Regional Variances in Ticket Prices

[Kingfisher200262]

I'm starting this thread under NR General, but site admin may decide to move it to rolling stock, or even wrap it in with the existing "Where will the next DMU order be?" thread.

Last night, I decided to venture out from Liverpool and head east into my old home patch of the Peak District, aiming for a favourite pub of mine in Disley. I noticed that the ticket price for a return seemed incredibly low, so I thought I'd do a few comparisons on the Trainline.

Where I live now, the standard open single price from Bishops Stortford to Cambridge (38 mins) is £8.40 and the standard open single price from Bishops Stortford to Harlow Town (10 mins) is £4.60.

Contrast this with Manchester Piccadilly to Disley (31 mins) for £5.00 and Stockport to Manchester Piccadilly (11 mins) for £2.00 .

And then contrast this with Liverpool Central to Chester (41 mins) for £5.15 and Liverpool Central to Birkenhead North (12 mins) for £2.25.

Now, there are three striking differences between the first example and the other two: -

1. The first is a London commuter railway (although I'm only choosing relatively local journeys outside Greater London as examples) and the other two aren't;

2. The fares one the first aren't subsidised by a PTE and the other two are; and

3. The first has some bright shiny new trains, and the other two don't.

Now, it seems to me that the main reason that Northern and Merseyrail have some of the oldest trains on our network, is because the financial wizards seem to be unable to make a strong enough financial business case for fleet replacement.

Maybe I'm missing something, but might this be because the fares are so heavily supported by the PTEs?

So, a question and then a poll. When putting together business cases for new trains, does PTE subsidy get disregarded from the maths (and if not, should it?!?)?

And then the poll. Given that a PTE has a finite pot of money and can only spend the money once, should they use that money to subsidise fares, or put it towards the cost of fleet replacement?

 

[WestCoast]

That's all very well but remember there is more to Northern's network than just PTE areas. Many of Manchester's services extend well beyond the boundaries of the TfGM PTE area, which may be part of the reason why they are concentrating on Metrolink rather than the local rail network. This is done to keep the investment within the GM area.

This is not so much the case with the other northern PTEs (apart from NEXUS who also prefer their self-contained metro).

I'd support a North West super PTE.

Fare comparisons -
Where I live now, the standard open single price from Bishops Stortford to Cambridge (38 mins) is £8.40

Non PTE in the North: Wennington to Lancaster (25 mins) - £6.10 Anytime Day Single. About 15 miles by rail. It's not always the case that fares are so much cheaper, there are also variances across an area of the country.

In response to your question, I'd say there has to be a balance to achieve, so I can't vote either way.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

That's all very well but remember there is more to Northern's network than just PTE areas. Many of Manchester's services extend well beyond the boundaries of the TfGM PTE area, which may be part of the reason why they are concentrating on Metrolink rather than the local rail network. This is done to keep the investment within the GM area.

This is not so much the case with the other northern PTEs (apart from NEXUS who also prefer their self-contained metro).

I'd support a North West super PTE.


Non PTE in the North: Wennington to Lancaster (25 mins) - £6.10 Anytime Day Single. About 15 miles by rail. It's not always the case that fares are so much cheaper, there are also variances across an area of the country.

In response to your question, I'd say there has to be a balance to achieve, so I can't vote either way.

I take your point about fares outside the PTE areas, which is why I was using examples of fares within the PTE areas.

The problem is there is no balance, nor any fleet replacement either!

 

[WestCoast]

I take your point about fares outside the PTE areas, which is why I was using examples of fares within the PTE areas.

The problem is there is no balance, nor any fleet replacement either!

Well, at the moment I reckon Metro/Merseytravel/TfGM are doing quite well at the subsidised fares aspect, but I just think they don't have enough cash to replace the pacers (or the muscle), nor have the desire to, when it will benefit "other areas". Which is just despairing.

TfGM are spending a lot of money (from their own pot, local councils and central government) on Metrolink, which admittedly has removed pacers from one line.

 

[yorksrob]

Now, it seems to me that the main reason that Northern and Merseyrail have some of the oldest trains on our network, is because the financial wizards seem to be unable to make a strong enough financial business case for fleet replacement.

Maybe I'm missing something, but might this be because the fares are so heavily supported by the PTEs?

Merseyrail has has third rail MU's which are well known for lasting for years (40 easily) so that could have something to do with the situation.

As for Northern, you have to remember that railways in the PTE area have to keep people in their local areas moving and the economy ticking over(Northern cities are very succeptible to road congestion), whilst at the same time being pitched at a price that local employment can afford. This suggests to me that the current level of subsidy is correct to keep those networks doing what their Cities need.

However, as West Yorks in particular has shown with the 333's subsidising passenger fares doesn't necessarily preclude investment in rolling stock.

Infact, looking at some of the non PTE areas of Northern, it wouldn't surprise me if the (relative) lack of subsidy makes them less attractive for investment. Take the Whitby branch for example. Even with its relatively circuitous route, it wouldn't surprise me if there were a potential market for visitors from West Yorkshire for example. However, since the return fare from Leeds is £36 I expect a lot of these will be discouraged.

Lets not forget as well that at least some of the Southern region TOC's were receiving a subsidy at the time they were replacing their slammers, so even relatively high priced areas need assistance replacing stock.

 

[route:oxford]

Alternative comparison would be University City to Capital...

Oxford-London peak return - £51.00
Stirling-Edinburgh peak return - £12.50

About the same time, about the same distance. More than 3 times the price.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

Merseyrail has has third rail MU's which are well known for lasting for years (40 easily) so that could have something to do with the situation.

As for Northern, you have to remember that railways in the PTE area have to keep people in their local areas moving and the economy ticking over(Northern cities are very succeptible to road congestion), whilst at the same time being pitched at a price that local employment can afford. This suggests to me that the current level of subsidy is correct to keep those networks doing what their Cities need.

However, as West Yorks in particular has shown with the 333's subsidising passenger fares doesn't necessarily preclude investment in rolling stock.

Infact, looking at some of the non PTE areas of Northern, it wouldn't surprise me if the (relative) lack of subsidy makes them less attractive for investment. Take the Whitby branch for example. Even with its relatively circuitous route, it wouldn't surprise me if there were a potential market for visitors from West Yorkshire for example. However, since the return fare from Leeds is £36 I expect a lot of these will be discouraged.

All good points.

On the Leeds - Whitby, I thought I'd check my comparator of an open single and OUCH! - £32.00! That said, it is a three hour, ten minute journey, so in terms of time spent enjoying the inside of a TPE then a Northern DMU, it's actually great value!

I should imagine the lack of frequency would put your West Yorkshire visitors off, and, in truth, so would the journey time. It can't be much more than an hour and a half in the car.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Alternative comparison would be University City to Capital...

Oxford-London peak return - £51.00
Stirling-Edinburgh peak return - £12.50

About the same time, about the same distance. More than 3 times the price.

Or, snuggled in between, Cambridge - KX, £34.00 return in the peak.

Slightly off-topic however, unless Stirling - Edinburgh is subsidised by SPTE, which I doubt.

 

[yorksrob]

All good points.

On the Leeds - Whitby, I thought I'd check my comparator of an open single and OUCH! - £32.00! That said, it is a three hour, ten minute journey, so in terms of time spent enjoying the inside of a TPE then a Northern DMU, it's actually great value!

I should imagine the lack of frequency would put your West Yorkshire visitors off, and, in truth, so would the journey time. It can't be much more than an hour and a half in the car.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
.

If it weren't so "out on a limb" from the rest of their network, I suspect Northern might have introduced one of their day rovers to pep things up a bit.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I suppose I am rather spoilt from holidaying in the South West, where some quite long journeys seem to have their fares held down to attract tourists - but then they do have lots of HSTs to fill

 

[exile]

Alternative comparison would be University City to Capital...

Oxford-London peak return - £51.00
Stirling-Edinburgh peak return - £12.50

About the same time, about the same distance. More than 3 times the price.

It isn't "about the same distance". Oxford to London 63.5 miles, Stirling to Edinburgh is 36.5.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm starting this thread under NR General, but site admin may decide to move it to rolling stock, or even wrap it in with the existing "Where will the next DMU order be?" thread.

Last night, I decided to venture out from Liverpool and head east into my old home patch of the Peak District, aiming for a favourite pub of mine in Disley. I noticed that the ticket price for a return seemed incredibly low, so I thought I'd do a few comparisons on the Trainline.

Where I live now, the standard open single price from Bishops Stortford to Cambridge (38 mins) is £8.40 and the standard open single price from Bishops Stortford to Harlow Town (10 mins) is £4.60.

Contrast this with Manchester Piccadilly to Disley (31 mins) for £5.00 and Stockport to Manchester Piccadilly (11 mins) for £2.00 .

And then contrast this with Liverpool Central to Chester (41 mins) for £5.15 and Liverpool Central to Birkenhead North (12 mins) for £2.25.

Now, there are three striking differences between the first example and the other two: -

1. The first is a London commuter railway (although I'm only choosing relatively local journeys outside Greater London as examples) and the other two aren't;

2. The fares one the first aren't subsidised by a PTE and the other two are; and

3. The first has some bright shiny new trains, and the other two don't.

Now, it seems to me that the main reason that Northern and Merseyrail have some of the oldest trains on our network, is because the financial wizards seem to be unable to make a strong enough financial business case for fleet replacement.

Maybe I'm missing something, but might this be because the fares are so heavily supported by the PTEs?

So, a question and then a poll. When putting together business cases for new trains, does PTE subsidy get disregarded from the maths (and if not, should it?!?)?

And then the poll. Given that a PTE has a finite pot of money and can only spend the money once, should they use that money to subsidise fares, or put it towards the cost of fleet replacement?

Why compare times - it's more logical to compare distances. Bishop's Stortford to Cambridge is 25.5 miles, Manchester to Disley is 12.5 miles.

So, Bishop's to Cambridge is 28p per mile and Manchester to Disley is 40p a mile, which turns the argument on its head.

That is, if a 30 mile trip takes 40 minutes I'd expect to pay more than for a 20 mile trip taking 50 minutes.

 

[LE Greys]

I'm not voting, mostly because I want them to buy new trains up north and subsidise fares down south. Basically, both areas are out of balance, and this might just get them back in balance. We can manage with what we have for a while, but ticket prices are getting very expensive. They need new trains up north and can worry about ticket prices later. Once they get the balance right, things should work out a lot better.

Of course, there is no 'London and South East TPE'. Probably, individual counties or regions would want one. I never liked the NSE model, because it was part of sectorisation and destroyed vertical the integration of services, but it might work better for a TPE than it did for actual operations. Even if we had an 'East Anglia TPE', a 'Home Counties TPE', a 'Thames Valley and Chiltern TPE' and a 'Southern Region TPE' (essentially ER, LMR, WR and SR London commuter TPEs) then that just might work.

Just an idea.

 

[Max]

On the Leeds - Whitby, I thought I'd check my comparator of an open single and OUCH! - £32.00! That said, it is a three hour, ten minute journey, so in terms of time spent enjoying the inside of a TPE then a Northern DMU, it's actually great value!

Check the fare from York for the ideal split!

 

[Kingfisher200262]

That is, if a 30 mile trip takes 40 minutes I'd expect to pay more than for a 20 mile trip taking 50 minutes.

Are you sure? I'd feel quite aggrieved if I had to pay more for a shorter journey that took longer.

In general, I should think that journey time is a better comparator than distance, particularly for relatively short trips. If the journey time is too long, people will simply use the car.

 

[yorksrob]

Check the fare from York for the ideal split!

Wow,

That's quite a saving ! (starts planning visit to Whitby branch).

 

[starrymarkb]

Bit out of date but last time I did Exeter to Plymouth - 50ish miles and 1hr on an HST it was £7.50 on a Off Peak Day return

Exeter - Dawlish last year cost £6.75 for 3 of us on a Groupsave

 

[tbtc]

Worth pointing out that Northern tend to stick to "vanilla" tickets, rather than offering a complicated variety of advance fares - so whilst the Northern fares may seem cheap compared to other TOCs, those other TOCs may offer some alternative cheaper tickets (on "named trains")

 

[WestCoast]

Worth pointing out that Northern tend to stick to "vanilla" tickets, rather than offering a complicated variety of advance fares - so whilst the Northern fares may seem cheap compared to other TOCs, those other TOCs may offer some alternative cheaper tickets (on "named trains")

An extremely worthwhile point.

I hear "Northern is cheap" fairly regularly. Outside the PTE areas, I don't always think this is true. They offer no advance tickets ("a-la-Southern dirt cheap ticket sale"), no regular special daysavers ("a-la-Southern Daysave"), no "super off-peak". For the commuter they are cheaper, but for the off-peak leisure traveller I don't think they always are.

Infact their ticketing is extremely basic, no online engine and they don't offer any TOD TVMs at stations!

The South Eastern TOCs often have off-peak capacity "to fill" in addition to flows against commuting patterns. The trains are rammed in the peaks, but are they always for the rest of the day?

That "off-peak space" often doesn't exist with Northern, as it's a case of how full can you cram a pacer (which might have some carriages added in the peak, or it may not!). I am not saying that is always the case, but it certainly seems to be the situation on a number of routes.

 

[ukrob]

And then contrast this with Liverpool Central to Chester (41 mins) for £5.15 and Liverpool Central to Birkenhead North (12 mins) for £2.25.

The Chester ticket seems expensive. Are you doing peak time fares? There are at least two off peak return tickets cheaper than that - a Merseyrail offering and a PTE offering. And both offer unlimited travel on the Northern and Wirral lines.

 

[Chris B]

There is no such ticket as a 'Standard Open Single' any more.

Its an Anytime Single.

 

[WestCoast]

There is no such ticket as a 'Standard Open Single' any more.

Its an Anytime Single.

Although, I've seen senior members of this forum refer to tickets as CDRs/SORs recently - Cheap Day Returns and Standard Open Returns, which don't exist anymore either.

Simplification is wonderful. Ahem.

 

[Greenback]

Although, I've seen senior members of this forum refer to tickets as CDRs/SORs recently - Cheap Day Returns and Standard Open Returns, which don't exist anymore either.

Simplification is wonderful. Ahem.

I believe that these codes are still used in Avantix!

 

[Chris B]

Some codes didn't change with the new names....

CDR is the Off-Peak Day Return
SOR is the Anytime Return
SVR is the off-peak Return

 

[WestCoast]

Some codes didn't change with the new names....

CDR is the Off-Peak Day Return
SOR is the Anytime Return
SVR is the off-peak Return

Ah, I see. Still rather confusing though, since the codes don't match the name!

 

[Chris B]

very few people care what the codes are!

 

[142094]

Although I'd rather have both new trains and cheap tickets, I half expect ticket prices to rise when a new order of trains is brought in. Therefore I'd rather have the subsidised tickets rather than a new train.

What many have touched on already is the fact that much of the rolling stock that is used gets shifted around the place. The only one that I can think of off hand is the 333s in West Yorkshire, which have certainly proved the fact that they can attract new business from commuter towns such as Skipton and Ilkley into Leeds. However even the centre coaches for the 144s, which were funded by WYPTE go into South Yorkshire and Greater Manchester. Taking my own PTE for example, Nexus, we only have one route that is self-contained within Tyne and Wear (Newcastle - MetroCentre). So any funding for new rolling stock would probably go towards that. I wouldn't want to see the extra tax that is paid from Tyne and Wear go to provide new stock for other routes out of Newcastle. Then again most of the investment for Tyne and Wear should be for the Metro.

 

[tbtc]

What many have touched on already is the fact that much of the rolling stock that is used gets shifted around the place. The only one that I can think of off hand is the 333s in West Yorkshire, which have certainly proved the fact that they can attract new business from commuter towns such as Skipton and Ilkley into Leeds. However even the centre coaches for the 144s, which were funded by WYPTE go into South Yorkshire and Greater Manchester. Taking my own PTE for example, Nexus, we only have one route that is self-contained within Tyne and Wear (Newcastle - MetroCentre). So any funding for new rolling stock would probably go towards that. I wouldn't want to see the extra tax that is paid from Tyne and Wear go to provide new stock for other routes out of Newcastle. Then again most of the investment for Tyne and Wear should be for the Metro.

Even the 333s aren't self contained to West Yorkshire (Skipton being in North Yorkshire).

However, there's a problem in the premis of this thread. Not every line will be profitable (under British Rail, under the current method of privatisation, under any "fantasy" method of privatisation). There will always be some lines which need subsidy.

Now, are we saying that only profitable lines can get new stock? Because in that case the only new trains will be on certain Intercity franchises, and certain London commuter routes.

Personally, I think we have to accept the social nature of the railway and replace the stock in most need of replacement.

We can argue all day about the "cheap fares" on Northern (no cheap advanced tickets, lots of short journeys where the same seat is occupied several times on one diagram, PTE subsidies, no "summer sales" or "red dot days" etc) but if the only way we can get new stock is to ensure a line becomes profitable then we might as well go down the Beeching route and close half of the "provincial" railways

 

[northwichcat]

Where I live now, the standard open single price from Bishops Stortford to Cambridge (38 mins) is £8.40 and the standard open single price from Bishops Stortford to Harlow Town (10 mins) is £4.60.

Contrast this with Manchester Piccadilly to Disley (31 mins) for £5.00 and Stockport to Manchester Piccadilly (11 mins) for £2.00 .

And then contrast this with Liverpool Central to Chester (41 mins) for £5.15 and Liverpool Central to Birkenhead North (12 mins) for £2.25.

I notice you're comparing NXEA fares to that of Northern and Merseyrail. Don't forget that NXEA offer cheap Advance singles on some routes which Northern and Merseyrail don't offer on any route.

Knutsford-Chester (a non-PTE Northern set fare) is a similar to Bishops Stortford to Cambridge. However, Knutsford-Chester costs £9.70 so it's actually more in Northern land in a non-PTE area plus the rolling stock is inferior and usually 142s and 150s.

 

[ashworth]

The non existance of cheap advance fares with seat reservations is not a problem for Northerns shorter routes but it is for anyone wanting to make long distance journeys.
Northern do run a few longer distance services that do provide relatively good, and reasonably fast links over long distances that are not always that much longer in journey time by other routes. Nottingham to Leeds, Leeds to Carlisle and York to Blackpool North spring to mind.
However, with no advance fares available a Nottingham to Carlisle Anytime Return (route Appleby)costs £65.40. You would have to ask specifically for this fare otherwise they would probably sell you an Off Peak Return for £71.90 or even worse an Anytime Return for £107.50.
Looking at both the East Coast and East Midlands Trains sites the £65.40 (via Appleby) fare does not appear unles you specify via Appleby. I do wonder if I turned up one morning at peak time at Nottingham to purchase a return to Carlisle whether they would just sell me the £107.50 ticket and not tell me that it is only £65.40 with just one change at Leeds?

 

[Chris B]

The non existance of cheap advance fares with However, with no advance fares available a Nottingham to Carlisle Anytime Return (route Appleby)costs £65.40. You would have to ask specifically for this fare otherwise they would probably sell you an Off Peak Return for £71.90 or even worse an Anytime Return for £107.50.

THey should sell you the cheapest fare from your station to your destination, unless you express a wish to go on the fastest service. You can rightly complain if they don't.

Looking at both the East Coast dnd East Midlands Trains sites the £65.40 (via Appleby) fare does not appear unles you specify via Appleby.

That would be because those sites are programmed to give you the fastest journeys. You can request slower journeys too now, and it will appear.

I do wonder if I turned up one morning at peak time at Nottingham to purchase a return to Carlisle whether they would just sell me the £107.50 ticket and not tell me that it is only £65.40 with just one change at Leeds?

Try it - and report it to Passenger Focus if they get it wrong....

 

[ashworth]

The main point I forgot to add to my post above was:
If Northern did advance fares Nottingham to Carlisle, via Leeds, should be way under £20 each way if booked well in advance. You can get advance tickets to various destinations in Scotland via that route which are priced by Virgin. I recently visited relatives in Dunoon and got advance fares from Nottingham to Gourock at £25.50 each way with changes at Leeds and Glasgow Central.
Yet passengers from Nottingam to Carlisle are not given that option.
What fares you can get very much seems to be a lottery, depending upon where you are travelling and what TOC, rather than any kind of standardisation and simplification that we were promised a few years ago.

 

[yorksrob]

Taking my own PTE for example, Nexus, we only have one route that is self-contained within Tyne and Wear (Newcastle - MetroCentre). So any funding for new rolling stock would probably go towards that. I wouldn't want to see the extra tax that is paid from Tyne and Wear go to provide new stock for other routes out of Newcastle. Then again most of the investment for Tyne and Wear should be for the Metro.

I must admit, I think the taxpayers of Leeds still get a pretty good deal from their (if we haven't been forced to flog em yet) 155's, even though they usually end up on cross-boundary services.