Beyond Oxford and Cambridge - other comparable darlings?

[cle]

So, thinking about all of the investment into Oxford and Cambridge and the incessant threads on here - yes also the arc and growth at Bicester, MK and Wixams/Bedford/Universal - but predominantly I am thinking here about the holistic picture of smaller, older cities which are punching about their population size weight in terms of economic activity, atttractiveness to live, and thus seeing or needing rail growth.

If people don't want London - or Edinburgh or Manchester - Oxford and Cambridge have become great examples of where tourist/international reputation and appeal, academia and pleasant environments have attracted top tier jobs and development, which otherwise would have probably gone to London. Reading arguably another but it's not the same feel as a lifestyle 'alt' - and it has had its big investment.

Which are the other potential darlings in this mould, where we are seeing this type of growth and appeal - for people who don't want to live in London necessarily, or a big city - but are highly education/paid/skilled? And that could see a lot of economic and rail growth.

Four spring to mind as potential additions or successors to this wave: Exeter, Bristol, Chester and York. Curious to hear others' thoughts and builds on this topic.

Exeter - smaller side but well liked, and it's the biggest thing for a good distance. Sees higher frequency rail (Exmouth line) inbound which work well, and new/addl services in the area have been very successful. Met Office comes to mind as a high-skill feature, could there be more? What new rail activity is coming?

Bristol - edge case as it's much bigger than these classic places. But it has done well economically in the last 10 years, it has grown and from a rail POV, FINALLY a lot of investment is coming to fruition - thinking Portishead, Ashley Down, Henbury, Salisbury services, and future additional services in the region, and to Cardiff and Birmingham. Quadding and the Temple Meads work too. And growth at Parkway and Filton. But is it more of a Manchester (becoming a standalone big city? very mixed economy) - or is it a larger version of the same (a London academia-alternative that has good jobs and isn't huge) ?

Chester - interesting one. Less on the academia and science park side, but Cheshire writ large has a fair bit, eg Siemens. And there are some big financial company sites. Could Chester have potential for bio/tech/science parks? From the rail side, the last decade has seen the permanence of the direct London services, new services to Leeds/faster Manchester, the Halton Curve bringing more options (both ways) - and future expansion of various routes. It's a nice place to be, and a regional hub for a wide hinterland - could be a great place to focus investment and commuting - has rail lines in many directions and some station capacity (more if Merseyrail gets its own platforms)

York is of course already a huge rail hub. It's wired, many platforms - and has services in every direction. It has business activity, it has tourism, it has a good university and is a pleasant place to be. Could it become something like a Cambridge?


Thoughts on this as a whole, economically as well as from the rail POV? Elephant in the room being that many of these places are also great for more periodical London office-days, and remote working - so I am sure a lot of the growth has been through that too.

 

[Topological]

Chester is an interesting case. I suspect the presence of Manchester and Liverpool provides the academic grounding, whilst the desire to be away from those cities gives the quality of life.

Lancaster would be another to add to the list, has the university but fails the London link. If you wanted an outside bet as a property developer Lancaster may feature though.

 

[The exile]

Bristol - edge case as it's much bigger than these classic places. But it has done well economically in the last 10 years, it has grown and from a rail POV, FINALLY a lot of investment is coming to fruition - thinking Portishead, Ashley Down, Henbury, Salisbury services, and future additional services in the region, and to Cardiff and Birmingham. Quadding and the Temple Meads work too. And growth at Parkway and Filton. But is it more of a Manchester (becoming a standalone big city? very mixed economy) - or is it a larger version of the same (a London academia-alternative that has good jobs and isn't huge) ?

Interestingly - it has managed to achieve that status despite having amongst the worst traffic congestion in the country. Getting things done is made harder by the fact that a lot of the built up area (and almost all the expansion room) is in neighbouring local authority areas (in places, the.seams burst in the 1930s)

 

[I'm here now]

So, thinking about all of the investment into Oxford and Cambridge and the incessant threads on here - yes also the arc and growth at Bicester, MK and Wixams/Bedford/Universal - but predominantly I am thinking here about the holistic picture of smaller, older cities which are punching about their population size weight in terms of economic activity, atttractiveness to live, and thus seeing or needing rail growth.

If people don't want London - or Edinburgh or Manchester - Oxford and Cambridge have become great examples of where tourist/international reputation and appeal, academia and pleasant environments have attracted top tier jobs and development, which otherwise would have probably gone to London. Reading arguably another but it's not the same feel as a lifestyle 'alt' - and it has had its big investment.

Which are the other potential darlings in this mould, where we are seeing this type of growth and appeal - for people who don't want to live in London necessarily, or a big city - but are highly education/paid/skilled? And that could see a lot of economic and rail growth.

Four spring to mind as potential additions or successors to this wave: Exeter, Bristol, Chester and York. Curious to hear others' thoughts and builds on this topic.

Exeter - smaller side but well liked, and it's the biggest thing for a good distance. Sees higher frequency rail (Exmouth line) inbound which work well, and new/addl services in the area have been very successful. Met Office comes to mind as a high-skill feature, could there be more? What new rail activity is coming?

Bristol - edge case as it's much bigger than these classic places. But it has done well economically in the last 10 years, it has grown and from a rail POV, FINALLY a lot of investment is coming to fruition - thinking Portishead, Ashley Down, Henbury, Salisbury services, and future additional services in the region, and to Cardiff and Birmingham. Quadding and the Temple Meads work too. And growth at Parkway and Filton. But is it more of a Manchester (becoming a standalone big city? very mixed economy) - or is it a larger version of the same (a London academia-alternative that has good jobs and isn't huge) ?

Chester - interesting one. Less on the academia and science park side, but Cheshire writ large has a fair bit, eg Siemens. And there are some big financial company sites. Could Chester have potential for bio/tech/science parks? From the rail side, the last decade has seen the permanence of the direct London services, new services to Leeds/faster Manchester, the Halton Curve bringing more options (both ways) - and future expansion of various routes. It's a nice place to be, and a regional hub for a wide hinterland - could be a great place to focus investment and commuting - has rail lines in many directions and some station capacity (more if Merseyrail gets its own platforms)

York is of course already a huge rail hub. It's wired, many platforms - and has services in every direction. It has business activity, it has tourism, it has a good university and is a pleasant place to be. Could it become something like a Cambridge?


Thoughts on this as a whole, economically as well as from the rail POV? Elephant in the room being that many of these places are also great for more periodical London office-days, and remote working - so I am sure a lot of the growth has been through that too.

As long as you live at one of the main stations…

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Bristol - edge case as it's much bigger than these classic places. But it has done well economically in the last 10 years, it has grown and from a rail POV, FINALLY a lot of investment is coming to fruition - thinking Portishead, Ashley Down, Henbury, Salisbury services, and future additional services in the region, and to Cardiff and Birmingham. Quadding and the Temple Meads work too. And growth at Parkway and Filton. But is it more of a Manchester (becoming a standalone big city? very mixed economy) - or is it a larger version of the same (a London academia-alternative that has good jobs and isn't huge) ?

Chester - interesting one. Less on the academia and science park side, but Cheshire writ large has a fair bit, eg Siemens. And there are some big financial company sites. Could Chester have potential for bio/tech/science parks? From the rail side, the last decade has seen the permanence of the direct London services, new services to Leeds/faster Manchester, the Halton Curve bringing more options (both ways) - and future expansion of various routes. It's a nice place to be, and a regional hub for a wide hinterland - could be a great place to focus investment and commuting - has rail lines in many directions and some station capacity (more if Merseyrail gets its own platforms)

If you're going to do Chester (small city on the edge of (two) bigger ones), you should probably be doing Bath as well as Bristol's smaller sibling. Unless you already lump Bath in with Bristol - which is unlikely to be popular with Bath residents.

Thinking further, cases could be made for Aylesbury and Beverley: unlike any of the suggestions so far they don't have universities, but they're medium sized towns with a fair quality of life (disclaimer: occasional visitor to Beverley for holidays, grew up some 50 years ago in Slough so Aylesbury was always on the edge of my radar: so maybe things look different for people who have more knowledge) that could benefit from increased rail connectivity.

 

[brad465]

Exeter - smaller side but well liked, and it's the biggest thing for a good distance. Sees higher frequency rail (Exmouth line) inbound which work well, and new/addl services in the area have been very successful. Met Office comes to mind as a high-skill feature, could there be more? What new rail activity is coming?

Bristol - edge case as it's much bigger than these classic places. But it has done well economically in the last 10 years, it has grown and from a rail POV, FINALLY a lot of investment is coming to fruition - thinking Portishead, Ashley Down, Henbury, Salisbury services, and future additional services in the region, and to Cardiff and Birmingham. Quadding and the Temple Meads work too. And growth at Parkway and Filton. But is it more of a Manchester (becoming a standalone big city? very mixed economy) - or is it a larger version of the same (a London academia-alternative that has good jobs and isn't huge) ?

Bristol-Exeter also has two major projects in the middle; Hinkley Point C and the Gravity Battery factory, both near Bridgwater. These, on top of the cities mentioned, mean the corridor could certainly do with an enhanced frequency of service and some form of EMU/BEMU introduction to facilitate this corridor's potential. (Being in Taunton though I am also biased here)

 

[Horizon22]

Which are the other potential darlings in this mould, where we are seeing this type of growth and appeal - for people who don't want to live in London necessarily, or a big city - but are highly education/paid/skilled? And that could see a lot of economic and rail growth.

Four spring to mind as potential additions or successors to this wave: Exeter, Bristol, Chester and York. Curious to hear others' thoughts and builds on this topic.

It would seem odd to have Bristol on this list, the 7/8th (dependent on source) largest city in the UK.

 

[Topological]

Bristol-Exeter also has two major projects in the middle; Hinkley Point C and the Gravity Battery factory, both near Bridgwater. These, on top of the cities mentioned, mean the corridor could certainly do with an enhanced frequency of service and some form of EMU/BEMU introduction to facilitate this corridor's potential. (Being in Taunton though I am also biased here)

Better services on the corridor are needed, but so is work to the M5.

Even just making more carriages available on the CrossCountry services that do run would help.

Extending more Weston Super Mare terminators would help too, though that would mean improving the junctions on and off the loop.

 

[Brubulus]

Bristol-Exeter also has two major projects in the middle; Hinkley Point C and the Gravity Battery factory, both near Bridgwater. These, on top of the cities mentioned, mean the corridor could certainly do with an enhanced frequency of service and some form of EMU/BEMU introduction to facilitate this corridor's potential. (Being in Taunton though I am also biased here)

Combining this with the thread on improving transport in the South West, a 1tph service from Bristol to Minehead could provide the 2tph Bridgwater realistically needs.

 

[fishwomp]

Hull.

 

[Severnia333]

Bath, Worcester, Salisbury. Latter two are growing and sit on junctions so could probably support a suburban station or two if not anything Exeter level.

 

[bspahh]

... predominantly I am thinking here about the holistic picture of smaller, older cities which are punching about their population size weight in terms of economic activity, atttractiveness to live, and thus seeing or needing rail growth.

Ely is a small city, with a big old cathedral, and busy rail connections, which are getting busier.

Abingdon is bigger, but it isn't a city, it doesn't have a cathedral, or much of a rail link.

Both are satelites for bigger cities, with Waitrose, Tescos, a Cinema and swimming pool, and with shops that sell everything that you need and not much that you want.

 

[Uncle Buck]

If you're going to do Chester (small city on the edge of (two) bigger ones), you should probably be doing Bath as well as Bristol's smaller sibling. Unless you already lump Bath in with Bristol - which is unlikely to be popular with Bath residents.

Thinking further, cases could be made for Aylesbury and Beverley: unlike any of the suggestions so far they don't have universities, but they're medium sized towns with a fair quality of life (disclaimer: occasional visitor to Beverley for holidays, grew up some 50 years ago in Slough so Aylesbury was always on the edge of my radar: so maybe things look different for people who have more knowledge) that could benefit from increased rail connectivity.

I know both Chester and Bath well. Bath feels highly integrated to Bristol, while obviously having its own identity. Chester feels highly different from Liverpool and Manchester; it “faces” Wales and the countryside. Can’t put it more eloquently than that! Just my tuppenceworth.

 

[PTR 444]

I would nominate Salisbury and Winchester, both stunning cathedral cities in the south of England. The former has outstanding public transport provision for a city of its size, while the latter is in a very prosperous location with its road links (M3, A31, A34) and proximity to the South Downs National Park.

 

[rapmastaj]

I know both Chester and Bath well. Bath feels highly integrated to Bristol, while obviously having its own identity. Chester feels highly different from Liverpool and Manchester; it “faces” Wales and the countryside. Can’t put it more eloquently than that! Just my tuppenceworth.

But a bunch of Wiltshire/Somerset towns like Trowbridge, Frome, Bradford on Avon, etc, look to Bath as their nearest city, more than to Bristol.

 

[cle]

I did think about Bath, but it doesn’t quite seem to have the jobs or the youthful activity. Lots of rich retirees and long standing Londoner super-commuting… bit of a Harrogate. But it’s a flavour of this, for sure.

And yes Bristol did feel an outlier. But it’s finally getting its MetroWest stuff going and the TM quarter is booming, so it felt more in that science park type of category.

Lancaster is interesting. It’s quite far north and services are long and thin. But might be an interesting version of this, if a company was brave enough to start up!

 

[Jaydubya]

Darlington is getting a fair bit of HM government investment (economic campus) plus has all the railway history and beautiful countryside to the west (Teesdale) and southeast (N Yorks Moors)

 

[rapmastaj]

Bath is a University city, it's full of students as well as the tourists and shoppers. Very different to Harrogate which is a much smaller town and more of a wealthy Leeds satellite.

As for Lancaster, it's a fantastic place to live, especially being so close to the Lake District. Again with a good university. I'm sure it will do well.

 

[The Mercian]

In the instances you give the answer isnt heavy rail its metro style light rail. You only have to look across the channel at the success light rail has on the continent for small city wealth and prosperity. The answer is staring us in the face but the question always seems to be “but where will I park?”

 

[Magdalia]

Exeter - smaller side but well liked, and it's the biggest thing for a good distance. Sees higher frequency rail (Exmouth line) inbound which work well, and new/addl services in the area have been very successful. Met Office comes to mind as a high-skill feature, could there be more? What new rail activity is coming?

Exeter is possibly the nearest to what you are looking for, and it has already made a lot of progress with rail. There is some discussion already here:

How would you spend £1Bn to improve rail transport in the SW peninsular

Sparked from the various discussions on Tavistock, which for me seems to get all of the discussion, despite it being an expensive way to connect a fairly small town to the rail network. In my opinion, there are lots of more worthy ways to upgrade the railway network in the south-west...

www.railforums.co.uk

Exeter is also on the New Towns Taskforce list see here:

Marlcombe, East Devon​

The new town proposal in East Devon would be located only a few miles from the centre of Exeter on a standalone greenfield site in the heart of the Clyst Valley, to the south of the A30 and Exeter Airport. With potential for future expansion into brownfield sites in Exeter, this new town for South West England would capitalise on, and boost, already impressive growth in the region, with the capacity to deliver at least 10,000 homes across 500 hectares.

Ely is a small city, with a big old cathedral, and busy rail connections, which are getting busier.


Both are satelites for bigger cities

Ely is definitely a satellite not a star.

Bath feels highly integrated to Bristol, while obviously having its own identity.

I'm less sure about whether Bath is a satellite of Bristol, or whether they are binary stars. The same question could be asked of York with Leeds and Durham with Newcastle.

Worcester

Worcester is also on the New Towns Taskforce list:

Worcestershire Parkway​

The new town proposal at Worcestershire Parkway is a 1,130 hectare greenfield site based around an existing train station located to the south-east of Worcester, in Wychavon. There are currently plans for 10,000 homes on this site, but new town designation has the potential to bolster the speed and scale of delivery. New town designation would not only boost this delivery but also ensure quality of placemaking and sustainability by adopting the New Towns Taskforce placemaking principles.

Though is Worcester just a satellite of Birmingham?

And, flying the East Anglian flag, how about Norwich?

 

[rapmastaj]

In the instances you give the answer isnt heavy rail its metro style light rail. You only have to look across the channel at the success light rail has on the continent for small city wealth and prosperity. The answer is staring us in the face but the question always seems to be “but where will I park?”

For sure, most UK cities are crying out for a decent tram network. Heavy rail will be vital in certain places, but light rail and trams will be more likely to be transformative for urban travel across the board. Not that it's an either or.

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I'm less sure about whether Bath is a satellite of Bristol, or whether they are binary stars. The same question could be asked of York with Leeds and Durham with Newcastle.

They do share strong connections of course. In the end the semantics of it don't matter that much.

 

[The exile]

I'm less sure about whether Bath is a satellite of Bristol, or whether they are binary stars.

Binary stars - though clearly of different magnitudes. The peak hour flows are very definitely not one-way.

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Bath is a University city, it's full of students as well as the tourists and shoppers.

Population increases by approx 50% in term-time

 

[fandroid]

Bournemouth ought to fit your model, but 2hrs + from London by train and transport links west aren't great , whatever mode you're using. It does have an active airport though.

 

[cle]

And, flying the East Anglian flag, how about Norwich

I did think about Norwich - it’s nicer than people probably realize and does have some stuff going on. Biggest thing for miles for many.

But it’s incredibly isolated really. I can’t see a ton of inward investment there.

 

[Magdalia]

I did think about Norwich - it’s nicer than people probably realize and does have some stuff going on. Biggest thing for miles for many.

But it’s incredibly isolated really. I can’t see a ton of inward investment there.

Norwich is roughly the same distance from London as Birmingham and Bristol, and much closer than Exeter. Norwich is also the biggest city on the "cheap" side of Cambridge, similar to how Exeter is in relation to Bristol. I don't see why is can't aspire to do something like what Exeter is doing.

 

[Jaydubya]

Norwich is roughly the same distance from London as Birmingham and Bristol, and much closer than Exeter. Norwich is also the biggest city on the "cheap" side of Cambridge, similar to how Exeter is in relation to Bristol. I don't see why is can't aspire to do something like what Exeter is doing.

Norwich is an excellent shout. Some high value businesses (financial services, agritechnogy) plus university and countryside. Also has a small network of secondary/commuter routes serving it - Yarmouth, Lowestoft, Sheringham and Cambridge in addition to the London service. Until the 18th century the second city of England!

It’s really important to not underestimate the value of place. People, visitors and businesses need to want to be there for it to be successful.

 

[Iskra]

Rotherham does quite well for aspirational schemes: Tram-Train and the upcoming new station.

Skipton does well too, having a frequent service with good capacity and London trains.

The Harrogate line services have also been improved a lot.

However, despite what people like to believe, isn’t the reality that most places that have a rail service, currently have their best-ever? (Aside from a few oddities like Brigg).

 

[yorksrob]

Lancaster would be another to add to the list, has the university but fails the London link. If you wanted an outside bet as a property developer Lancaster may feature though.

I would agree, Lancaster definitely punches above its weight and is a popular leisure destination for the surrounding towns.

It might not be the largest railway hub, but has good services in all directions.

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It would seem odd to have Bristol on this list, the 7/8th (dependent on source) largest city in the UK.

Indeed. It's one of the core cities.

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Hull.

Hull has so much going for it in terms of culture, sport, architecture etc. It ought to be on the list.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Norwich is an excellent shout. Some high value businesses (financial services, agritechnogy) plus university and countryside. Also has a small network of secondary/commuter routes serving it - Yarmouth, Lowestoft, Sheringham and Cambridge in addition to the London service. Until the 18th century the second city of England!

It’s really important to not underestimate the value of place. People, visitors and businesses need to want to be there for it to be successful.

Hull has so much going for it in terms of culture, sport, architecture etc. It ought to be on the list.

I would agree, Lancaster definitely punches above its weight and is a popular leisure destination for the surrounding towns.

It might not be the largest railway hub, but has good services in all directions.

The challenge for all of these is making 'being a bit isolated ' into a benefit (which being 'the largest place for miles around ' can be).

 

[peterprice]

I'm going to say Swansea. On the door step of the Gower with a growing cultural/foodie scene, and a university that seems to be doing well. The council have invested quite a lot into regenerating- e.g the recently opened arena. If (and obviously its a big IF) the Swansea Bay lagoon happened, you could see the city being very successful. I think you'd need a bit of vision however to build a Cardiff/Valleys style Swansea Bay metro.