Realistic outlook for new lines in London

[Alxxxs]

Hi everyone, I know that this is a very vast topic but I just want to align on how bad things are as of today

I want to understand your outlook on the key 3 current projects in London: DLR to Thamesmead, West London Orbital and Bakerloo line extension, as well as a few more speculative ones. I propose the following categories depending on when you would expect the official go ahead: 2020s, 2030s, 2040s and “not in our lifetime”

The list of projects is as follows:
1. DLR to Thamesmead
2. WLO
3. BLE
4. Crossrail 2
5. Southern rail approach to Heathrow
6. Croxley link
7. Northern Line extension to Clapham Junction
8. Tramlink to Sutton

I would arrange them like this:
2020s: 1, 2, 3
2030s: 4, 5, 6, 7, 8

I appreciate that my view is quite optimistic. Please feel free to add more projects or just shoot everything down if you think that everything apart from the DLR extension is highly speculative. It would be great if you can reference specific political/economic justifications for the budget allocation.

 

[JJKiller]

Some extra things I’d like to see include:
-Victoria line extension southbound beyond Brixton;
-Splitting of the Northern line (TfL want this too, but it’s a long-term goal);
-If Crossrail 2 is ever built, then the taking over of Thameslink by TfL and bringing it under the Crossrail brand;
-DLR extension westbound from Bank (maybe to the old Jubilee line platforms at Charing Cross, or north towards Euston/St Pancras?).

Some of these were planned at one point or another but have since been shelved. It’s more of a wish list than anything else!

 

[Sad Sprinter]

There really needs to be an Underground Line from Brixton down to Croydon. I won’t say the Victoria because it faces the wrong way. But maybe something underneath Kingsway up to Euston. Of course Holborn is pretty cramped down there these days.

 

[bluenoxid]

To clarify your thread, date that go ahead is given is a broad timescale. I understand that Thamesmead is being discussed but it could still have several further decision points before any construction teams start on site in the following two years.

I would rule out Croxley rail link as a contender. It has struggled to move forwards over the past decade. If it isn’t realising economic growth for something or housing, it won’t be taken forward.

 

[Mikey C]

Croxley isn't in London either. London isn't going to spend money it can barely afford on a scheme that primarily benefits Herts, while Herts doesn't have the money...

 

[aron2smith]

Croxley isn't in London either. London isn't going to spend money it can barely afford on a scheme that primarily benefits Herts, while Herts doesn't have the money...

It would've benefitted Harrow and a whole chunk of NW London if each county would just look beyond their fence! Today's parochial short-sightedness would mean the Metropolitan wouldn't have close to the extent it does, despite the obvious benefits of this line and improving it.

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I also wonder if formerly proposed tram and light rail schemes would be considered here.
Eg Cross River Tram, Greenwich Waterfront Transit, West London Tram, any extensions to Tramlink or DLR

And outside London but in the commuter belt, KenEx and Hertfordshire Essex Rapid Transit.

I'd say there is some overlap here as almost every rail improvement or new line in London would almost certainly serve an area outside London too or connect to a system outside London.

I think in London, Crossrail 2 would have the biggest impact, with that we can extend the Northern Line to Clapham Junction, finally split the line into 2 and of course, 4 track the West Anglia Main Line.

Stuff like West London Orbital and the DLR and Bakerloo Line extension should be things that happen anyway.

The real priority should be improving connectivity in Outer London boroughs like Havering.

If Heathrow is here to stay, it needs a Western Rail Approach too.

 

[Cambus731]

How feasible would it be to extend the DLR from Bank to the Jubilee Line tunnels under The Strand? So that the DLR could use the disused Jubilee Line platforms at Charing Cross? Presumably the tunnels would need re-boring to accommodate DLR trains?

 

[JonathanH]

How feasible would it be to extend the DLR from Bank to the Jubilee Line tunnels under The Strand? So that the DLR could use the disused Jubilee Line platforms at Charing Cross? Presumably the tunnels would need re-boring to accommodate DLR trains?

The platforms at Bank don't point in the right direction. It also would just parallel the District Line from Monument to Embankment, not really offering any additional connectivity.

 

[30907]

It would've benefitted Harrow and a whole chunk of NW London if each county would just look beyond their fence!

Yes, the boundary is arbitrary, but could you explain the benefits more specifically?

 

[swt_passenger]

How feasible would it be to extend the DLR from Bank to the Jubilee Line tunnels under The Strand? So that the DLR could use the disused Jubilee Line platforms at Charing Cross? Presumably the tunnels would need re-boring to accommodate DLR trains?

Not feasible at all. There have been numerous previous threads suggesting this, but every time it’s been explained the alignment is all wrong at Bank.

 

[LLivery]

1. DLR to Thamesmead - 2030s
2. WLO - 2030s
3. BLE - Mid 2030s - early 2040s
4. Crossrail 2 - 2050s ha!
5. Southern rail approach to Heathrow: Elizabeth to Staines late 2030s; full on Southern access project: whenever the expansion happens
6. Croxley link - never, unfortunately, unless Herts find cash.
7. Northern Line extension to Clapham Junction - 2050s, if the split happens.
8. Tramlink to Sutton - can't decide.

I'll add
9. DLR Barking Riverside & Dagenham Dock - I can't see how doubling housing for this area can only rely on the Goblin and I think TfL are going to have to wake up on this. So dare I say, late 2030s-mid 2040s.
10. Barking Riverside - Abbey Wood - 2050s. It's bloody obvious and never should've been built on a viaduct
11. Parisian style orbital Tram lines - 2050s onwards
12. CrossRiver Trams - 2050-60s (should've happened a decade ago).
13. Elizabeth Line Dartford - 2050s

There really needs to be an Underground Line from Brixton down to Croydon. I won’t say the Victoria because it faces the wrong way. But maybe something underneath Kingsway up to Euston. Of course Holborn is pretty cramped down there these days.

I always wanted Cricklewood, down Kilburn High Road, Edgware Road, Park Lane, to Victoria, Vauxhall/Oval, down Brixton Road, Brixton Hill, down through Streatham, Norbury, Thornton Heath, Mayday, West and East Croydon, maybe on to Addiscombe, Shirley and Addington, with a depot around Addington Road. If I could fund it, I'd build it tomorrow

 

[sad1e]

I always wanted Cricklewood, down Kilburn High Road, Edgware Road, Park Lane, to Victoria, Vauxhall/Oval, down Brixton Road, Brixton Hill, down through Streatham, Norbury, Thornton Heath, Mayday, West and East Croydon, maybe on to Addiscombe, Shirley and Addington, with a depot around Addington Road. If I could fund it, I'd build it tomorrow

I've always found it quite strange how no underground line was built up Edgware road during the boom of underground lines in the early 1900's

Edgware road is basically a dead straight alignment from the west end to Northwest London and whoever built it would have had to have paid minimal easement rights to property owners due to this. And there's obviously demand as every time I go down Edgware road it's basically in gridlock.

The only reasons I can think of for it not being built would be the Metropolitan not being happy with another company after northwest London commuter traffic and the prelavence of trams on Edgware road at the time may have pushed away investment as they thought the trams would outcompete the underground line.

 

[tarabomp]

I've always found it quite strange how no underground line was built up Edgware road during the boom of underground lines in the early 1900's

Edgware road is basically a dead straight alignment from the west end to Northwest London and whoever built it would have had to have paid minimal easement rights to property owners due to this. And there's obviously demand as every time I go down Edgware road it's basically in gridlock.

The only reasons I can think of for it not being built would be the Metropolitan not being happy with another company after northwest London commuter traffic and the prelavence of trams on Edgware road at the time may have pushed away investment as they thought the trams would outcompete the underground line.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgware_Road_Tube_schemes Wikipedia gives a couple of proposed schemes

 

[LLivery]

I've always found it quite strange how no underground line was built up Edgware road during the boom of underground lines in the early 1900's

Edgware road is basically a dead straight alignment from the west end to Northwest London and whoever built it would have had to have paid minimal easement rights to property owners due to this. And there's obviously demand as every time I go down Edgware road it's basically in gridlock.

The only reasons I can think of for it not being built would be the Metropolitan not being happy with another company after northwest London commuter traffic and the prelavence of trams on Edgware road at the time may have pushed away investment as they thought the trams would outcompete the underground line.

As said above, it was proposed a few times. It is often gridlock on Kilburn High Road, and very busy roads where not. Airquality is awful and getting down this route takes an age. Brixton station bus stop is also the busiest in London. I don't understand why there's seemingly a lack of interest to improve things on this corridor, even if there isn't a tube line built, something should be done.

 

[JonathanH]

Brixton station bus stop is also the busiest in London. I don't understand why there's seemingly a lack of interest to improve things on this corridor, even if there isn't a tube line built, something should be done

The 1960s vision was for a urban motorway through Brixton.

A lack of interest now simply reflects that there is no money for a large number of transport schemes, and perhaps the kind of low value commuting by bus on the corridors to Brixton. Is there much development that could be unlocked by better routes to Brixton, or just some slightly easier journeys?

Perhaps what we also need to ask is what realistic funding models exist to build the projects being discussed.

 

[cle]

Yes, the boundary is arbitrary, but could you explain the benefits more specifically?

I’m not the poster addressed, but I do think there were many benefits:
- Access to Watford Junction from many more places: WCML access for many as well as St Albans
- Watford as a shopping and employment centre for outer NW London (plenty of company hqs, retail, civic/local employers too)
- Support a major health campus and a stably top ish flight team (at the time)
- connect Harrow and Watford town centres
- build more counter and off peak demand for what are very empty daytime Met trains
- not a crazy amount of station work (Watford Junction itself has the platforms ready) and close a random, very quiet station to add more purpose to the line.

When HS2 is under construction for Euston (closures) - it would be another route to Central London. And after that, Watford Junction will likely have many more calls.

Also it has become a lot more well used for the Harry Potter studios tours - again, demand and purpose in the off hours and counter direction.

That all said, what it does really need is either:
A single double ended station instead of two - or -
A f-ton of new home building

 

[SynthD]

1-DLR, 3-BLE and 4-CR2 unlock housing, so they must be first. 2-WLO and splitting, but not extending, the Northern Line are the other ones I like for moving large amounts of people. The others don't do enough of these aims, some neaten maps.

Presumably the tunnels would need re-boring to accommodate DLR trains?

What is the purpose of aiming for existing tunnels if they can’t be used?

 

[LLivery]

The 1960s vision was for a urban motorway through Brixton.

A lack of interest now simply reflects that there is no money for a large number of transport schemes, and perhaps the kind of low value commuting by bus on the corridors to Brixton. Is there much development that could be unlocked by better routes to Brixton, or just some slightly easier journeys?

Always thankful we avoided most of those motorway proposals

Understand the lack of money for large schemes now, but there's no harm in a 'vision 2100'. It does feel like we've got very little in long term vision for London, despite expected population growth, current access to money or not.

Perhaps what we also need to ask is what realistic funding models exist to build the projects being discussed.

Absolutely and a better business case model

 

[aron2smith]

Yes, the boundary is arbitrary, but could you explain the benefits more specifically?

It would've made a large town like Watford easier to access both for locals and visitors. Would've improved connectivity to both the Chiltern line and the WCML, maybe even the Abbey Line. I think what is apparent from looking at a satellite view of Watford is the right of way is so clearly untouched and for a less than 2 mile section could've really improved connectivity in the area. It's a gaping hole in the town's rail system and I'd say Watford is enough of a destination in its own right (both from London and Hertfordshire) that it needs at least one more railway. The existing tube station seems a bit redundant where it is located too.

Really if its not ever gonna be Metropolitan Line, it needs to be given a transport use anyway. I think HCC were looking at running the HERT there (whatever that may be) and on the Abbey Line potentially. The abandoned section goes fairly near to a hospital and a stadium that look awkward to get to by train currently.

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Always thankful we avoided most of those motorway proposals

Understand the lack of money for large schemes now, but there's no harm in a 'vision 2100'. It does feel like we've got very little in long term vision for London, despite expected population growth, current access to money or not

Agree the A406 North Circular, Westway and M1 are bad enough! Dodged a bullet there! In think the M25 is 2 circular motorways stitched together.

I'd say a 'vision 2050' is necessary now but really any vision for London will inevitably mean a vision across a larger area than the current boundaries. If TFL takes over the lines to Stevenage and Welwyn, there will definitely be other commuter lines they will run the Overground to, beyond the current London boundaries.

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1-DLR, 3-BLE and 4-CR2 unlock housing, so they must be first. 2-WLO and splitting, but not extending, the Northern Line are the other ones I like for moving large amounts of people.

Agree there, hoping after the West London Orbital and DLR to Thamesmead, hoping the Bakerloo finally gets it extension and Crossrail 2 happens. These last 2 could be quite transformative for a load of London including into the neighbouring counties.

Otherwise it's turning some of the busiest Superloop routes into light rail routes to speed up outer boroughs journey times. It may be crazy but I'd love to see a DLR type scheme built above the busiest parts of the A406!

 

[William3000]

Some extra things I’d like to see include:
-Victoria line extension southbound beyond Brixton;
-Splitting of the Northern line (TfL want this too, but it’s a long-term goal);
-If Crossrail 2 is ever built, then the taking over of Thameslink by TfL and bringing it under the Crossrail brand;
-DLR extension westbound from Bank (maybe to the old Jubilee line platforms at Charing Cross, or north towards Euston/St Pancras?).

Some of these were planned at one point or another but have since been shelved. It’s more of a wish list than anything else!

I can’t see Thameslink ever being brought under the Crossrail brand. A tube map extending out to Bedford, Peterborough, Cambridge, and Brighton - all of which are considerably further than Reading and Shenfield seems unlikely

 

[PTR 444]

I can’t see Thameslink ever being brought under the Crossrail brand. A tube map extending out to Bedford, Peterborough, Cambridge, and Brighton - all of which are considerably further than Reading and Shenfield seems unlikely

I don’t think this is really an issue since the London Rail & Tube Map sets a precedent, with outer fringes of routes not shown on the map and stations listed next to a continuation arrow. Many old Tube Maps used to do this too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Nov 2025 ==

There really needs to be an Underground Line from Brixton down to Croydon. I won’t say the Victoria because it faces the wrong way. But maybe something underneath Kingsway up to Euston. Of course Holborn is pretty cramped down there these days.

I’ve always thought this corridor would be perfect for extending the Croydon tram network into Central London, through Streatham and over Waterloo Bridge before terminating at Kings Cross St Pancras. A branch from Holborn to Marble Arch would also enable step-free public transport access to remain along Oxford Street, should pedestrianisation happen.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I don’t think this is really an issue since the London Rail & Tube Map sets a precedent, with outer fringes of routes not shown on the map and stations listed next to a continuation arrow. Many old Tube Maps used to do this too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Nov 2025 ==


I’ve always thought this corridor would be perfect for extending the Croydon tram network into Central London, through Streatham and over Waterloo Bridge before terminating at Kings Cross St Pancras. A branch from Holborn to Marble Arch would also enable step-free public transport access to remain along Oxford Street, should pedestrianisation happen.

Yeah if anything it would be a tram but given how fast demand accumulates in London I could see a tram become a victim of its own success pretty quickly .

 

[JonathanH]

Yeah if anything it would be a tram but given how fast demand accumulates in London I could see a tram become a victim of its own success pretty quickly .

The A23 would be the natural corridor for a Brixton to Croydon tram, but that already broadly follows the existing railway line, and it really isn't obvious where the existing road traffic would go.

What other road corridor could be used?

Looking at the Croydon to Brixton bus routes, there is the 109 that follows the A23, the 60 (to Streatham) that runs south through Pollards Hill to Streatham Common, the 50 (to Stockwell) that goes via Selhurst and Thornton Heath to Norbury and the 250 that goes via Thornton Heath. The other option is perhaps the SL6 route via Beulah Hill and Tulse Hill but that seems to go away from the key population in the valley. Reality is that a lot of bus routes converge on Brixton from the area, and no one corridor with a tram is going to deal with all that demand.

 

[The Planner]

I’m not the poster addressed, but I do think there were many benefits:
- Access to Watford Junction from many more places: WCML access for many as well as St Albans
- Watford as a shopping and employment centre for outer NW London (plenty of company hqs, retail, civic/local employers too)
- Support a major health campus and a stably top ish flight team (at the time)
- connect Harrow and Watford town centres
- build more counter and off peak demand for what are very empty daytime Met trains
- not a crazy amount of station work (Watford Junction itself has the platforms ready) and close a random, very quiet station to add more purpose to the line.

When HS2 is under construction for Euston (closures) - it would be another route to Central London. And after that, Watford Junction will likely have many more calls.

Also it has become a lot more well used for the Harry Potter studios tours - again, demand and purpose in the off hours and counter direction.

That all said, what it does really need is either:
A single double ended station instead of two - or -
A f-ton of new home building

Euston gets closed now without significant issues over Easter etc. HS2 closures will never be of significant length, part of the station will always be open.

 

[MP33]

I thought that any development, at Bank, is ruled out by the number of existing Underground lines. Also, the vaults of The Bank of England and the old Midland Bank.

 

[RT4038]

I’m not the poster addressed, but I do think there were many benefits:
- Access to Watford Junction from many more places: WCML access for many as well as St Albans
- Watford as a shopping and employment centre for outer NW London (plenty of company hqs, retail, civic/local employers too)
- Support a major health campus and a stably top ish flight team (at the time)
- connect Harrow and Watford town centres
- build more counter and off peak demand for what are very empty daytime Met trains
- not a crazy amount of station work (Watford Junction itself has the platforms ready) and close a random, very quiet station to add more purpose to the line.

When HS2 is under construction for Euston (closures) - it would be another route to Central London. And after that, Watford Junction will likely have many more calls.

Also it has become a lot more well used for the Harry Potter studios tours - again, demand and purpose in the off hours and counter direction.

That all said, what it does really need is either:
A single double ended station instead of two - or -
A f-ton of new home building

But the Metropolitan line through Harrow is parallelled by the Overground line - Wembley, Kenton, Harrow & Wealdstone, Hatch End for Pinner etc, so people from those areas of Met. Line stations (Wembley Park, Northwick Park, Harrow on the Hill, Pinner etc) can access Watford Junction from them. The more inconvenient journeys which require a change anyway such as the Uxbridge Line or Rickmansworth and north to Watford High St or Watford Junction are unlikely to be that that large a flow to justify the capital spend required.
The scheme was a nice to have, but surely hardly a priority in the nation's improvement to rail services. TfL couldn't afford it, and certainly Hertfordshire couldn't either.

 

[BrianW]

Yes, the boundary is arbitrary, but could you explain the benefits more specifically?

Boundaries are arbitrary? They are hugely significant and much time (and blood?) is expended in determining them- eg India/ Pakistan; the 'north of Ireland'; ...
When the Greater London Council was created there were detailed considerations, and local inputs, into all the 'marginal areas' (see upthread).
If 'Watford' had wanted the benefits of London, eg higher 'rates' etc, I'm sure they could have lobbied to be part; perhaps an opportunity may yet come.

 

[The exile]

Boundaries are arbitrary? They are hugely significant and much time (and blood?) is expended in determining them- eg India/ Pakistan; the 'north of Ireland'; ...

The fact that they are significant doesn’t stop them being arbitrary. Perhaps even more importantly, many have been “overtaken by events” (examples being the split cities on the Polish /German or even French /Belgian borders - or, closer to home, the boundary of the City of Bristol.

 

[Farnborough]

It may be crazy but I'd love to see a DLR type scheme built above the busiest parts of the A406!

In several India cities, a metro is being built above the dual-carriageways, with the supporting pillars built up out of the central reservations! So why not?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

The A23 would be the natural corridor for a Brixton to Croydon tram, but that already broadly follows the existing railway line, and it really isn't obvious where the existing road traffic would go.

What other road corridor could be used?

Looking at the Croydon to Brixton bus routes, there is the 109 that follows the A23, the 60 (to Streatham) that runs south through Pollards Hill to Streatham Common, the 50 (to Stockwell) that goes via Selhurst and Thornton Heath to Norbury and the 250 that goes via Thornton Heath. The other option is perhaps the SL6 route via Beulah Hill and Tulse Hill but that seems to go away from the key population in the valley. Reality is that a lot of bus routes converge on Brixton from the area, and no one corridor with a tram is going to deal with all that demand.

Exactly, hence why I think any route along that corridor needs to be an Underground line.