Seatfrog fee refund when service is declassified

[nitten_travell]

Evening all,

On Sunday I travelled on the 1147 Carlisle to Euston, having connected there on a service from Edinburgh. En route to Carlisle I sensed that the 1147 would be full as the services either side of it had been cancelled, and bought a SeatFrog upgrade to Standard Premium. The train was indeed so full that it was declassified from Lancaster; some poor souls - armed with, they thought, perfectly valid Standard Premium bookings - had to stand from Preston to London.

Avanti customer service have been speedy and today I received an email saying they would refund the upgrade (by cheque!), but not the seatfrog fee. I am conscious that in these parts few are fans of the seatfrog fee - but is this still on Avanti to refund, or do I claim from Seatfrog? Their site suggests in such circumstances it's Avanti: https://help.seatfrog.com/hc/en-gb/articles/360001296815-Can-I-get-a-refund-on-my-Upgrade

 

[AlterEgo]

Avanti aren't responsible for refunding Seatfrog's platform fee, only the ticket or upgrade. If you pay money to Seatfrog (or any other agency or retailer) to buy a ticket or upgrade, it isn't on the train company to refund these.

Seatfrog's site is actually silent about their platform fee, but I rather suspect if anyone is to refund it, it would be them.

 

[furlong]

Did you fill out this form?

https://help.seatfrog.com/hc/en-gb/requests/new?ticket_form_id=8857996746511

Declassified is one of the options it lets you select.

 

[ainsworth74]

Did you fill out this form?

https://help.seatfrog.com/hc/en-gb/requests/new?ticket_form_id=8857996746511

Declassified is one of the options it lets you select.

But if you follow through to the help page linked it goes on to say:

My train was declassified


There may be times when the rail operator needs to declassify a train service. This pesky situation happens when First Class seating is opened up to all ticket holders and the First Class service is withdrawn. Typically, this happens after earlier trains have been cancelled or are seriously delayed. If you find yourself with a Seatfrog upgrade and your train is declassified, you'll need to contact the rail operator to discuss a refund.

https://help.seatfrog.com/hc/en-gb/articles/360001296815-Can-I-get-a-refund-on-my-Upgrade

 

[ChilliSauce]

Invoke Credit Card Charge back from SeatFrog ? You get a full refund and it's then up to Seat Frog to argue with Avanti if Avanti need to pay SeatFrog ...

 

[AlterEgo]

Invoke Credit Card Charge back from SeatFrog ? You get a full refund and it's then up to Seat Frog to argue with Avanti if Avanti need to pay SeatFrog ...

Fraudulent, unless you make only a partial chargeback for the £3 or whatever you say you're owed. A chargeback is unlikely to be successful because Seatfrog charged to arrange the upgrade and provided it as per their contract. They are not at fault.

 

[nitten_travell]

Fraudulent, unless you make only a partial chargeback for the £3 or whatever you say you're owed. A chargeback is unlikely to be successful because Seatfrog charged to arrange the upgrade and provided it as per their contract. They are not at fault.

Hmm, when you put it like that I suppose maybe I am not actually entitled to that fee refunded. As you say, Seatfrog upheld their side of the agreement and provided me with an upgrade. It's not their fault the train was declassified.

 

[furlong]

You should be entitled to it: If they don't return it, get the regulators involved. Could you have purchased the upgrade in any other way without paying that fee? No - from a consumer perspective this fee is a fiction as it was simply part of the cost of the upgrade and whether or not they split up what you pay into separate pieces (for tax reasons or otherwise) is of no concern to you. How do you know the train company doesn't also pay commission or other fees to seatfrog? If they do, why do they bother telling you only about one part of the money you pay that they are keeping and not another part?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Invoke Credit Card Charge back from SeatFrog ? You get a full refund and it's then up to Seat Frog to argue with Avanti if Avanti need to pay SeatFrog ...

You can't do that if Avanti have already refunded you the upgrade fee, because that's double-dipping.

I'm not sure if one can raise a partial chargeback just for the Seatfrog booking fee?

Seatfrog charged to arrange the upgrade and provided it as per their contract. They are not at fault.

I disagree here. Seatfrog are the exclusive designated retailer for Avanti and their booking fee is not optional. Seatfrog are not selling a separate service. Their booking fee is an intrinsic part of the overall purchase of a service which was not delivered.

 

[AlterEgo]

Seatfrog aren't the only retailer of upgrades, but they are usually the cheapest. Not the same thing.

if you use Trainline to book Splitsave or the forum site to split your tickets so it's cheaper and pay a fee for it, no, the fee isn't included in delay repay, or any compensation under the NRCoT. And it certainly wouldn't be on the TOC to refund it, even in the case of disruption.

It's very clear a separate booking fee is at least ostensibly a fee for arranging the tickets. This argument has not come up before - does anyone else really think booking fees should be part of Delay Repay or declassification compensation? What about Advance tickets and the £5 change of journey fee where the new train subsequently gets cancelled? "Oh this is the only way I can change my ticket, refund it then" - no?

 

[Snow1964]

Fraudulent, unless you make only a partial chargeback for the £3 or whatever you say you're owed. A chargeback is unlikely to be successful because Seatfrog charged to arrange the upgrade and provided it as per their contract. They are not at fault.

No, think there is a misinterpretation of card chargeback here, the product you bought was not supplied / fulfilled by the retailer. You are normally entitled to chargeback the unfulfilled element.

You have a valid claim against the retailer, it is up to them if they choose to act as a broker or middleman and contract with another party. Not your problem if they opt to recover what they paid to another company (that is a separate commercial contract that Op have no sight of).

The complicating factor here is the end supplier has already reimbursed part of the cost, but you never had a direct contract with them for 100% of what you bought, so in a way it is an ex gratia gift from them (even if their policies offer a credit or refund, unless these terms were clearly part of your purchase agreement). Even though Op received funds from an organisation that they had no direct contract with, doesn't mean claiming balance off the retailer would be fraudulent.

It's really up to the two organisations to sort it between themselves, not expect a customer to have to make multiple claims for parts of what was spent.

If you had received two invoices, one from Seatfrog, one from Avanti, each with their share, then you would claim off both. If you only got one invoice/receipt, then only claim full amount from the supplier who invoiced/receipted you. (for clarity if a single invoice splits total clearly stating breakdown then that is ok).

But principle still holds, a booking fee that doesn't deliver 100% of the booking is questionable about being non refundable under consumer law, it's not sold on a best endeavours basis.

 

[AlterEgo]

No, think there is a misinterpretation of card chargeback here, the product you bought was not supplied / fulfilled by the retailer.

You can't claim a total chargeback if you've already had a refund.

You have a valid claim against the retailer, it is up to them if they choose to act as a broker or middleman and contract with another party. Not your problem if they opt to recover what they paid to another company (that is a separate commercial contract that Op have no sight of).

In this case we are talking about the OP being downgraded midway through a journey, not a failure to deliver the service altogether (eg: abandoned journey and return to origin). The remedy from this is not from the retailer in law but the service provider. What will you suggest next - delay repay comes from the retailer too?

The complicating factor here is the end supplier has already reimbursed part of the cost, but you never had a direct contract with them for 100% of what you bought, so in a way it is an ex gratia gift from them.

No it isn't. It is a clear entitlement as per the NRCoT. That is what they are due.

Even though Op received funds from an organisation that they had no direct contract with, doesn't mean claiming off the retailer would be fraudulent.

It would be if it was for the full cost, because the OP has been refunded the majority of what they paid already. You can make a partial chargeback and it is very easy to do. That is how you make a claim when you order 10 things and only 9 turn up, for example.

It's really up to the two organisations to sort it between themselves, not expect a customer to have to make multiple claims for parts of what was spent.

(The booking fee is not refundable here anyway!)

If you had received two invoices, one from Seatfrog, one from Avanti, each with their share, then you would claim off both. If you only got one invoice/receipt, then only claim full amount from the supplier who invoiced/receipted you.

No, wrong, as per NRCoT and Seatfrog's own guidance, in this case the refund of the upgrade comes from the TOC. That is the contract.

 

[DarloRich]

My friend got a full refund from seatfrog when the Manchester > Cardiff train he was booked on ran as a unit rather than a loco hauled service.

he applied on line and added a screen shot of the TfW journey checker page showing the change - he said it was smooth and easy ( after he blamed me for promising him a fancy train and a nice breakfast!)

 

[island]

No, think there is a misinterpretation of card chargeback here, the product you bought was not supplied / fulfilled by the retailer. You are normally entitled to chargeback the unfulfilled element.

You have a valid claim against the retailer, it is up to them if they choose to act as a broker or middleman and contract with another party. Not your problem if they opt to recover what they paid to another company (that is a separate commercial contract that Op have no sight of).

The complicating factor here is the end supplier has already reimbursed part of the cost, but you never had a direct contract with them for 100% of what you bought, so in a way it is an ex gratia gift from them (even if their policies offer a credit or refund, unless these terms were clearly part of your purchase agreement). Even though Op received funds from an organisation that they had no direct contract with, doesn't mean claiming balance off the retailer would be fraudulent.

This analysis would be correct in the context of the supply of goods where a wholesaler sells goods to a retailer who then sells the goods to a consumer acting as principal. But for services, the "my contract is with who I paid" line doesn't work that way.

In the purchase of an upgrade, the passenger contracts with the train operating company. SeatFrog acts as an agent (intermediary) to arrange that contract. This is explained in sections 4 and 9 of SeatFrog's T&Cs. There is no "retailer" in the arrangement at all, only the passenger, the TOC, and the agent. It is the TOC which is liable to provide the service to the customer (not to the agent) and it is the TOC which is answerable for any breach of contract.

All that being said, the price paid for the upgrade, including "platform fee", is the price of the upgrade, and if the upgrade is not provided, the full amount is refundable by the TOC, both under part 1 chapter 4 of the Consumer Rights Act, and under the equitable principle of "total failure of consideration". I have received full refunds from Avanti in similar previous circumstances, and that is what should happen here.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's very clear a separate booking fee is at least ostensibly a fee for arranging the tickets.

Is it?

Trainsplit only levy a booking fee if they find you a cheaper ticket. The service you have purchased from them is the split ticket search. Trainline fees are slightly different (and actually they probably should be subject to refund where a service is not provided) but they are optional in that you can use a different supplier.

Delay Repay is irrelevant to the conversation as that is contractual compensation for the delayed provision of a service, it is not a refund.

From who else can you purchase an upgrade by way of auction (which is a separate product to a normal upgrade)? Can you purchase an upgrade by way of auction (which is a separate product to a normal upgrade) without paying the Seatfrog fee?

The answer is clearly that you cannot purchase the auction upgrade product without using Seatfrog and you cannot purchase it without paying the Seatfrog fee. Therefore the Seatfrog fee is an intrinsic part of the overall service being purchased and, therefore, should be refunded in full where that service is not delivered.

I’d agree with @island that it should be refunded by the TOC as the contracting party which failed to deliver the service which was purchased.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

From who else can you purchase an upgrade by way of auction (which is a separate product to a normal upgrade)?

Is it really a separate product to a normal upgrade? Let's draw a parallel (although we all know that parallels don't always work): I have just acquired a mixed lot by - as it happens - auction*. I am interested in and will retain one part of the lot, but intend to sell on another part of the lot (some cymbals) by putting them on eBay. As I'm confident of how much the cymbals are worth, I will be selling them for a fixed price.

So as I am now selling the cymbals for a fixed price, are they somehow a different product from them when I bought them by auction?

*This is actually true and not just made up for an example. And so is the fact that I will be selling on the cymbals.

 

[AlterEgo]

From who else can you purchase an upgrade by way of auction (which is a separate product to a normal upgrade)?

The method of selling the ticket is immaterial, what is being sold here is an upgrade, which is available elsewhere.

This is like arguing a car bought at an auction for £5000 is different to the same car bought at a dealership for £6000.

 

[Tetchytyke]

So as I am now selling the cymbals for a fixed price, are they somehow a different product from them when I bought them by auction?

If you took the person’s money and then failed to supply the cymbals, the person would be refunded all their payment, including any auction fees or PayPal fees they were charged.

The method of selling the ticket is immaterial, what is being sold here is an upgrade, which is available elsewhere.

This is like arguing a car bought at an auction for £5000 is different to the same car bought at a dealership for £6000.

A Seatfrog upgrade (either auction or fixed price) is a separate ticket type to other types of upgrade. It is a different product. It is only sold by Seatfrog and they charge a mandatory service fee.

You are seemingly attempting to argue that all ticket types are the same product when that is clearly not the case. Just as an Anytime First Class single is not the same product as an Advance First Class single, a Seatfrog upgrade is not the same as a Weekend First upgrade.

The Seatfrog fee is mandatory if you wish to buy the Seatfrog product. Fine, but when it goes wrong and the service isn’t delivered then the whole consideration is to be refunded.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The Seatfrog fee is mandatory if you wish to buy the Seatfrog product.

I'll duck out here, but just to note that arguing that the Seatfrog product is unique because '(i)t is only sold by Seatfrog and they charge a mandatory service fee' is rather different from arguing that it's unique because 'From who else can you purchase an upgrade by way of auction (which is a separate product to a normal upgrade)?' - which is the point I was querying.

 

[Sealink]

Morally (haha, remember morals?) SeatFrog should refund you if the service you paid for was made free for everyone.

 

[tram21]

When I had my TfW train declassified, I requested the refund through them. The refund is actually done by Seatfrog, but they request it after confirming your entitlement. They ask for the refund on your behalf.

They did include the platform fee in this too!

 

[Adam Williams]

Trainsplit only levy a booking fee if they find you a cheaper ticket. The service you have purchased from them is the split ticket search

However, TrainSplit also chooses to refund the split ticket search fee if a journey is affected by disruption, such that customers get all their money back if they needed to abandon their travel plans. There are also a few other circumstances where it would get returned because it's the right thing to do for the customer.