National Express Coaches Discussion

[gingerheid]

I find the long distance coach industry very strange after covid. In 2023 services appeared to be ramped up across both NX and Megabus but now it seems be the odd cut.

It comes across that somehow the more competition there is, the worse services get.

 

[omnicity4659]

Negative. Drive cam contract was literally cancelled on Tuesday. They will be removed by February. Although there is talk of leaving the actual units in the coach. But simply when they trigger an event, head office won’t receive it. You didn’t hear that here though….

Certainly a move in the right direction for driver retention anyway.

 

[darloscott]

TIL (today I learnt) the Alcolock devices were adopted in 2010, after an accident in 2007 where the driver was over the limit

2007 M1 motorway coach accident - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Apparently they're more commonplace in some other countries, but yes, other operators in the UK cope without them.

Other operators do have systems in place, usually before sign on. At my previous operator we had a system on the wall that we had to blow into before each shift. (My op here in Australia has something similar).

 

[Benjwri]

It comes across that somehow the more competition there is, the worse services get.

They’ve effectively cannibalised the market. They all run largely the same routes, so every new operator is taking customers off the others, and hence they all end up dropping their frequencies, or the route entirely.


I’ve always found National Express a bit odd anyways. Very London focused, and at least around me stop in very weird places people struggle to access. Also always thought they should’ve investigated more routes that offered something new, rather than mirroring existing railway lines in a lot of cases, where often these days the prices are fairly similar.

 

[coach fan]

I couldn't believe the A8. It makes almost as little sense as FlixBus's (automatically generated?) advertising!!!

Yep. A journey time of an average of 2 hours 30 mins to do Stansted to London Victoria is quite simply mental. The amount of complaints we now get from people missing their connecting coaches you wouldn’t believe.

 

[gingerheid]

They’ve effectively cannibalised the market. They all run largely the same routes, so every new operator is taking customers off the others, and hence they all end up dropping their frequencies, or the route entirely.

The competitive market seems to gravitate towards operating kind of semi fast routes that are merged out of fast routes. It won't be non stop, but it also won't bring services into smaller settlements. Seems efficient for the operator rather than the passenger

I’ve always found National Express a bit odd anyways. Very London focused, and at least around me stop in very weird places people struggle to access. Also always thought they should’ve investigated more routes that offered something new, rather than mirroring existing railway lines in a lot of cases, where often these days the prices are fairly similar.

I appreciate that running a National Express is really really difficult, because our roads are awful and our trains aren't actually that bad. But it feels like they fail to hit the markets that are available to them, or to let people know what it is they actually do.

- Overnight travel can be a strength; the railways aren't good at that
- Airports can be a strength, particularly airports to not the nearest big city
- Low cost flexibility can be a strength, as the railways are awful at this

The above three factors can work absolutely beautifully together; people don't exactly know when exactly very late at night they might turn up at an airport. And, frankly, National Express loads are so poor that they can afford to let people be flexible. But somehow (certainly for me and my local airports) they just don't manage to hit the mark.

- Additionally, our railways are often very London centric, and there's a lot of routes where coach times can be really competitive.

But where they do run those routes, perhaps only enthusiasts would ever run the risk of finding out! And the Lake District is visited by millions of people a year, and only bits of it are well served by trains. It feels like a national coach operator ought to be able to find a place for itself within it!

 

[nick291]

The above three factors can work absolutely beautifully together; people don't exactly know when exactly very late at night they might turn up at an airport. And, frankly, National Express loads are so poor that they can afford to let people be flexible. But somehow (certainly for me and my local airports) they just don't manage to hit the mark.

- Additionally, our railways are often very London centric, and there's a lot of routes where coach times can be really competitive.

But where they do run those routes, perhaps only enthusiasts would ever run the risk of finding out! And the Lake District is visited by millions of people a year, and only bits of it are well served by trains. It feels like a national coach operator ought to be able to find a place for itself within it!

I remember Pre-COVID NatEx running a daily 541 service from London to Whitehaven, beggars belief it's not come back tbh. Also another area NatEx needs improving on is customer service/communication, more so in Victoria Coach station because it's been a complete shambles this evening.

 

[coach fan]

I remember Pre-COVID NatEx running a daily 541 service from London to Whitehaven, beggars belief it's not come back tbh. Also another area NatEx needs improving on is customer service/communication, more so in Victoria Coach station because it's been a complete shambles this evening.

The customer service assistants (CSA) have always been useless at Victoria. Yet so many of them there. That’s where they could start saving money.

 

[route101]

I remember Pre-COVID NatEx running a daily 541 service from London to Whitehaven, beggars belief it's not come back tbh. Also another area NatEx needs improving on is customer service/communication, more so in Victoria Coach station because it's been a complete shambles this evening.

Yes, that service would do well in the summer and could serve Lancaster and Preston too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Nov 2025 ==

The competitive market seems to gravitate towards operating kind of semi fast routes that are merged out of fast routes. It won't be non stop, but it also won't bring services into smaller settlements. Seems efficient for the operator rather than the passenger

I appreciate that running a National Express is really really difficult, because our roads are awful and our trains aren't actually that bad. But it feels like they fail to hit the markets that are available to them, or to let people know what it is they actually do.

- Overnight travel can be a strength; the railways aren't good at that
- Airports can be a strength, particularly airports to not the nearest big city
- Low cost flexibility can be a strength, as the railways are awful at this

The above three factors can work absolutely beautifully together; people don't exactly know when exactly very late at night they might turn up at an airport. And, frankly, National Express loads are so poor that they can afford to let people be flexible. But somehow (certainly for me and my local airports) they just don't manage to hit the mark.

- Additionally, our railways are often very London centric, and there's a lot of routes where coach times can be really competitive.

But where they do run those routes, perhaps only enthusiasts would ever run the risk of finding out! And the Lake District is visited by millions of people a year, and only bits of it are well served by trains. It feels like a national coach operator ought to be able to find a place for itself within it!

Overnight travel is probably the reason why I use the coach. The seated sleeper is an option but it sells out quicker.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I remember Pre-COVID NatEx running a daily 541 service from London to Whitehaven, beggars belief it's not come back tbh. Also another area NatEx needs improving on is customer service/communication, more so in Victoria Coach station because it's been a complete shambles this evening.

I do wonder if NatEx trying to compete with Flix is just a bit pointless (because Flix will win) a bit like the way easyJet avoids competing directly with Ryanair. Flix has won basically everywhere it has entered the market (having already trounced Megabus into being little more than a brand of Citylink within and to/from Scotland), so NatEx needs to differentiate itself, and I'm not sure "slightly nicer coaches" really works in what is primarily a budget market.

The whole "direct services from everywhere to everywhere for oldies and young adults at uni" might actually be the sort of niche Flix wouldn't be interested in.

 

[coach fan]

I do wonder if NatEx trying to compete with Flix is just a bit pointless (because Flix will win) a bit like the way easyJet avoids competing directly with Ryanair. Flix has won basically everywhere it has entered the market (having already trounced Megabus into being little more than a brand of Citylink within and to/from Scotland), so NatEx needs to differentiate itself, and I'm not sure "slightly nicer coaches" really works in what is primarily a budget market.

The whole "direct services from everywhere to everywhere for oldies and young adults at uni" might actually be the sort of niche Flix wouldn't be interested in.

Yes. Nat ex senior management have this bizarre notion that people see Nat ex, a well known brand and will choose them regardless because…..national expess. It’s arrogance of the highest order. It’s the bottom rung of the transport ladder I’m sorry to say. People care about price and to a lower extent, how direct a service is. Not that national express has been around 50 years or you can reserve the front 5 rows on a coach.

 

[Benjwri]

Yes. Nat ex senior management have this bizarre notion that people see Nat ex, a well known brand and will choose them regardless because…..national expess. It’s arrogance of the highest order. It’s the bottom rung of the transport ladder I’m sorry to say. People care about price and to a lower extent, how direct a service is. Not that national express has been around 50 years or you can reserve the front 5 rows on a coach.

The vast majority of the people I know wouldn’t even consider Nat Ex if there was another option, such as the railway. In my opinion it’s appearance in things like Google Maps is also important, and when I look for a journey and see Nat Ex requires a trip to a park and ride served every hour, just before/after the coach in the wrong way, it won’t come off well against any option.

 

[Dwarfer1979]

The vast majority of the people I know wouldn’t even consider Nat Ex if there was another option, such as the railway. In my opinion it’s appearance in things like Google Maps is also important, and when I look for a journey and see Nat Ex requires a trip to a park and ride served every hour, just before/after the coach in the wrong way, it won’t come off well against any option.

But that is really coach, not NatEx - Intercity coaches are an option primarily chosen on price or convenience rather than as the first choice if there is another option, it has little to do with the operator. NatEx probably still does hold the brand recognition amongst the general public, I suspect if you surveyed the general public a much higher proportion would be aware of National Express than Flixbus (though their TV/online ads indicate Flixbus are working on this and will help that balance) though whether that converts into more potential users is a seperate point - are people who actually consider using coaches more aware of the different options than the general public?

I do wonder if NatEx trying to compete with Flix is just a bit pointless (because Flix will win) a bit like the way easyJet avoids competing directly with Ryanair. Flix has won basically everywhere it has entered the market (having already trounced Megabus into being little more than a brand of Citylink within and to/from Scotland), so NatEx needs to differentiate itself, and I'm not sure "slightly nicer coaches" really works in what is primarily a budget market.

The whole "direct services from everywhere to everywhere for oldies and young adults at uni" might actually be the sort of niche Flix wouldn't be interested in.

I'm not sure Flixbus beat Megabus, the new owners of Megabus gave up without a fight almost as soon as Flixbus started expanding from their initial entry, it is more Flixbus have benefitted from moving into the gap left by Megabus at that budget "no frills" end of the market. It would have been interesting to have seen what would have happened if Megabus was still owned by a Souter led Stagecoach rather than the post Souter Stagecoach or a Scottish focussed Citylink. They have succeeded in most global markets they have entered but few were as established (most European countries limited long distance coach operations to protect their rail networks) and long standing markets as the UK is and I don't think many had such well established major businesses operating (Greyhound in the states is one but Flixbus bought that). In many ways Flixbus is the current ultimate end point of a business model that was pioneered in the UK for commercial coach operation and what we are seeing play out in the UK will answer the question of whether the student has surpassed the master (though helped by the appearance of the master having had a nervous breakdown in the middle)

The cost difference between a standard coach as used by Flixbus & a "nice" coach as used by NatEx is probably minimal so the price difference between the tickets is not going to be high and at that point an operator who can offer a more comfortable seat with better legroom (& better wheelchair accessibility for those who need it) is a marketing advantage. I would certainly favour a NatEx service with a greater certainty of more comfort than I have seen reported for many Flixbus coaches as someone over 6ft tall (like the Yutongs, I find the Trent ones on the Red Arrow comfortable enough for a 30-min but legroom is only just OK and if I were on one for a couple of hours I suspect my view would quickly change but the Levantes were very comfortable on my past trips from the East Midlands to London).

I do agree that the NatEx strategy of responding to Flixbus by focussing their network on the very aspects that Flixbus are concentrating on by reducing their other more unique links does seem flawed, they may not have been hugely profitable but they would have been a safe base to stand on as long as they made a little profit and since NatEx is a business built on paying other businesses to buy & operate the hardware it shouldn't have been that expensive to do the reaction services on top as there isn't much set-up costs for NatEx themselves to add coaches.

 

[MotCO]

I do agree that the NatEx strategy of responding to Flixbus by focussing their network on the very aspects that Flixbus are concentrating on by reducing their other more unique links does seem flawed,

Should Nat Ex create a slightly different business model - maybe going back to their roots (or should that be routes? ) In times past, there used to be feeder coachers, linking up at Cheltenham and Victoria, for onward travel. Should Nat Ex start providing feeder routes ('Nat Exp Link'?) to cover more local areas, to link up with the major, faster routes ('Rapide') There are more Nat Ex coaches than Flix, so coverage should be greater, without losing some of the elements of speed and price.

(As an example, there was am earlier discussion about Runcorn being poorly served. Set up a local link, maybe picking up in Frodsham, Runcorn, Warrington etc and change on to the 'Rapide' at a service station on the M6.)

 

[Haru]

I’ve heard that lease National Express bays at Bristol are up for renewal in the next couple of years. Would flix take the opportunity and give First more routes in order to push Nat Ex out to take the London Bristol market?

First would be the major operator with Lumo and Flix then?

 

[markymark2000]

I suspect if you surveyed the general public a much higher proportion would be aware of National Express than Flixbus (though their TV/online ads indicate Flixbus are working on this and will help that balance) though whether that converts into more potential users is a seperate point - are people who actually consider using coaches more aware of the different options than the general public?

I don't think this is quite the case. I think a lot of people will know about Flixbus, but perhaps not know where they operate or their routes or they will associate Flixbus with some of the many horror stories that they have had over the years abroad (and to some extents some of the bad stories people have in the UK with customer service). I think that if you were to ask which operator people prefer of the two (if everything was equal), that would sway into National Expresses favour.

Should Nat Ex create a slightly different business model - maybe going back to their roots (or should that be routes? ) In times past, there used to be feeder coachers, linking up at Cheltenham and Victoria, for onward travel. Should Nat Ex start providing feeder routes ('Nat Exp Link'?) to cover more local areas, to link up with the major, faster routes ('Rapide') There are more Nat Ex coaches than Flix, so coverage should be greater, without losing some of the elements of speed and price.

(As an example, there was am earlier discussion about Runcorn being poorly served. Set up a local link, maybe picking up in Frodsham, Runcorn, Warrington etc and change on to the 'Rapide' at a service station on the M6.)

I don't think that would solve anything. People don't want to be changing coaches and from my experience, forcing connections is the issue, not the solution.

I’ve heard that lease National Express bays at Bristol are up for renewal in the next couple of years. Would flix take the opportunity and give First more routes in order to push Nat Ex out to take the London Bristol market?

First would be the major operator with Lumo and Flix then?

First need to work out where their loyalties lie. Operating services for Flix, even moving some of their own services around Bristol Bus Station to accommodate Flix. But then offer a lot more of their services as 3rd party connections via NatEx, and won't take stand 7 off NatEx to become a flexible spare stand for both operators. Then in Scotland, their Kings Coaches division has been operating routes for Citylink, which directly compete with Flix. Doesn't make sense.

 

[Haru]

I guess wait and see, but I can’t see Flix missing the opportunity to get a big piece of the Bristol market as where can Nat Ex go in Bristol.

 

[nick291]

Should Nat Ex create a slightly different business model - maybe going back to their roots (or should that be routes? ) In times past, there used to be feeder coachers, linking up at Cheltenham and Victoria, for onward travel. Should Nat Ex start providing feeder routes ('Nat Exp Link'?) to cover more local areas, to link up with the major, faster routes ('Rapide') There are more Nat Ex coaches than Flix, so coverage should be greater, without losing some of the elements of speed and price.

(As an example, there was am earlier discussion about Runcorn being poorly served. Set up a local link, maybe picking up in Frodsham, Runcorn, Warrington etc and change on to the 'Rapide' at a service station on the M6.)

I wish they'd go back to the Express Shuttle style of brand and info from the mid/late 90's. Coaches looked smart and gave clear concise route info.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Nov 2025 ==

I guess wait and see, but I can’t see Flix missing the opportunity to get a big piece of the Bristol market as where can Nat Ex go in Bristol.

NatEx only has a handful of routes in Bristol now anyway, so not every bay gets used.

 

[Wilko82]

It would appear that Park’s management in Scotland were totally unaware too!!

So given that both Edwards and Park's themselves are unaware, I think we can assume that it wasn't and isn't true.

 

[henryb]

So given that both Edwards and Park's themselves are unaware, I think we can assume that it wasn't and isn't true.

So we think Parks will just be run into the ground then? I assume the cut back in duties to Birmingham is to ensure that they have a enough serviceable vehicles for London-Devon/Cornwall

 

[PG]

So given that both Edwards and Park's themselves are unaware, I think we can assume that it wasn't and isn't true.

I don't think we can assume that - more like some employees weren't aware. Post #1554 up thread indicates that details of the transfer have been seen in black and white but can't be shared here.

 

[Wilko82]

I don't think we can assume that - more like some employees weren't aware. Post #1554 up thread indicates that details of the transfer have been seen in black and white but can't be shared here.

So why are Park's management themselves apparently unaware?

 

[Dfatcontroller]

So why are Park's management themselves apparently unaware?

Perhaps the notice I have seen wasn't authentic. Wouldn't be the first one recently to be created by someone looking to cause trouble.

 

[coach fan]

Perhaps the notice I have seen wasn't authentic. Wouldn't be the first one recently to be created by someone looking to cause trouble.

Or it could be the classic manager tactic of playing dumb and pretending you don’t know to avoid questions and actually doing some work. Then again that’s probably wrong of me to assume all depots have the same management with the same attitude.

 

[JD2168]

Seen Yesterday (13/11/25) in Sheffield Interchange on Stotts run 131 was this Volvo B11R Plaxton Elite - SE18 YXC. Certainly was unusual seeing one of these on National Express work

 

[F Great Eastern]

I use to be a regular passenger on the former 250 (now 717) route from Ipswich that was run by National Express every couple of hours, but since Covid they were very slow to increase frequency. For a long time it was about 3 times a day and even now it is only 8 times a day, down from what was 11 journeys previously.

Often I simply don't get it because the fact there are several 3 hour gaps in the timetable. For arriving flights you can wait a long time for one as after 15:45 the next three coaches ex Stansted are 18:15, 21:00 and then 00:30 with the gap between the last a particular problem as Stansted has a lot of arrivals in that time.

Of course some of that has been the fact they have been bitten by cheap fare cap fares on the X20 from Colchester, but their slow reaction to build services up after covid has saw many (myself included) to now switch to the train via Cambridge as the coach often simply just means having a lot of time to kill at the airport for either one or both journeys.

 

[cambsy]

I personally hope that Edward’s taking over Parks Plymouth Depot is happening, as Parks coaches are getting to be real sheds now, as some of them are now approaching 8 years old and newest 4 are 2021 plates, where as Edward’s are mostly 2 years old at the most. It makes sense for Edward’s take over Parks Plymouth depot,as they already operate down South West, and have big depot Avonmouth, so be lot more closer and interested in running good service rather than Parks who based Hamilton and are more interested in Scottish Citylink, as there on Nat Ex work is out of Plymouth depot.

Parks have bought a lot of Volvo double deckers for Citylink work, so no wonder they not keen spend several million for coaches for Nat Ex work, which is small percentage of their work.

 

[Ewan M]

Seen Yesterday (13/11/25) in Sheffield Interchange on Stotts run 131 was this Volvo B11R Plaxton Elite - SE18 YXC. Certainly was unusual seeing one of these on National Express work

Being used by Stotts as a stop gap until their third new Temsa arrives in the new year

 

[EYFanatic]

Can you still book/reserve seats on NatEx because I've tried looking at services for December 14th to London from Leeds and not a single coach trip offered the option which I found strange. Is something big going on that day and hence the coaches are full?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I remember Pre-COVID NatEx running a daily 541 service from London to Whitehaven, beggars belief it's not come back tbh. Also another area NatEx needs improving on is customer service/communication, more so in Victoria Coach station because it's been a complete shambles this evening.

But where they do run those routes, perhaps only enthusiasts would ever run the risk of finding out! And the Lake District is visited by millions of people a year, and only bits of it are well served by trains. It feels like a national coach operator ought to be able to find a place for itself within it!

The timings were appalling (571 not 541). In 2017, 0805 out of Keswick, mmm I'd prefer a breakfast before starting home. Even 0840 out of Windermere is a bit early. Arrival from the south at 1917 / 2000 respectively. An operation timed for the convenience of vehicle and driver utilisation.