Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

[Robski]

GTR publicity has been published: https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/service-updates/rail-fares-have-changed

Changes to rail fares​

Fare changes from Sunday 7 December 2025

From Sunday 7th December fares at 11 Southern Railway, seven Great Northern, and three Thameslink stations will be simplified in preparation for pay as you go with contactless commencing on Sunday 14th December. The simplification ensures each station within the expanded area has a single peak and off-peak fare to eligible destinations.

These stations are:

Southern Ashtead Box Hill & Westhumble Dorking (Main) Dormans East Grinstead Hurst Green Leatherhead Lingfield Oxted Reigate Woldingam

Great Northern Baldock Hitchin Knebworth Letchworth Garden City Stevenage Watton-at-Stone Welwyn North

Thameslink Harlington Leagrave Luton

Find out more information on pay as you go with contactless.

Frequently asked questions​

Why does the rollout of pay as you go with contactless mean fares for tickets have changed?​

Pay as you go with contactless fares are based on a single journey between two stations. To keep the price of tickets and pay as you go with contactless as similar as possible, Single tickets now cost around half the price of a Return ticket, whether you pay as you go or buy a ticket for your journey.
We’ve also aligned evening peak restrictions on tickets and pay as you go with contactless, for journeys where pay as you go with contactless is available. Evening peak times apply 16.00 to 19.00, Monday to Friday, if you are travelling from or via a London station.
Evening peak times do not apply to Day Travelcards.

Can I still buy a Return ticket?​

Yes, you can still buy Return tickets.
On journeys where pay as you go with contactless is available, Single tickets now cost around half the price of a Return ticket, whether you pay as you go or buy a ticket for your journey.
It may be cheaper to buy two Single tickets or pay as you go with contactless rather than buying a Return ticket, on journeys where pay as you go with contactless is available.
For example, if you make a peak journey in one direction and an off-peak journey in the other, then an Anytime Day Single plus an Off-Peak Day Single will be cheaper than an Anytime Day Return.
When you pay as you go with contactless, you'll be charged the best adult fare for your journey on the day and time of your travel.

Can I still buy a Period Off-Peak, Super Off-Peak or Off-Peak carnet ticket?​

To keep the price of tickets and pay as you go with contactless as similar as possible, these ticket types are no longer available on journeys where pay as you go with contactless is available. You will either be charged a peak or off-peak fare instead.
Off-peak fares have also been reduced to reflect the removal of Super Off-Peak tickets.

Is pay as you go with contactless the cheapest option for me?​

It depends on how often you travel and if you are eligible for a discount on your train ticket.
When you use pay as you go with contactless, you’ll be charged the best adult fare for your journey on the day and time of your travel. For most people, this fare is the same as a ticket bought on the day. If you make multiple journeys into or within London, you could also benefit from daily and Monday to Sunday capping.
Pay as you go with contactless may not always be the cheapest way to pay for your journey. For example:

• If you have a Railcard or are eligible for other discounts (like a Child discount), it may be cheaper to buy a ticket for your journey. Currently discounts cannot be applied to pay as you go with contactless.
• If you make the same journey regularly, buying a Season ticket (Weekly, Monthly, Annual or Flexi) may be better value.
• In some cases, you may find a cheaper fare if you book your ticket in advance of your journey.

On a similar note, I have noticed that GTR has introduced advance tickets between Stevenage and London. They are similarly priced to the LNER advance fares.

I am far from convinced by this theory. The restriction only gives flexibility for setting down in the southbound direction, as departures after the northbound pick up are still controlled by the timetable. I don't see that there would be any significant difference to dwell time either. But LNER doesn't want to be part of Oval, having spent several years understanding the impacts of it.

According to LNER they anticipate a saving of 45 seconds per call. I suppose the saving is that they don't have to wait for people to get on, which does sometimes extend dwells, but if a timetable really depends on 45 second savings then I don't hold out much hope for it holding together!

They don't want to fill a long distance train with people only going to Stevenage any more than GWR would want to fill a Plymouth service with people only going to Maidenhead ?

If LNER really didn't want the custom then they wouldn't be undercutting the GTR set fares.

In fact, some LNER-only fares are still in the system post-Oval despite them only being valid for a week!

 

[Hadders]

They don't want to fill a long distance train with people only going to Stevenage any more than GWR would want to fill a Plymouth service with people only going to Maidenhead ?

Ah that old chestnut.

Anyone boarding a northbound service at Stevenage (of which there is an increaing number) means an empty seat between Kings Cross and Stevenage. Might as well use that precious capacity.

You'd expect the 18:33 LNER service to be packed given it's first stop Stevenage. It carries fresh air. On Tuesday this week there were just 10 passengers in coach C. On Wednesday it was 20.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Nov 2025 ==

I have noticed that GTR has introduced advance tickets between Stevenage and London.

Frankly, Advance tickets between Stevenage and London is ridiculous. I suspect many will be misused, especially on the return from London after a day out.

Furthermore, Advance tickets in the contactless area is plain bonkers.

I also notice tonight that GTR have put large window graphics on the concourse at Stevenage encouraging people to buy tickets on their app. You'd have thought they'd be pushing contactless....

 

[Sleepy]

Ah that old chestnut.

Anyone boarding a northbound service at Stevenage (of which there is an increaing number) means an empty seat between Kings Cross and Stevenage. Might as well use that precious capacity.

You'd expect the 18:33 LNER service to be packed given it's first stop Stevenage. It carries fresh air. On Tuesday this week there were just 10 passengers in coach C. On Wednesday it was 20.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Nov 2025 ==


Frankly, Advance tickets between Stevenage and London is ridiculous. I suspect many will be misused, especially on the return from London after a day out.

Furthermore, Advance tickets in the contactless area is plain bonkers.

I also notice tonight that GTR have put large window graphics on the concourse at Stevenage encouraging people to buy tickets on their app. You'd have thought they'd be pushing contactless....

Well if the 1833 is so quiet then no reason at all for it to be made pick up only call - if LNER don't want to be involved in Oval then let GTR staff at Stevenage deal with the people that haven't touched in same as they do for their own services ? As for introducing Advance fares don't get me started .........

 

[Haywain]

According to LNER they anticipate a saving of 45 seconds per call. I suppose the saving is that they don't have to wait for people to get on,

That only works in the southbound direction where a time saving might be marginally useful. Northbound they do have to wait because the scheduled time is that of departure - so if they can leave on time now there will be no difference in a few weeks time.

 

[Roast Veg]

According to LNER they anticipate a saving of 45 seconds per call. I suppose the saving is that they don't have to wait for people to get on, which does sometimes extend dwells, but if a timetable really depends on 45 second savings then I don't hold out much hope for it holding together!

That only works in the southbound direction where a time saving might be marginally useful. Northbound they do have to wait because the scheduled time is that of departure - so if they can leave on time now there will be no difference in a few weeks time.

If it allows a scheduled call at Stevenage to have its dwell reduced from 2 minutes 30 (per the current working timetable) to only 1 minute, then that turns out to be quite a saving.

 

[Hadders]

If it allows a scheduled call at Stevenage to have its dwell reduced from 2 minutes 30 (per the current working timetable) to only 1 minute, then that turns out to be quite a saving.

Except that’s not what’s showing in the working timetable.

Im any case how is it going to be enforced? Are you familiar with the layout at Stevenage station?

 

[Haywain]

So the actual change from 2 minutes to 2 minutes achieves, err, nothing.

 

[ClivePage]

One adverse change that I've just realised for travel from Project Oval stations is that the new proliferation of Advanced tickets makes it much harder to buy a return ticket online. We often travel off-peak from Luton to a London Thameslink station. As holders of Railcards it would be more expensive to use contactless travel except for our rare trips before 09:30. So we buy tickets. To avoid a queue at the ticket office we normally buy online and either collect a cardboard ticket at a station ticket machine (if we can find one working, they are awfully unreliable) or print a barcoded ticket at home.

But in the new pricing regime the online sales sites such as Thameslink and (I regret to say) this Railforums ticket site, all the obvious options are for buying two advanced singles. On this line with 8 trains/hour for much of the day, restricting ourselves to a specific train makes no sense, particularly on the return leg when timings are always uncertain. But on all ticket sales sites you have to first choose nominal trains to travel on each way, knowing that you will probably not use them, then avoid all the prominent options on the screen and click on an inconspicuous line saying "See all available fares" (Thameslink) or "change ticket selection" (railforums), and then on the next screen scroll down to find (3rd out of 6 options on Railforums) a ticket at the usual price. This has helpfully been renamed off-peak day return when it used to be a super off-peak day return, no doubt as a side effect of Oval. I don't suppose this additional complexity of the buying process is designed to put people off making train journeys, but it certainly looks that way.

In my view it makes absolutely no sense to offer advanced and therefore totally inflexible tickets on routes with 8 trains/hour, especially on the Thameslink routes when so many trains get delayed or cancelled. If GBR wants to simplify the fare system it could start by abolishing all these. If would be even better if it asked its programmers to get on with making Railcard discounts available on contactless travel which it has been promising for years and years. If could even ask TfL how it does this in London since it's been available on Oyster cards for at least a decade.

 

[swt_passenger]

If would be even better if it asked its programmers to get on with making Railcard discounts available on contactless travel which it has been promising for years and years. If could even ask TfL how it does this in London since it's been available on Oyster cards for at least a decade.

Contactless in the Oval area is run by TfL and their programmers, not GBR. Railcards (but just a subset) are only available on Oyster because they can set a railcard discount flag on the individual’s physical Oyster Card; this can’t be done with a bank owned card. But I thought this was widely known?

TfL are still saying railcards on contactless is something for the future. Although railcards applying to one person are potentially relatively straightforward, I think allowing for multiple random people and their children, such as the Friends and Family does, will almost certainly be in the far too difficult pile.

 

[Table 25]

Apologies for going off-topic, but further to the above, I have heard it said on good authority that the LNER dwell times at Stevenage were to be reduced to a mere 45 seconds from the December timetable change and that this was a major reason for making calls pick up and set down only. Reading some recent posts above, this does not appear to be the case. Has anyone on here carried out a full analysis of LNER WTT dwell times at Stevenage from December please and if so, would you be willing to post your findings please? If dwell times are unchanged or little changed it makes me very dubious of the justification for the change in terms of the practicalities of managing Stevenage calls and does indeed make me wonder if Oval has a lot more to do with it than we have been officially told. I think that we really need a straight answer on this.

 

[Kite159]

..

Frankly, Advance tickets between Stevenage and London is ridiculous. I suspect many will be misused, especially on the return from London after a day out.

Furthermore, Advance tickets in the contactless area is plain bonkers.

Agreed, or cause issues at the gateline of St Pancras (or Kings Cross) if Govia set them to reject all advance tickets and the poorly trained gateline staff just waves someone through with an advance for a train 2 hours earlier (or 2 hours later) without bothering to actually check the ticket and that passenger runs into revenue protection.

 

[Richardr]

In my view it makes absolutely no sense to offer advanced and therefore totally inflexible tickets on routes with 8 trains/hour, especially on the Thameslink routes when so many trains get delayed or cancelled. If GBR wants to simplify the fare system it could start by abolishing all these. If would be even better if it asked its programmers to get on with making Railcard discounts available on contactless travel which it has been promising for years and years. If could even ask TfL how it does this in London since it's been available on Oyster cards for at least a decade.

I agree with you re advance tickets. I've assumed they were introduced so that the government can say that the lowest price hasn't changed under contactless, but that is my cynical view.

On railcard discounts they are available [and not just some of them] on KeyGo cards, Thameslink's closest equivalent to Oyster. It is on credit / debit cards that they are not available on contactless, either in London, or the TfL run Project Oval.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Today, they sent another email with an updated list containing additional stations. The complete list is:
• Addlestone
• Ascot
• Bookham
• Bracknell
• Byfleet & New Haw
• Chertsey
• Clandon
• Claygate
• Cobham & Stoke D'Abernon
• Earley
• Effingham Junction
• Esher
• Guildford
• Hersham
• Hinchley Wood
• Horsley
• London Road (Guildford)
• Longcross
• Martins Heron
• Oxshott
• Sunningdale
• Walton-on-Thames
• West Byfleet
• Weybridge
• Winnersh
• Winnersh Triangle
• Woking
• Wokingham
• Worplesdon

This is all remaining stations served by direct SWR trains from London Waterloo to Reading, Weybridge, Woking and Guildford. It does not include Bagshot, Camberley, Frimley, Ash Vale, Aldershot, Farnham, Bentley, Alton, Brookwood, Farnborough Main or any North Downs Line stations not otherwise included. Perhaps those stations will be dropped from Project Oval. As long as Project Oval involves the introduction of weekday afternoon peak fares and fails to support Railcard discounts with contactless I do not think users of those stations will be clamouring for contactless to be extended to their stations.

 

[JonathanH]

As long as Project Oval involves the introduction of weekday afternoon peak fares and fails to support Railcard discounts with contactless I do not think users of those stations will be clamouring for contactless to be extended to their stations.

Not all users of the railway are leisure travellers who make their journeys between 0900 and 1000 on a weekday, returning between 1600 and 1900. There is still a lot of clamour for Contactless to be extended.

 

[BayPaul]

Not all users of the railway are leisure travellers who make their journeys between 0900 and 1000 on a weekday, returning between 1600 and 1900. There is still a lot of clamour for Contactless to be extended.

For the North Downs line in particular, contactless travel to Gatwick would be a big improvement, especially as I'm sure many people are already using it, unaware that while the stations at each end of the line have readers it shouldn't be used on that route.

 

[Edvid]

For the North Downs line in particular, contactless travel to Gatwick would be a big improvement

The as yet undated extensions implied by recent SWR emails would fill most of the gap between the CPAY area (as of 14 December) and the North Downs Line, converting Reading - Wokingham directly and enabling Reigate - Guildford to convert in future. Guildford - Wokingham would still be dependent on prior extensions from Ascot/Woking/Guildford to Aldershot, at the least.

 

[jon0844]

I'm sure most people won't be aware that contactless will bring about large increases in fares, and just see it as ''contactless is good''

I agree. Plenty of people tap cards on a weekend when a super off-peak ticket would have been cheaper, and plenty of school children tap despite that meaning they're paying adult fares.

It's amazing how much more people will pay for convenience, yet I am sure all of them would moan about high fares even if cheaper options exist for not that much work.

 

[jfollows]

Apologies for going off-topic, but further to the above, I have heard it said on good authority that the LNER dwell times at Stevenage were to be reduced to a mere 45 seconds from the December timetable change and that this was a major reason for making calls pick up and set down only. Reading some recent posts above, this does not appear to be the case. Has anyone on here carried out a full analysis of LNER WTT dwell times at Stevenage from December please and if so, would you be willing to post your findings please? If dwell times are unchanged or little changed it makes me very dubious of the justification for the change in terms of the practicalities of managing Stevenage calls and does indeed make me wonder if Oval has a lot more to do with it than we have been officially told. I think that we really need a straight answer on this.

Dwell times are unchanged, you can see them in the attached file. From https://www.networkrail.co.uk/industry-and-commercial/the-timetable/working-timetable/
The national rail working timetable doesn’t do quarter minutes anyway.
The timetable planning rules, eg https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/operational-rules/Operational Rules/TPR documents/TPR 2026/V1/TPR 2026 V1 LNE.pdf, say

LNER all services 2 – May be reduced to 1½ with prior agreement between Network Rail and Train Operator

explicitly for Stevenage.

 

[ClivePage]

Contactless in the Oval area is run by TfL and their programmers, not GBR. Railcards (but just a subset) are only available on Oyster because they can set a railcard discount flag on the individual’s physical Oyster Card; this can’t be done with a bank owned card. But I thought this was widely known?

TfL are still saying railcards on contactless is something for the future. Although railcards applying to one person are potentially relatively straightforward, I think allowing for multiple random people and their children, such as the Friends and Family does, will almost certainly be in the far too difficult pile.

But a (version 2) Oyster Card just stores a token which identifies the Oyster account in their database (version 1 stored the value on the card, as I understand it). So I don't see why a Bank card (debit or credit) which is just another sort of token can't be linked to account which might have a Railcard discount flag. I can see that some railcards allowing multiple users and children constitute a more complicated case, but setting it up so that the simpler cases are supported seems to me to present very little difficulty.

 

[JamesT]

But a (version 2) Oyster Card just stores a token which identifies the Oyster account in their database (version 1 stored the value on the card, as I understand it). So I don't see why a Bank card (debit or credit) which is just another sort of token can't be linked to account which might have a Railcard discount flag. I can see that some railcards allowing multiple users and children constitute a more complicated case, but setting it up so that the simpler cases are supported seems to me to present very little difficulty.

My understanding is that all Oyster cards still work by storing the value on the card. Switching to a model where Oyster is just a token has been talked about for many years, but not actually implemented.

 

[SynthD]

But a (version 2) Oyster Card just stores a token which identifies the Oyster account in their database (version 1 stored the value on the card, as I understand it). So I don't see why a Bank card (debit or credit) which is just another sort of token can't be linked to account which might have a Railcard discount flag. I can see that some railcards allowing multiple users and children constitute a more complicated case, but setting it up so that the simpler cases are supported seems to me to present very little difficulty.

That works for the automated end of day process, but not the manual mid-journey checks. The DfT wants the revenue protection staff to know if they should ask to see the railcard. There is a deny list of blocked cards, and it is considered acceptable for this to be hours out of date. A similar, far larger, list of bank cards with associated railcards, with a similar acceptance of timeliness for offline use appears to be not good enough for the DfT.

 

[Adam Williams]

That works for the automated end of day process, but not the manual mid-journey checks. The DfT wants the revenue protection staff to know if they should ask to see the railcard. There is a deny list of blocked cards, and it is considered acceptable for this to be hours out of date. A similar, far larger, list of bank cards with associated railcards, with a similar acceptance of timeliness for offline use appears to be not good enough for the DfT.

TfL should make RID2 do online checks using the FPAN and crack on with the long overdue, behind schedule expansion of mobile coverage then. It's not beyond the wit of man; if the will was there it could've been done about half a decade ago. All I ever hear about this topic are excuses trotted out without any real consideration for the passenger experience.

RID2: TfL's revenue inspection device
FPAN: TfL get privileged access to the funding card number, and can use this to associate Railcards with an underlying payment card (whilst still ensuring it works with virtual cards from wallets)

 

[Haywain]

Dwell times are unchanged, you can see them in the attached file. From https://www.networkrail.co.uk/industry-and-commercial/the-timetable/working-timetable/
The national rail working timetable doesn’t do quarter minutes anyway.
The timetable planning rules, eg https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/operational-rules/Operational Rules/TPR documents/TPR 2026/V1/TPR 2026 V1 LNE.pdf, say

explicitly for Stevenage.

Confirming my point that the only gain of the change is not having to wait for (public) departure times in the southbound direction.

 

[CyrusWuff]

But a (version 2) Oyster Card just stores a token which identifies the Oyster account in their database (version 1 stored the value on the card, as I understand it). So I don't see why a Bank card (debit or credit) which is just another sort of token can't be linked to account which might have a Railcard discount flag. I can see that some railcards allowing multiple users and children constitute a more complicated case, but setting it up so that the simpler cases are supported seems to me to present very little difficulty.

The difference between original and current Oyster cards is the chip they contain. Original cards used MiFare Classic chips, which are relatively trivial to hack, whereas the current cards use 2K DESFire chips. They're functionally the same from a customer point of view.

It's possible TfL may migrate to a standard ITSO Smartcard in the future, though that could result in only one discount being able to be set on the card.

 

[Haywain]

though that could result in only one discount being able to be set on the card.

Are you suggesting that current cards can have more than one discount set?

 

[Hadders]

Are you suggesting that current cards can have more than one discount set?

Yes, I had two discounts set on my Oyster card at one point earlier this year!

 

[MrJeeves]

Are you suggesting that current cards can have more than one discount set?

Yes, up to 3 total.

 

[Haywain]

Yes, I had two discounts set on my Oyster card at one point earlier this year!

When I had two discounts I had two cards. I wouldn't have had too much faith in the discounts being applied correctly otherwise.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Nov 2025 ==

Yes, I had two discounts set on my Oyster card at one point earlier this year!

What discounts, out of interest?

 

[Sonic1234]

It's amazing how much more people will pay for convenience, yet I am sure all of them would moan about high fares even if cheaper options exist for not that much work.

Yes, I'm always amazed at how highly people value convenience. Getting a ticket online/in an app or serving yourself a ticket from a TVM isn't exactly hard.

One benefit of contactless is that for some journeys the default fare will be a lower price than for the route actually taken e.g. if you go via London, not pass through any gates and the default fare is set as the Not Via London fare.

 

[MikeWh]

What discounts, out of interest?

One set that does go together is Student 18+ which has 30% discount on travelcards and can also have National Railcard for off-peak fares/caps.