trump everything, on pain of a "please explain" missive from HQ by the end of the shift. Certainly here on the DLR departing the moment the train gets the "ding" from the signalling led to the doors being closed on a pram with baby in it being manoeuvred halfway in.

Same at airports now. Only this last week at Stansted a passenger had fallen on the escalator and was seriously injured, a doctor behind gave assistance until the on-site team arrived, only to find that not only his plane had just closed doors, but he was even charged substantially extra to get the next one, and when he asked for that to be waived received a snotty response from the airline's HQ telling him to be on time next time, just like all the other passengers had been - this from attending to an accident to one of the airline's own passengers.

 

[nanstallon]

I admire your confidence, however this is the new world where precise punctuality targets trump everything, on pain of a "please explain" missive from HQ by the end of the shift. Certainly here on the DLR departing the moment the train gets the "ding" from the signalling led to the doors being closed on a pram with baby in it being manoeuvred halfway in.

Same at airports now. Only this last week at Stansted a passenger had fallen on the escalator and was seriously injured, a doctor behind gave assistance until the on-site team arrived, only to find that not only his plane had just closed doors, but he was even charged substantially extra to get the next one, and when he asked for that to be waived received a snotty response from the airline's HQ telling him to be on time next time, just like all the other passengers had been - this from attending to an accident to one of the airline's own passengers.

Modern Britain; a good deed seldom goes unpunished.

 

[Turtle]

Modern Britain; a good deed seldom goes unpunished.

Good old Ryanair.

 

[Bikeman78]

What used to happen when there was a half hourly service through the night? I doubt the station was locked up at all then.

 

[Horizon22]

What used to happen when there was a half hourly service through the night? I doubt the station was locked up at all then.

How long back are we talking? Presumably pre-modern Thameslink?

 

[JonathanH]

What used to happen when there was a half hourly service through the night? I doubt the station was locked up at all then.

That is over 20 years ago, before Gatwick Express dropped the 0130 and 0230 departures. I still think it would be locked up today in the circumstance of half hourly departures.

 

[Horizon22]

I still think it would be locked up today in the circumstance of half hourly departures.

Really? You’d be doing a lot of marshalling people (some of who may need some…’persuasion’) out every 20 mins or so and then reopening. I imagine it would remain 24/7 from a purely logistical point of view as it would be a considerable hassle to keep closing > reopening > closing.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

Who is (or should be) responsible for checking that everybody has been able to get onto the train?

Nobody. Because, as the poster below points out, nobody cares if you get your train or not. Network Rail don't care, so long as you aren't hanging around their station, and the TOC doesn't care, so long as the train leaves on time. Whether you're on it is completely irrelevant to these organisations and many of the people who work for them.

Modern day railway. The station is managed by Network Rail, who will have their own standards for station security and access, although with minimal night rate cost staffing and supervision. The train is run by GTR, who will have quite separate standards, for punctuality, with on time departure key, regardless of whether all (or any) passengers have been able to get in it, just so they can report on time to the DfT and Golden Whistles.

 

[nanstallon]

That is over 20 years ago, before Gatwick Express dropped the 0130 and 0230 departures. I still think it would be locked up today in the circumstance of half hourly departures.

Really - how British. On a par with running the 07.08 Manchester to Euston with no fare paying passengers!

 

[Bikeman78]

That is over 20 years ago, before Gatwick Express dropped the 0130 and 0230 departures. I still think it would be locked up today in the circumstance of half hourly departures.

Yes, I'm thinking back to the days of CIGs and class 73s. I only did it once or twice but my recollection is that people could wander in and out at will. The trains, whilst not busy, certainly weren't dead so there was a steady trickle of people heading to and from the relevant platforms.

 

[Taunton]

Not everybody would have had return tickets, particularly if heading to Gatwick for first flights. Some would be wanting to buy tickets. However can it even be envisaged not to let people in with enough time to buy tickets at the machine.

 

[Horizon22]

Really - how British. On a par with running the 07.08 Manchester to Euston with no fare paying passengers!

That’s pure speculation though. I personally don’t think it would be closed on/off overnight.