New rail lines in Scotland

[N1]

Ok, Okehampton Parkway, £15m. Hairmyres, £16m. East Linton, £15m. Reading Green Park £16m. Allhistoric costs (even Okehampton Parkway), allow for inflation ot future construction costs…

And Balgray for £18.3m at latest budget. Does Hairmyres at £16m cover the extra cost to Transport Scotland to fund the car park that South Lanarkshire council were originally supposed to fund. I suppose all the above had some amount of land used to create car parks, but Halbeath would probably need more (much more) parking capacity with a station.

 

[najaB]

I suppose all the above had some amount of land used to create car parks, but Halbeath would probably need more (much more) parking capacity with a station.

I don't imagine it would need that much more, mostly people would shift from bus to train.

 

[N1]

I don't imagine it would need that much more, mostly people would shift from bus to train.

True, although the journey times wouldn't be much different, and NEC holders will probably still use the bus. There might be some shift from people using Ferrytoll. There are many people who just won't consider a bus/coach but will take the train, even if the actual public transport offering isn't really different.

 

[Falcon1200]

I'm also not sure the rules would actually allow a station in the middle of an unsignalled single line section, so someone might need to pay for intermediate signal sections on this line before any station.

There are plenty of stations on such single lines already; Whinhill, Drumfrochar, Branchton and Inverkip to name four on one route! The performance and timetabling issues might well be a problem, however.

 

[waverley47]

There are plenty of stations on such single lines already; Whinhill, Drumfrochar, Branchton and Inverkip to name four on one route! The performance and timetabling issues might well be a problem, however.

Why would this be?

I'm sure I read somewhere that all new stations needed to have a signal protecting the station within a certain distance. I'm not sure if that was an actual change, or merely a floated one, but I guess that it could be worked around regardless.

 

[318266]

I can't remember if there were any solid numbers posted the last time this came up. How much of a demand would there be for services on this line if it was upgraded to passenger standards? How much would it likely cost to do so?

There is a notable demand for transport for Glasgow <> Fife, a corridor that is largely dominated by cars - yet even still leads itself to Stagecoach providing a 2 coaches per hour/162 seats per hour service along that corridor via Cumbernauld, Larbert and Kincardine, which at peak times can run full.

Before 2020, there was a peak time run serving the corridor, albeit via the coast: 1N80 0712 SX Kirkcaldy - Glasgow QS and 1N79 1733 SX Glasgow QS - Markinch. Whilst this has now about to become rematerialised in a somewhat bastardised form as a return from Glasgow QS to Dundee via Dunfermline, both run in the evening too late for the main commuter traffic regardless (albeit retaining the same headcodes).

Having a battery-electric service (as the acceleration savings are similar) from Glasgow to Leven running roughly hourly, if permissible, as an extension of the present Alloa service would most likely create more modal shift from car than some in this thread seem to realise.

In theory, could the south curve be built to bypass Charlestown Jn and then one of (if not both) of the two north facing bays at Stirling be resignalled for passenger use such that a peak hour SX run could be used for Stirling - Edinburgh via Kincardine, to give those places a single extra service, or is the Forth bridge already too crowded/other financial reason.

 

[Tester]

I'm sure I read somewhere that all new stations needed to have a signal protecting the station within a certain distance. I'm not sure if that was an actual change, or merely a floated one, but I guess that it could be worked around regardless.

Such a rule only makes sense from a, "How can we make this as expensive as possible", point of view.

It may be beneficial (on its merits) from a headway perspective, but fundamentally stations are irrelevant to signalling.

 

[The exile]

If memory serves correct, the railway is on an embankment as it passes the site of the park-n-ride so it might be possible to go under the railway rather than over it.

If there isn’t already an underpass (like there was at Warwick Parkway) putting one in will be even more expensive.

 

[najaB]

If there isn’t already an underpass (like there was at Warwick Parkway) putting one in will be even more expensive.

It'll be significantly less expensive than an overbridge with lifts if recent experience is anything to go by. It may well also be significantly less disruptive to the railway as well given the example of putting a bridge under a four-track section of the WCML in just nine days. Given the much smaller scope, it would probably not take all of a long weekend.

 

[Zomboid]

If there's a level change then it'll need lifts or ramps. Doesn't matter which way is up.

Maybe an underpass would be cheaper, maybe a bridge would, they both have different advantages and disadvantages. But both will be expensive.

 

[najaB]

If there's a level change then it'll need lifts or ramps. Doesn't matter which way is up.

Naturally so.

Maybe an underpass would be cheaper, maybe a bridge would, they both have different advantages and disadvantages. But both will be expensive.

A plain bridge and ramps would be in the same range as an underpass and ramps. But once you start putting lifts in then it's hugely more expensive - both in capital and operational terms.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Dunfermline to Alloa, If it happens, which is a big if, it will be on the other side of 2032. It's too much nothingness, too awkward to serve Edinburgh directly, which is the much greater demand; as a rule there isn't much demand for services between small provincial settlements.

It's in the same boat as Grangemouth and Kilmalcolm, being a theoretical easy extension of an existing service, but with a surprising amount of infrastructure needed, and just not enough demand to make it work.

A nicely landscaped mini new town on the Longannet site with this rail reopening to serve it would make sense. It has good road access, the land is cheap and potential for decent rail journey times towards Glasgow and to Edinburgh with a guaranteed and well timed connection at Dunfermline.

 

[jeffinabox]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...rope-would-reopen-if-new-plans-backed-5396752

https://queensferryone.co.uk/a-key-step-forward-for-the-forth-green-freeport/

Could the Rosyth dockyard line reopen for freight and passengers to link with the proposed ferry?
The freeport proposals seem to still be bubbling away, which included a rail link in the promotional video a few years ago.

 

[najaB]

Could the Rosyth dockyard line reopen for freight and passengers to link with the proposed ferry?

It could do, yes. Officially it's only OOU rather than being completely abandoned, though it appears that the switch was plain-lined a while back. There is a question of if it would be worth it though, given the difficulty using it for trains to/from Edinburgh.

 

[Elwyn]

Previous failed efforts to make this route work suggest a timetable of 3 or 4 times a week. Nearly all the freight will be on unaccompanied trailers or lorries. Most passengers will be in cars. The foot passenger numbers will not be large. A minibus or two will likely cope with them all.

So will a railway be required to transport minimal unaccompanied freight and minimal foot passengers into Edinburgh 3 or times a week? No.

This is a Scottish political prestige project that makes little real commercial business sense and will end up in the long grass.

 

[daodao]

A nicely landscaped mini new town on the Longannet site with this rail reopening to serve it would make sense. It has good road access, the land is cheap and potential for decent rail journey times towards Glasgow and to Edinburgh with a guaranteed and well timed connection at Dunfermline.

Unfortunately, the surviving line from Alloa to Dunfermline is too slow and roundabout to be a useful through route. There is little future potential for significant local traffic or originating traffic to either Edinburgh or Glasgow. Now that Longannet power station has closed, it might as well be abandoned completely.

 

[SoloSR334022]

It could do, yes. Officially it's only OOU rather than being completely abandoned, though it appears that the switch was plain-lined a while back. There is a question of if it would be worth it though, given the difficulty using it for trains to/from Edinburgh.

I believe it's actually been disconnected.

 

[najaB]

I believe it's actually been disconnected.

Yeah, it did look like that the last time I passed during daylight. However I just downloaded the latest Sectional Appendix copy and it's still listed as 'temporarily OOU' so technically is still a live railway, rather than having been abandoned.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Unfortunately, the surviving line from Alloa to Dunfermline is too slow and roundabout to be a useful through route. There is little future potential for significant local traffic or originating traffic to either Edinburgh or Glasgow. Now that Longannet power station has closed, it might as well be abandoned completely.

You're welcome to your opinion, but I disagree with it.
The Longannet site could well be used as a freely and cheaply available larger site for a sizeable housing development to relieve the severe housing crisis in Edinburgh and Glasgow.
There aren't many other similar sites closer to either of the 2 cities, and it isn't necessary a priority that journey times are super quick - new towns like Glenrothes and Irvine are further out, but served their main purpose of housing people struggling with the cost, quality & availability of housing closer to or actually in the cities.

 

[daodao]

You're welcome to your opinion, but I disagree with it.
The Longannet site could well be used as a freely and cheaply available larger site for a sizeable housing development to relieve the severe housing crisis in Edinburgh and Glasgow.
There aren't many other similar sites closer to either of the 2 cities, and it isn't necessary a priority that journey times are super quick - new towns like Glenrothes and Irvine are further out, but served their main purpose of housing people struggling with the cost, quality & availability of housing closer to or actually in the cities.

It is better to build new housing developments close to existing railway lines with regular passenger services, and if there isn't a station close by, a new station costs substantially less than a new or reopened line.

While housing in or near Edinburgh may be limited/expensive, is this really true in the Strathclyde conurbation?

 

[najaB]

It is better to build new housing developments close to existing railway lines with regular passenger services, and if there isn't a station close by, a new station costs substantially less than a new or reopened line.

It's better, yes. However there aren't that many brownfield sites calling out for reuse.

 

[318266]

It is better to build new housing developments close to existing railway lines with regular passenger services, and if there isn't a station close by, a new station costs substantially less than a new or reopened line.

While housing in or near Edinburgh may be limited/expensive, is this really true in the Strathclyde conurbation?

Strathclyde has a significantly larger "suburban commuter belt" - thanks in part to its strong motorway and electric suburban railway network in comparison to Edinburgh's comparatively slow bus network and largely slower diesel railway network. Both Glasgow and Edinburgh have high prices in their respective conurbations - with the main exception of certain areas unfortunate to be rife with crime and deprivation, which is significantly more common in Greater Glasgow than Edinburgh - even if large strides have been made in such improvement in recent years. Prices are starting to rise around the

Outwith the conurbations, however, the prices tend to drop much faster with regards to Glasgow than to Edinburgh - although this is likely more to do with the higher deprivation in certain parts of Lanarkshire, Inverclyde and Renfrewshire compared to the likes of the Lothians.

The area seemingly available at Longannet is quite vast, and if fully utilised (or even only a fair portion of it was) there would easily be sufficient demand for a rail link to both cities, which could be served as I believe I have mentioned previously in this thread. The largest obstacle I would wager is pathing over the Forth Rail Bridge and around Fife.

 

[Carntyne]

Strathclyde has a significantly larger "suburban commuter belt" - thanks in part to its strong motorway and electric suburban railway network in comparison to Edinburgh's comparatively slow bus network and largely slower diesel railway network. Both Glasgow and Edinburgh have high prices in their respective conurbations - with the main exception of certain areas unfortunate to be rife with crime and deprivation, which is significantly more common in Greater Glasgow than Edinburgh - even if large strides have been made in such improvement in recent years. Prices are starting to rise around the

Outwith the conurbations, however, the prices tend to drop much faster with regards to Glasgow than to Edinburgh - although this is likely more to do with the higher deprivation in certain parts of Lanarkshire, Inverclyde and Renfrewshire compared to the likes of the Lothians.

The area seemingly available at Longannet is quite vast, and if fully utilised (or even only a fair portion of it was) there would easily be sufficient demand for a rail link to both cities, which could be served as I believe I have mentioned previously in this thread. The largest obstacle I would wager is pathing over the Forth Rail Bridge and around Fife.

I don't believe that building homes in Longannet will lessen demand on Edinburgh or Glasgow. It's in the middle of nowhere.

Projects like Balgray are much better sense, building homes where people want them, on existing railway lines, which will see a brand new, expanded train fleet in the next 5 years.

 

[Falcon1200]

I don't believe that building homes in Longannet will lessen demand on Edinburgh or Glasgow. It's in the middle of nowhere.

I agree. The journey time from Longannet to Glasgow would not be short, and longer to Edinburgh given that a reversal or scenic tour of Fife would be required.

Regarding house prices in Glasgow, there are surely still tenement flats at a reasonable cost - I bought my first such home in Cathcart for £12,500! (In 1984, admittedly).

 

[Southsider]

I agree. The journey time from Longannet to Glasgow would not be short, and longer to Edinburgh given that a reversal or scenic tour of Fife would be required.

Regarding house prices in Glasgow, there are surely still tenement flats at a reasonable cost - I bought my first such home in Cathcart for £12,500! (In 1984, admittedly).

Just up the road at Muirend they’re hitting £200K now.

 

[jadmor]

Yeah, it did look like that the last time I passed during daylight. However I just downloaded the latest Sectional Appendix copy and it's still listed as 'temporarily OOU' so technically is still a live railway, rather than having been abandoned.

Rosyth branch It was definitely plain lined on my last visit around May, and the foot crossing gates to the car park south of the station have been sealed permanently open. A lot of money must have been spent on retaining the route when the new Queensferry crossing approach roads were built; it would be a shame to see that wasted.

edited for clarity

 

[AlastairFraser]

It is better to build new housing developments close to existing railway lines with regular passenger services, and if there isn't a station close by, a new station costs substantially less than a new or reopened line.

While housing in or near Edinburgh may be limited/expensive, is this really true in the Strathclyde conurbation?

There aren't many locations left on lines with regular passenger service that would be suitable for a large housing development. A lot of the remaining land close to Glasgow and Edinburgh is greenbelt or otherwise unsuitable to build housing on (e.g. close proximity to hazardous industrial plants).
House prices are high in both the Edinburgh metropolitan area and the Strathclyde conurbation these days - a lot of Glasgow has been gentrified massively and there are plenty of well paying jobs in the city itself especially.

I don't believe that building homes in Longannet will lessen demand on Edinburgh or Glasgow. It's in the middle of nowhere.

Projects like Balgray are much better sense, building homes where people want them, on existing railway lines, which will see a brand new, expanded train fleet in the next 5 years.

Is Balgray a greenfield site? It won't be cheap to build the housing in volumes that the Central Belt needs if it's all on greenfield sites.

Just up the road at Muirend they’re hitting £200K now.

Precisely. Glasgow and its travel to work area are no longer cheap places to buy.

 

[The exile]

If there's a level change then it'll need lifts or ramps. Doesn't matter which way is up.

Particularly if you’re using ramps, it does, because an underpass doesn’t have to go anything like as far down as a footbridge has to go up.
That’s of course assuming a station at ground level.

 

[perstreperous]

Surely one of the simplest reopenings would be Grangemouth? The line is already electrified and Glasgow Queen Street to Falkirk Grahamston services turn around on the Grangemouth branch line already. You'd perhaps even be able to reopen without any additional train units needed as the Queen Street - Grahamston services tend to lay over on the Grangemouth branch for a good 20-30 minutes. Plus, it ticks similar boxes to Leven - an area of socio-economic deprivation with relatively poor transport links. Seems like a no-brainer.

I'm surprised nobody followed this up ... but, as someone who spent their first 18 years there, the problem is that the (notional) railway station would be in the wrong place - near the town centre. Most housing is not near the town centre; Grangemouth is enormously spread out, as it is built on reclaimed land which cannot support buildings above a few storeys, and a lot of people would have a mile to a mile and a half to travel to a station. Re-routing the railway line would be impossible because it is boxed in by industry which, bluntly, cannot be disrupted because the area is deprived enough as it is

That said, a recent masterplan has a "cutout" for the railway station which is approximately where it used to be and at the back of a proposed revised town centre. (The town is in dire trouble, losing 15 percent of its population in 15 years, and, reading between the lines, that is because there is too much housing of types which people no longer want ... although the masterplan concentrates on rebuilding the town centre perhaps a secondary solution, involving large-scale demolition and rebuilding of that unwanted housing, could include some sort of re-routing of the line and a workable railway station).

 

[TrainViation]

Before 2020, there was a peak time run serving the corridor, albeit via the coast: 1N80 0712 SX Kirkcaldy - Glasgow QS and 1N79 1733 SX Glasgow QS - Markinch.

1N79 and 1N80 have now returned in the December timetable change, and can be found here:

Realtime Trains | 1N79 1910 Glasgow Queen Street to Dundee | 15/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 1N79 1910 departure from Glasgow Queen Street to Dundee on 15/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 1N80 1915 Dundee to Glasgow Queen Street | 15/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 1N80 1915 departure from Dundee to Glasgow Queen Street on 15/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk