Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[swr444]

Yes hope is exactly the right word to go with SWR and doing right/sensible/logical right thing...

The reality is that they will need to maintain some level of driver competency on 450s for mainline diversions and an obvious way to do that is some of the Chertsey etc. services but would that be enough.

I suspect there will be a slight breather on 701 roll out after the last 455 is retired to allow a bit of a reset at maintenance facilities which will be better for further roll out in the medium term.

This has already been covered, there are 5xxx services which run via richmond and hounslow to woking from waterloo to keep up driver competency (for outer depots like Basingstoke) on the windsor lines. To retain competency for Waterloo etc they will just roster in drivers to work fast / semi-fast services to Woking and Guildford. All Suburban / Windsor passenger services will be 701.

 

[TEW]

I suspect there will be a slight breather on 701 roll out after the last 455 is retired to allow a bit of a reset at maintenance facilities which will be better for further roll out in the medium term.

That indeed is the plan. Allow more units to come in to service without an increase in diagrams for a little bit to allow them to be more reliably covered.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

The reality is that they will need to maintain some level of driver competency on 450s for mainline diversions and an obvious way to do that is some of the Chertsey etc. services but would that be enough.

Spot on! Due to the number of bodies (ie: drivers and guards) based at certain main line depots who may need to work services via diversionary routes during engineering works, be it via Chertsey (vice Surbiton), via Cobham (vice Woking), via the Pompey direct (vice the SWML/Winchester), there are only so many route learning opportunities that can be worked in the base plan, in respect of specific route learning trains over diversionary routes both stock and crew wise. There are only so many duties (ie People) who can be released week by week to undertake such duties, and in that context it will never be enough to cover a (eg) 48 blockade of the SWML between (eg) Clapham and Weybridge, or similar.

In other words, as hwl has rightly mentioned, there will always be a need for 450's to have some involvement in certain suburban diagrams, and in my day, the Chertsey diversionary route was seen as a top priority, hence a number of Waterloo-Weybridge diagrams (three, if my crap memory is still correct) were diagrammed to 450's instead of 458/5 or 707.

 

[swr444]

Spot on! Due to the number of bodies (ie: drivers and guards) based at certain main line depots who may need to work services via diversionary routes during engineering works, be it via Chertsey (vice Surbiton), via Cobham (vice Woking), via the Pompey direct (vice the SWML/Winchester), there are only so many route learning opportunities that can be worked in the base plan, in respect of specific route learning trains over diversionary routes both stock and crew wise. There are only so many duties (ie People) who can be released week by week to undertake such duties, and in that context it will never be enough to cover a (eg) 48 blockade of the SWML between (eg) Clapham and Weybridge, or similar.

In other words, as hwl has rightly mentioned, there will always be a need for 450's to have some involvement in certain suburban diagrams, and in my day, the Chertsey diversionary route was seen as a top priority, hence a number of Waterloo-Weybridge diagrams (three, if my crap memory is still correct) were diagrammed to 450's instead of 458/5 or 707.

Crew do not need to go over a route to keep their traction knowledge. They just need to work the train once within a 6 month period. A Guard/Driver can just be rostered to work an Alton, Basing, Pompey etc to Woking or Guildford from Waterloo to keep their knowledge up. Basingstoke and other outer depots have 5S/5C/5Y services which go over the Windsor lines using a single 450 so they can keep their competency up.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Crew do not need to go over a route to keep their traction knowledge.

My thoughts were about route knowledge, not traction. It may be that there are now sufficient 5S/5C/5Y services in the base plan to keep diversionary route knowledge up to speed for any potential weekend engineering works scenario? If so, that is a bonus.
It was something that some of us struggled to get across at times to those who held the purse strings, when it came to (crew) depot establishments, and the need for engineering work diversionary route knowledge.

Lets just hope that that lesson has been learned?

 

[DMckduck]

This has already been covered, there are 5xxx services which run via richmond and hounslow to woking from waterloo to keep up driver competency (for outer depots like Basingstoke) on the windsor lines. To retain competency for Waterloo etc they will just roster in drivers to work fast / semi-fast services to Woking and Guildford. All Suburban / Windsor passenger services will be 701.

Will any of the Suburban/Metro depots sign off the desiros then if all of their work will be 701, mainly Strawberry Hill and Staines?

 

[lewisf]

If anything, the 450s need a damn good wash. They’re absolutely filthy externally, I guess that’s down to them being worked hard and covering so many suburban diagrams.

I still notice a lot of 455s covering for 701 diagrams so although the plan is for no more 455s after the December timetable change I’m sure there will still be the odd one subbing in.

 

[randompixel]

well let‘s hope SWR do the logical thing and start moving all 450s back to thr main line in January.
how many 450 diagrams are currently working inner suburban and Windsor side services?

A number of Alton/Basingstoke's that used to be 12 could still do with being 12.

 

[WWTownEnth]

A number of Alton/Basingstoke's that used to be 12 could still do with being 12.

Agreed and there are a few too many five car services to portsmouth right now that could also be 8 or 10.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Agreed and there are a few too many five car services to portsmouth right now that could also be 8 or 10.

Otherwise, eventually, what will all these 701s be for.

 

[Snow1964]

This week there are 10 pairs of 450 on inner suburban diagrams and four pairs of 450 on outer suburban Windsor line diagrams. One of the latter is peak hours only.

So 14 diagrams with 450s which when released would allow 28 busy 8car 450s to be made upto 12car (in theory, even if it doesn't happen).

In addition to the 450s covering, if add in the remaining 455 diagrams and the 458/5 (both of which are leaving) then it becomes at least 50 diagrams for 10car 701s.

After that it depends how many of the suburban cuts from 6 years ago are restored. And if the 458/4s leave Windsor side. Could increase upto 75-80 diagrams (which of course would need 5car 701s in pairs too). Rather depends on how long 458/4s stay on Windsor suburban (2027 has been mentioned, but might just be talk)

 

[WWTownEnth]

So 14 diagrams with 450s which when released would allow 28 busy 8car 450s to be made upto 12car (in theory, even if it doesn't happen).

In addition to the 450s covering, if add in the remaining 455 diagrams and the 458/5 (both of which are leaving) then it becomes at least 50 diagrams for 10car 701s.

After that it depends how many of the suburban cuts from 6 years ago are restored. And if the 458/4s leave Windsor side. Could increase upto 75-80 diagrams (which of course would need 5car 701s in pairs too). Rather depends on how long 458/4s stay on Windsor suburban (2027 has been mentioned, but might just be talk)

It would also allow two five car diagrams to be replaced by one ten car diagram and one eight or 12 car diagram. In many ways, getting rid of those five car diagrams is even more urgent a task.

 

[Siemens Staines]

So 14 diagrams with 450s which when released would allow 28 busy 8car 450s to be made upto 12car (in theory, even if it doesn't happen).

In addition to the 450s covering, if add in the remaining 455 diagrams and the 458/5 (both of which are leaving) then it becomes at least 50 diagrams for 10car 701s.

After that it depends how many of the suburban cuts from 6 years ago are restored. And if the 458/4s leave Windsor side. Could increase upto 75-80 diagrams (which of course would need 5car 701s in pairs too). Rather depends on how long 458/4s stay on Windsor suburban (2027 has been mentioned, but might just be talk)

This maybe a an overly simplistic count and is not a prediction of what will actually pan out as it takes no account of stabling facilities for 10-car 701s, but as of next week

701/0 - 29 sets
455 - 6 sets
458/5 - 2 sets
450(Metro) - 10 sets
450(Windsor lines) - 4 sets
Total - 51 sets

which is in the right sort of ball park for a fleet of 60 units, with a few to spare.

If, for the sake of argument, there was a like for like swap between 458/4 and 701/5 then
458/4 - 12 pairs (24 units)
450(Ascot-Aldershot) - 3 units
Total - 27 units

which again is in the right ball park for a fleet of 30 units.

I am uncertain as to whether Guildford - Farnham (3 units) was planned to go over to 701/5 or remain as 450.

As I say, this is not a prediction, for example some of the Reading 2*458/4 diagrams will probably become 701/0. It also does not take account of any services that may be re-instated at some point in the future.

 

[weeklycommuter]

I am uncertain as to whether Guildford - Farnham (3 units) was planned to go over to 701/5 or remain as 450.

SWR Guildford - Farnham train services next week are listed in Real Time Trains as including first class so I assume remain as 450.

 

[Flange Squeal]

SWR Guildford - Farnham train services next week are listed in Real Time Trains as including first class so I assume remain as 450.

Both the Aldershot to Ascot (bar the pair of weekday through London services each way) and Farnham to Guildford services are listed as having first class accommodation in the new 14th December onwards timetables on the SWR website. This doesn't mean 701/5s aren't intended to potentially work those services in the longer term though, as first class provision could simply be discontinued at a later date, just like when Class 456s were put on what was then the combined Guildford to Ascot service.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

This maybe a an overly simplistic count and is not a prediction of what will actually pan out as it takes no account of stabling facilities for 10-car 701s, but as of next week

701/0 - 29 sets
455 - 6 sets
458/5 - 2 sets
450(Metro) - 10 sets
450(Windsor lines) - 4 sets
Total - 51 sets

which is in the right sort of ball park for a fleet of 60 units, with a few to spare.

If, for the sake of argument, there was a like for like swap between 458/4 and 701/5 then
458/4 - 12 pairs (24 units)
450(Ascot-Aldershot) - 3 units
Total - 27 units

I am yet to see any backed up that the existing Ascot Aldershot shuttles will go over to 701/5. Particularly as all immediate stations except for Ash Vale have short platforms.

 

[Flange Squeal]

I am yet to see any backed up that the existing Ascot Aldershot shuttles will go over to 701/5. Particularly as all immediate stations except for Ash Vale have short platforms.

Camberley can also accommodate a 701/5.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Camberley can also accommodate a 701/5.

Okay fair enough but does it not seem a bit of a waste for nothing. I grew up in Farnham and the line has never been anywhere near busy enough to justify the metro style layout or the extra carriage, which will then be hanging off the platforms at Bagshot, Frimley, Ash and Wanborough anyway. A single 450 is so perfect for both shuttles (it’s one Ascot Guildford service on Sundays of course)

 

[Flange Squeal]

Okay fair enough but does it not seem a bit of a waste for nothing. I grew up in Farnham and the line has never been anywhere near busy enough to justify the metro style layout or the extra carriage, which will then be hanging off the platforms at Bagshot, Frimley, Ash and Wanborough anyway. A single 450 is so perfect for both shuttles (it’s one Ascot Guildford service on Sundays of course)

Ash can also hold a 701/5 on the 'up' (towards Guildford), although last I heard Ash and Wanborough were still awaiting sign-off for 701s to stop at them.

My understanding is that Bagshot can also release the first set of doors in coach 5.

 

[43096]

Okay fair enough but does it not seem a bit of a waste for nothing. I grew up in Farnham and the line has never been anywhere near busy enough to justify the metro style layout or the extra carriage, which will then be hanging off the platforms at Bagshot, Frimley, Ash and Wanborough anyway. A single 450 is so perfect for both shuttles (it’s one Ascot Guildford service on Sundays of course)

It's also a bit awkward from a stock working point of view.

When there were 458/0s on the service, I think there was a daily Q path to/from Wimbledon for them and for the 456s there was a daily Waterloo/Clapham to Guildford via Ascot as a way of getting a pair from Wimbledon depot. In contrast the 450s can be very easily cycled into/out of the circuit at Farnham by inter-working overnight with the Alton units stabled there.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I am uncertain as to whether Guildford - Farnham (3 units) was planned to go over to 701/5 or remain as 450.

At the time the 701s were ordered, they were a direct replacement for classes 455, 456, 458 and 707, which allowed for (in my educated estimate) 4 x 10 car & 2 x 5 car as maintenance units. Guildford-Ascot (as was) was never part of the equation, and 450's would continue.

A lot has changed since of course, so who knows, but I suspect the original plans may well be adhered to within the next couple of years.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Ash can also hold a 701/5 on the 'up' (towards Guildford), although last I heard Ash and Wanborough were still awaiting sign-off for 701s to stop at them.

Thanks for the information but it doesn’t really change my point does it? When there’s a unit that fits perfectly in every platform, has an interior suitable for the work it does, as opposed to a longer Metro unit fitted around standing room and grab rails that would overhang other stops, it makes sense to use those.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Nov 2025 ==

At the time the 701s were ordered, they were a direct replacement for classes 455, 456, 458 and 707, which allowed for (in my educated estimate) 4 x 10 car 2 x 5 car as maintenance units. Guildford-Ascot (as was) was never part of the equation, and 450's would continue.

A lot has changed since of course, so who knows, but I suspect the original plans may well be adhered to within the next couple of years.

What I think has happened is, a lot of people have seen Ascot - Aldershot included on the “Arterio map” and automatically assumed that means the shuttles would go over. I personally believe it’s included on the map only because of the twice-daily through services, which would indeed be 701.*

*701/0 only, I’m assuming, because the entire back unit would overhang Bagshot and Frimley in a pair of /5s. Making it all the weirder to have /5s shuttling around the area, if there’s no other reason to stable them in Farnham.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

*701/0 only, I’m assuming, because the entire back unit would overhang Bagshot and Frimley in a pair of /5s. Making it all the weirder to have /5s shuttling around the area, if there’s no other reason to stable them in Farnham.

Yes, the peak hour through services Farnham/Aldershot to Waterloo via Ascot (and reverse) interwork with the Waterloo-Readings, so it's a simple case of keeping the overall plan as is/was* for mostly stabling capacity and crew route knowledge etc, basically a straight swap for what was 458 operated.
(* pre covid)

 

[Flange Squeal]

Thanks for the information but it doesn’t really change my point does it? When there’s a unit that fits perfectly in every platform, has an interior suitable for the work it does, as opposed to a longer Metro unit fitted around standing room and grab rails that would overhang other stops, it makes sense to use those.

Well it changes your original point in so much as you said 701/5s don't fit in any of the intermediate stations "except Ash Vale", but in reality the front set of doors in coach 5 can open at Bagshot, all coaches at Camberley in both directions, and all five at Ash in one direction.

The matter of interior layout and capacity came in a later follow up post, and no I wouldn't say it was required. It may well be likely that the Ascot to Farnham section is only shown for trains in the current timetable such as the peak hour through London and 0024 Ascot to Farnham services, and the Woking to Aldershot section for trains such as the 1802 Waterloo to Aldershot via Woking. It does also show Guildford to Aldershot with the stations at Ash and Wanborough though, which could well be an error or an intention.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Well it changes your original point in so much as you said 701/5s don't fit in any of the intermediate stations "except Ash Vale", but in reality the front set of doors in coach 5 can open at Bagshot, all coaches at Camberley in both directions, and all five at Ash in one direction.

I just think it’d be an unnecessary confusion/complication to have to take all of these different platform lengths into account when the current train just fits everywhere, that’s all

That being said - believe it or not I’d actually be very happy to see 701/5s work the route, as while 450s are vastly more suitable, they’re so boring

 

[WWTownEnth]

Are we likely to see any units entering passenger service this week?

 

[mansonlo49]

I just think it’d be an unnecessary confusion/complication to have to take all of these different platform lengths into account when the current train just fits everywhere, that’s all

That being said - believe it or not I’d actually be very happy to see 701/5s work the route, as while 450s are vastly more suitable, they’re so boring

yes，same as me, wanted to see the other variant of the 701s

 

[Snow1964]

Are we likely to see any units entering passenger service this week?

Deleted, wrong thread

 

[bb21]

Are we likely to see any units entering passenger service this week?

Yes, very slow progress at the moment.

701033 just made ready today, so now officially half of the 701/0's are cleared for service.

 

[WWTownEnth]

Yes, very slow progress at the moment.

701033 just made ready today, so now officially half of the 701/0's are cleared for service.

I guess any progress is good progress when it comes to the 701s. Thanks for the update: good to have finally hit the 50% mark for the ten car units.