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In the past if I have been rushing for the train and don't have time to use the ticket machine the inspector will sell them onboard. I travelled with west midlands rail recently but the inspector was only checking and fining, they would not let me purchase a ticket. I have been charged a penalty of £100 for this but I don't think that's fair. Is this a permanent change? Do I just have to miss my train in future? Are other rail providers doing this? Can I appeal this charge?
Any advice or answers would be appreciated, thank you.
All rail passengers are required to purchase a train ticket before boarding any UK train if you have boarded at a station with ticket facilities. Failure to do so may result in a Penalty Fare of at least £100.
It is the law that you must hold a valid ticket before boarding a train unless ticket purchasing facilities are not available or not working at your boarding station. Some train staff will choose to be nice and sell you a ticket onboard but you have broken the law and a penalty fare is the appropriate outcome.
Penalty fares have to be issued in line with specific legislation, and often staff get things wrong which makes the penalty fare invalid. Could you please upload a photo of the penalty fare notice (make sure to redact your personal details and the penalty fare reference number) so we can check it?
It is the law that you must hold a valid ticket before boarding a train unless ticket purchasing facilities are not available or not working at your boarding station. Some train staff will choose to be nice and sell you a ticket onboard but you have broken the law and a penalty fare is the appropriate outcome.
Penalty fares have to be issued in line with specific legislation, and often staff get things wrong which makes the penalty fare invalid. Could you please upload a photo of the penalty fare notice (make sure to redact your personal details and the penalty fare reference number) so we can check it?
Here is the letter I received, I would still like to know when this policy changed as conductors still commonly sold tickets when I used northern trains
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It is the law that you must hold a valid ticket before boarding a train unless ticket purchasing facilities are not available or not working at your boarding station. Some train staff will choose to be nice and sell you a ticket onboard but you have broken the law and a penalty fare is the appropriate outcome.
Penalty fares have to be issued in line with specific legislation, and often staff get things wrong which makes the penalty fare invalid. Could you please upload a photo of the penalty fare notice (make sure to redact your personal details and the penalty fare reference number) so we can check it?
All rail passengers are required to purchase a train ticket before boarding any UK train if you have boarded at a station with ticket facilities. Failure to do so may result in a Penalty Fare of at least £100.
In NI buying on board is generally permitted, as this new* idea of a "ticket machine" has only appeared here in the last few years. However, it is not unusual for the guard to walk through the carriage, ask if anyone wants to buy a ticket, and then do a ticket check. If someone doesn't hold a ticket they would then normally be fined as they declined the opportunity to buy a ticket when this was offered by the guard.
If your origin had an open ticket office you could also be in trouble potentially.
*I know it isn't new, but we're generally a bit slow over here on introducing new stuff!
Here is the letter I received, I would still like to know when this policy changed as conductors still commonly sold tickets when I used northern trains
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The policy you referred to has been changing route by route for many years (decades in fact).
Many years ago (1970s?) British Rail had the concept of 'Pay Trains' which involved removing staff from stations, closing ticket offices, and passengers bought tickets from the guard on board and this was permitted and widespread on routes with stations that were typically smaller stations with low passenger use. Sometimes this was whole routes where it applied.
With the introduction of ticket vending machines in more recent years, even at very small stations, and the more widespread use of payment cards and indeed on line ticket buying (which meant less people chose to use ticket machines), the government was able to require train companies (the government sets the specifications by which train companies operate services and facilities) to turn routes over to Penalty Fare Routes on a gradual basis (so there is not one set date for the policy change).
as time goes on a route becomes Penalty Fare approved where these rules come into place
I would also argue that the previous government for certain had the intention that removing the ability to buy ticket son board was also part of an agenda to remove on board staff like guards from trains as a way of reducing staffing costs.
Here is a map of the Norther Network as it is now showing most routes as Penalty Fare routes (a few years ago this map would have had less red coloured lines on it as they would roll out Penalty Fares as the route got ticket machines installed route by route I expect)
Any stations where Penalty Fares can be charged if you board at them is required to have warning posters stating this (you may or may not have seen these posters)
There are exemptions to being forced to use a Ticket Machine before you board a train, and you are not required to buy a ticket on line if you do not wish to, despite the way that the WM Trains website linked above suggests you should)
broadly speaking those exceptions are:
- no working ticket machine at the station you board at and no open ticket office (best to take a picture to prove it if it happens to you)
- no ability to pay in cash when you wish to only pay by cash (ie a ticket machine that does not accept cash) - it is often necessary to obtain a 'Permit to Travel' slip from the ticket machine to prove you tried to buy a ticket (this is the case with Northern, possibly not with WM Trains)
- having a disability that means you can not use a Ticket Vending Machine
And yes, if you don't leave enough time to buy a ticket before boarding I assume the railway company does indeed expect you to miss the train.
All part of the 'hostile environment policy' I fear.
The rules are extremely complex and appeals can be made on grounds such as that the wording on the notice is not exactly correct, so for best chances at appeal it’s really important that we see the full notice. Can you compress the image and try again?
Totally understand the ‘have ticket before you board’ rule/law, but it’s not surprising that people get confused. You get on a train day after day and the guard sells you a ticket, then boom, penalty fare. I was on a Chiltern train heading towards Birmingham recently. A woman got on at Warwick Parkway without a ticket (was running late and didn’t have time to buy a ticket). The TM just just sold her a ticket. No word of warning about buying a ticket before you board. Really not surprising with lack of consistency.
recently travelled on TFW on the marches and they were selling tickets on the train . seems very unfair to just penalise people, and is another way of putting people off rail travel, who genuinely will pay the fare and just want to buy a ticket from a Human being who can maybe advise on Journey , when to change etc , as opposed to an app , vending machine , or third party whose data will be scrutinised and used against you
Totally understand the ‘have ticket before you board’ rule/law, but it’s not surprising that people get confused. You get on a train day after day and the guard sells you a ticket, then boom, penalty fare. I was on a Chiltern train heading towards Birmingham recently. A woman got on at Warwick Parkway without a ticket (was running late and didn’t have time to buy a ticket). The TM just just sold her a ticket. No word of warning about buying a ticket before you board. Really not surprising with lack of consistency.
As far as I'm aware, Chiltern Train Managers aren't trained to issue Penalty Fares.
Though given Warwick Parkway has both a Ticket Office (though it closes at 1840 Monday to Friday, 1640 on Saturdays and 1600 on Sundays) the TM may have been entitled to only sell an undiscounted Anytime Single to a station served by the train they were on, in accordance with Condition 9.2.1 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel.
As has been pointed out on the forum many times by guards, giving a verbal warning is frequently met with a mouthful of abuse, hence they give up on warning people.
The answer to one of your questions being, yes, if you don't give yourself time to purchase at the station, then you are expected to miss that train and catch the next one once you have a valid ticket for that train.
As far as I'm aware, Chiltern Train Managers aren't trained to issue Penalty Fares.
Though given Warwick Parkway has both a Ticket Office (though it closes at 1840 Monday to Friday, 1640 on Saturdays and 1600 on Sundays) the TM may have been entitled to only sell an undiscounted Anytime Single to a station served by the train they were on, in accordance with Condition 9.2.1 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel.
You would be correct regarding Chiltern TM's. They have separate revenue protection officers who would dish out the fines and not be able to sell tickets... TMs would happily sell you a ticket on board.
As has been pointed out on the forum many times by guards, giving a verbal warning is frequently met with a mouthful of abuse, hence they give up on warning people.
With all the options available to buy a ticket there is rarely a situation where someone "didn't have the opportunity to buy one as they were running late". It's the person's responsibility not the guards to inform them.
The "Penalty Fare Warning" variants of ticket stock were withdrawn when the PF level in England increased to £100 + the Single fare and have yet to return.
Totally understand the ‘have ticket before you board’ rule/law, but it’s not surprising that people get confused. You get on a train day after day and the guard sells you a ticket, then boom, penalty fare. I was on a Chiltern train heading towards Birmingham recently. A woman got on at Warwick Parkway without a ticket (was running late and didn’t have time to buy a ticket). The TM just just sold her a ticket. No word of warning about buying a ticket before you board. Really not surprising with lack of consistency.
It's really frustrating for passengers that there is no consistency. A fine seems so unfair when you've been able to buy a ticket on the previous times.
Personally I think buying on board should be eliminated entirely to make it fair, though I'd be a bit flexible if you are buying online after boarding.
It's really frustrating for passengers that there is no consistency. A fine seems so unfair when you've been able to buy a ticket on the previous times.
Personally I think buying on board should be eliminated entirely to make it fair, though I'd be a bit flexible if you are buying online after boarding.
Buying on board should clearly be possible if boarding from a station without (working) ticket buying facilities - and there will be stations where providing a TVM is simply not worth the cost.
It's really frustrating for passengers that there is no consistency. A fine seems so unfair when you've been able to buy a ticket on the previous times.
Personally I think buying on board should be eliminated entirely to make it fair, though I'd be a bit flexible if you are buying online after boarding.
With a forthcoming change to the Conditions of Travel, the situation will be that if you buy an online ticket after boarding then the ticket will not be valid and you will be treated as though you had no ticket at all.
No, I would prefer the expectation to be that you have to have a ticket to get on a train.
Rather than what we have at the moment which is that people like the original poster get on thinking it's ok, then are told it is against the rules despite it being facilitated by train crew for their whole lives.
For the tiny number of stations where there are no machines or booking offices there could be exceptions, even though probably buying online is possible for virtually everyone in 2025.
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Just to say:
woah - there are many, many people for whom this is not an option in 2025 believe me (you are not going to find them on an internet forum though). Lots of people on the wrong side of the digital divide even if you might not know many.
Even if you can access the internet OK, it can be argued that for some people, using it to buy things on line puts them at risk of scams and fraud too.
