Trivia: largest place without late evening journeys

[Simon75]

Shrewsbury (though getting some later buses) 76,000 has no buses after 9pm. What other large places don't have late evening buses?

 

[stadler]

Shrewsbury (though getting some later buses) 76,000 has no buses after 9pm. What other large places don't have late evening buses?

Sevenoaks with a population of around 30,000 is the largest place in the Kent and Surrey and Sussex areas that i can think of. It has zero buses running anywhere after 20:00 in the evening. Shrewsbury certainly seems rather unique for somewhere of its size to have no evening or sunday services.

 

[daodao]

The Macclesfield/Wilmslow area of East Cheshire has no evening buses after 2000 other than route 38 on Mon-Sat from Macclesfield to Crewe.

 

[greenline712]

Shrewsbury (though getting some later buses) 76,000 has no buses after 9pm. What other large places don't have late evening buses?

Shropshire County Council took the decision several years ago (I think just pre-Covid) to concentrate their limited funding on supporting bus services when passengers actually used them. Arriva, as the main local operator, didn't see fit to waste any money by running them commercially.

I'm not local, but is there much in Shrewsbury to attract passengers after 21.00? Is there a sizeable university / college with students roaming around? If there's nothing much there, then leave the taxis to satisfy the (limited) demand.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The Macclesfield/Wilmslow area of East Cheshire has no evening buses after 2000 other than route 38 on Mon-Sat from Macclesfield to Crewe.

So it does have a bus service, albeit only one!

The entire interior of North Yorkshire doesn't have any bus services after about 1800/1900.

In what was the former Hambleton district council area, there is a single bus from York to Easingwold about 2100 but nothing in Stokesley, Northallerton, Thirsk. In the former Richmondshire, the service stretching across the border from Darlington to Richmond/Catterick is the only one, and in Craven, just a couple of tendrils across the border from Burnley and Keighley.

That said, it is incredibly sparsely populated

 

[stevieinselby]

The entire interior of North Yorkshire doesn't have any bus services after about 1800/1900.

In what was the former Hambleton district council area, there is a single bus from York to Easingwold about 2100 but nothing in Stokesley, Northallerton, Thirsk. In the former Richmondshire, the service stretching across the border from Darlington to Richmond/Catterick is the only one, and in Craven, just a couple of tendrils across the border from Burnley and Keighley.

I assumed when the question asked about the largest place, they were looking for the largest population, but the swathe of North Yorkshire must be one of the largest in terms of geographical area, although probably doesn't add up to the population of Shrewsbury across the entire stretch – Northallerton is far and away the largest town in that area but at only 17,000 it is not in any sense of the word a large town!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I assumed when the question asked about the largest place, they were looking for the largest population, but the swathe of North Yorkshire must be one of the largest in terms of geographical area, although probably doesn't add up to the population of Shrewsbury across the entire stretch – Northallerton is far and away the largest town in that area but at only 17,000 it is not in any sense of the word a large town!

I was being slightly mischievous about how you interpret "largest place" and yes, a single large town was doubtless the aim.

As for North Yorkshire, the former Hambleton district is 91,000 and if you remove Easingwold getting one evening journey, it still leaves 86,000 (and probably another 40,000 in Craven and 20,000 in Richmondshire) so a c.140k people but in a wide geographic, low population density area.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Shrewsbury (though getting some later buses) 76,000 has no buses after 9pm. What other large places don't have late evening buses?

Fairly large parts of Milton Keynes have no evening buses, particularly on Sundays. Not one single place but probably higher population than some of the places mentioned.

The Headbolt Lane-Wigan railway has a very early finish, though not as early as it was, largely due to "bricking" incidents in the 1980s if I recall.

 

[mattb7tl]

Stoke was the main offender (population 250k+). It’s gained a handful of evening services recently thanks to funding, but that won’t last, the area essentially “lost the bus company lottery.”

First tends to expect evening routes to sustain themselves purely on demand, which just isn’t how they work. Evening services usually need cross-subsidy from daytime profits, but First rarely does this. As a result, they often soak up transport levies and government funding for early evening journeys, while their overall networks remain underwhelming for the size of the areas they serve (Leeds being a good example).

 

[Flange Squeal]

Fleet in Hampshire (just under 45,000 population) has no buses after 20:00, although BSIP funding has recently seen it gain its first Sunday service in at least 30ish years.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Stoke was the main offender (population 250k+). It’s gained a handful of evening services recently thanks to funding, but that won’t last, the area essentially “lost the bus company lottery.”

First tends to expect evening routes to sustain themselves purely on demand, which just isn’t how they work. Evening services usually need cross-subsidy from daytime profits, but First rarely does this. As a result, they often soak up transport levies and government funding for early evening journeys, while their overall networks remain underwhelming for the size of the areas they serve (Leeds being a good example).

That's not true.

They do run shoulder services that don't pay their way on those fares alone because they do understand that there are network benefits i.e. you will have passengers that will need to get home, so they take a bit of a bath on those for the wider benefit. That said, Arriva do take that approach on individual journeys. What operators don't do is spend £30/hr on running buses from 2000 to midnight for a handful of people because it's financially dumb.

Also, have you been to the Potteries of an evening? I can remember having a Friday night out in Hanley c.2000, and being shocked when I did the same in 2021. The evening economy has died on its behind. In fact, you can say that of much of the Potteries during the day too!

 

[Busoccultation]

Brentwood (population of around 55,000) has no evening buses after 8pm, with the exception of TfL 498 to/from Romford.

 

[izvor]

Sevenoaks with a population of around 30,000 is the largest place in the Kent and Surrey and Sussex areas that i can think of. It has zero buses running anywhere after 20:00 in the evening. Shrewsbury certainly seems rather unique for somewhere of its size to have no evening or sunday services.

Deal has about the same population and has no evening bus services.

Sittingbourne (over 50,000) has no late services apart from a single 2100 journey from Canterbury M-S (which I wouldn't really count as "late" and which, stupidly, must go back light to Canterbury)

Faversham (20,000) ditto - same bus!

Sheerness (40,000 including adjoining Minster) has no evening bus services.

Large areas of Kent are now bus deserts, however all the places above, including Sevenoaks, do have good to very good rail services into the evening.

Edit: Suffolk ditto, Bury St Edmunds (40,000+) has no evening services.

Another interesting topic would be largest places without rail stations to have no late evening bus services. Or indeed, no bus services at all.

 

[robbob700]

Suffolk ditto, Bury St Edmunds (40,000+) has no evening services.

Bury St Edmunds does have a couple of evening services on the 43 towards Sudbury at 2015 and 2230

 

[davehsug]

That's not true.

They do run shoulder services that don't pay their way on those fares alone because they do understand that there are network benefits i.e. you will have passengers that will need to get home, so they take a bit of a bath on those for the wider benefit. That said, Arriva do take that approach on individual journeys. What operators don't do is spend £30/hr on running buses from 2000 to midnight for a handful of people because it's financially dumb.

Also, have you been to the Potteries of an evening? I can remember having a Friday night out in Hanley c.2000, and being shocked when I did the same in 2021. The evening economy has died on its behind. In fact, you can say that of much of the Potteries during the day too!

Chicken & egg. I still attend concerts in Hanley about once a month. I used to travel by bus because it was more convenient, having bus stops close to my home and the concert hall, with parking being further away. Now, I have to take the car because although a few evening services have been re-introduced, they're few and far between, meaning long waits. It also means I occasionally miss events because I just can't be bothered de-icing the car or driving in fog on winter evenings.

 

[aron2smith]

Waltham Abbey, Essex - no buses to it from its nearest rail station, Waltham Cross after just 9:30pm! Sunday - just 1 hourly bus route serves the entire town, last bus is only 19:45. 23000 people. Very very poor for somewhere next to London. Amongst the worst bus areas in Essex, given its size! The Lea Valley as soon as it's outside London is pretty terrible for buses. Half of Cheshunt has no bus service after 8pm. I do wonder what drove the demand away as old London Transport timetables from up till the 80s show multiple services in both towns running up just after Midnight 7 days a week! More people live around here now more than ever, the lack of demand for buses makes no sense, especially as trains in the area to/from London are busy most hours.

 

[satisnek]

Worcester?

 

[izvor]

Bury St Edmunds does have a couple of evening services on the 43 towards Sudbury at 2015 and 2230

You are correct, thanks. I missed those.

 

[dgl]

I wonder what time the last service from Yeovil (Somerset) operates, they also have only just got a small Sunday service back.

 

[JKP]

I wonder what time the last service from Yeovil (Somerset) operates, they also have only just got a small Sunday service back.

Last bus to Wells is 2250.

 

[Martin1988]

The Macclesfield/Wilmslow area of East Cheshire has no evening buses after 2000 other than route 38 on Mon-Sat from Macclesfield to Crewe.

Are the late evening journeys from Macclesfield to Crewe well used ? Have only ever used these journeys from Haslington towards Crewe and when I have, there has always only ever been a few people on the bus. Is the demand in the evening more at the Macclesfield end of the route rather than the Crewe end?

Speaking of Crewe, from what I understand there was definitely a more generous level of evening provision in the past (Sundays too) including on the First Potteries service between Crewe and Hanley but that has now all but been cut back and the latest journey now is just after 2300 on the 38 towards Macclesfield.

Am pretty sure that in Telford, a lot of services seem to stop around the 2000/2100 mark rather than the 2200/2300 mark.

 

[geoffk]

Worcester?

I checked as I used to live in Worcester. I couldn't find anything after around 19.30. However, service improvements, including some evening services, are due to come in next month. This from the worcestershire.gov.uk website.

Local bus information | Worcestershire County Council

Information about the local bus services.

www.worcestershire.gov.uk

https://www.worcestershire.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2024-11/Bus%20service%20enhancements.pdf

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I checked as I used to live in Worcester. I couldn't find anything after around 19.30. However, service improvements, including some evening services, are due to come in next month. This from the worcestershire.gov.uk website.

Local bus information | Worcestershire County Council

Information about the local bus services.

www.worcestershire.gov.uk

https://www.worcestershire.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2024-11/Bus%20service%20enhancements.pdf

Aren't these Jan 2025 enhancements?

 

[geoffk]

Aren't these Jan 2025 enhancements?

Oh yes sorry. January 2025. This shows two city services running until 23.10, plus a later bus to Malvern at 20.25.

 

[Simon75]

Are the late evening journeys from Macclesfield to Crewe well used ? Have only ever used these journeys from Haslington towards Crewe and when I have, there has always only ever been a few people on the bus. Is the demand in the evening more at the Macclesfield end of the route rather than the Crewe end

On a Friday and Saturday it can be busy with people going to pubs on the Macclesfield to Sandbach section

 

[Martin1988]

On a Friday and Saturday it can be busy with people going to pubs on the Macclesfield to Sandbach section

Thanks for clarifying this

 

[MaidaVale]

Shrewsbury's neighbour Telford (185-200k ish) has very poor evening service in the last couple of years. It used to be pretty good until a few years ago, but it's steadily dropped off.

The main arterial route of the 4 has it's first bus around 6am with the last one doing the full length of the route around 8pm with a few short trips until about 9.30. It ran much earlier in a morning and comfortably past 11pm until a few years ago. Other main routes like the 7 now don't see service past 7.30pm. Lawley Village, a new housing area with over 30,000 homes doesn't see a bus service beyond 6pm apart from a single short journey on route 8 at around 8pm.

 

[Murray J]

Fleet in Hampshire (just under 45,000 population) has no buses after 20:00, although BSIP funding has recently seen it gain its first Sunday service in at least 30ish years.

In general I think Fleet is one of the worst connected towns in the South East in terms of bus service. A population of 45,000 and it gets an hourly daytime service to Farnborough and a 2-hourly service to Aldershot, it's pretty poor although from memory the network was larger 15 years ago.

 

[MaidaVale]

from memory the network was larger 15 years ago

Fleet even maintained a bus service to Reading up until a couple years ago, albeit not a frequent one. Shame it's no more as it's quite a black spot in terms of connections, there's not really an easy way to get between Reading and Fleet/Aldershot by public transport without a change of trains in Basingstoke, Ascot or Ash Vale/North Camp, the latter requiring a walk between two seperate stations. Mad considering how close it is in reality. Woking has terrible connections from Reading too.

 

[rishtonlad]

I was in Gainsborough a few weeks back and they seemed to have no Sunday or evening buses.